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wynaire(at)citlink.net
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 Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:44 pm Post subject: LED heatsink material? |
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Hello All,
Your thoughts or lessons from experience:
I am mounting two (2) each 10Watt LED's (R/G color and white [6500k] in each wing tip, under a clear tip lens. The mounting plate (polished for reflectivity) can be copper or SS or aluminum. Which material is the best choice for conducting the LED heat away from the LED's?
Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Any other bits of related info are also appreciated.
Mike W.
LNC2 360 (at) 88% finished... with 88% to go 
[quote]
From: James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 6:31 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ebus Diode
On a related note, is there a way to determine if a heatsink is large enough?
I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020" aluminium -- half a dozen pieces of varying lengths, stacked and folded up at the ends to form fins. I've bolted it under the rectifier with some heatsink paste.
Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, but it would nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor...
Many thanks,
James
On 2 April 2013 16:38, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 09:56 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: | The drawing http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/Diode_Installation.pdf
From B and C shows both ~ (I don't have the correct symbol horizontal s with -) terminals powered from the main bus with the + going to the Ebus and - unused.
Question: I could run power from the main bus to either ~ terminal and power the Ebus?
Powering both ~ terminals gains a little redundancy to power the Ebus?
|
No 'redundancy' just a potential tiny improvement in
thermal modeling. Not a big deal one way or another.
Run main bus power to either one or both AC input
terminals, one wire from (+) to e-bus.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
| Quote: |
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:49 pm Post subject: LED heatsink material? |
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Hello Mike W.,
The short answer is copper. This is evidenced by each material's thermal conductivity, shown below in SI units:
Copper - 401 Watt/(meter x Kelvin)
Aluminum - 237 Watt/(meter x Kelvin)
Stainless steel - 16.7 Watt/(meter x Kelvin)
The above data came from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thermal_conductivities
Thermal conductivity is the property of a material to conduct heat. As you can see, copper conducts heat 1.7 times better than aluminum and 24 times better than a certain type of stainless steel. There are other things to consider but since your mounting plate is your reflector and you are stuck with its dimensions, form factor and coating. If you are looking for the best conductor, copper is the choice. This also assumes that you are not concerned with weight or corrosion.
Henador Titzoff
From: "wynaire(at)citlink.net" <wynaire(at)citlink.net>
To: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 4:43 PM
Subject: LED heatsink material?
Hello All,
Your thoughts or lessons from experience:
I am mounting two (2) each 10Watt LED's (R/G color and white [6500k] in each wing tip, under a clear tip lens. The mounting plate (polished for reflectivity) can be copper or SS or aluminum. Which material is the best choice for conducting the LED heat away from the LED's?
Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Any other bits of related info are also appreciated.
Mike W.
LNC2 360 (at) 88% finished... with 88% to go
[quote]
From: James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 6:31 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ebus Diode
On a related note, is there a way to determine if a heatsink is large enough?
I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020" aluminium -- half a dozen pieces of varying lengths, stacked and folded up at the ends to form fins. I've bolted it under the rectifier with some heatsink paste.
Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, but it would nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor...
Many thanks,
James
On 2 April 2013 16:38, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 09:56 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: | The drawing http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/Diode_Installation.pdf
From B and C shows both ~ (I don't have the correct symbol horizontal s with -) terminals powered from the main bus with the + going to the Ebus and - unused.
Question: I could run power from the main bus to either ~ terminal and power the Ebus?
Powering both ~ terminals gains a little redundancy to power the Ebus?
|
No 'redundancy' just a potential tiny improvement in
thermal modeling. Not a big deal one way or another.
Run main bus power to either one or both AC input
terminals, one wire from (+) to e-bus.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
| Quote: |
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
[b]
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retasker(at)optonline.net
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:51 pm Post subject: LED heatsink material? |
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Copper is best, then Aluminum then Steel.
Dick Tasker
wynaire(at)citlink.net wrote:
| Quote: | Hello All,
Your thoughts or lessons from experience:
I am mounting two (2) each 10Watt LED's (R/G color and white [6500k] in each wing tip, under a clear tip lens. The
mounting plate (polished for reflectivity) can be copper or SS or aluminum. Which material is the best choice for
conducting the LED heat away from the LED's?
Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Any other bits of related info are also appreciated.
Mike W.
LNC2 360 (at) 88% finished... with 88% to go
|
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james(at)etravel.org
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:09 am Post subject: LED heatsink material? |
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Hi Eric,
I'm missing something I think... Is there some more to be sent?
Many thanks,
James
On 4 April 2013 14:15, Eric M. Jones <emjones(at)charter.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
> Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, but it would nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor...
Tape this into your toolbox. These are for surfaces touched with a non-calloused finger, not ambients.
Cool: 100 degC
You can estimate between these numbers quite well.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397842#397842
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henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:01 am Post subject: LED heatsink material? |
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What Eric Jonez is saying, James, is to use your calibrated finger to determine if the heat sink is working. If you can touch the component without burning your finger, it's most likely okay. This must be done during a real test where the Essential Bus is loaded to its max. Wait for the current to heat the junction and stabilize the temp, meaning that it's reached a maximum temperature because heat is flowing from it to ambient air through several interfaces such as junction to leads and case, case to heat sink, and heat sink to air.
You could instrument the diode case to get a more accurate reading, but a calibrated finger is almost good enough. If it burns the hell out of you, then maybe you need a bigger heat sink.
Henador Titzoff
From: James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2013 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: Re: LED heatsink material?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org (james(at)etravel.org)>
Hi Eric,
I'm missing something I think... Is there some more to be sent?
Many thanks,
James
On 4 April 2013 14:15, Eric M. Jones <emjones(at)charter.net (emjones(at)charter.net)> wrote:
[quote] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net (emjones(at)charter.net)>
> Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, but it would nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor...
Tape this into your toolbox. These are for surfaces touched with a non-calloused finger, not ambients.
Cool: 100 degC
You can estimate between these numbers quite well.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397842#397842
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Eric M. Jones
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:07 am Post subject: Re: LED heatsink material? |
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| Quote: | Tape this into your toolbox. These are for surfaces touched with a non-calloused finger, not ambients.
Cool: 100 degC
You can estimate between these numbers quite well. |
There was some sort of error in this posting which involved the "more than" and "less than" symbols. I tried to delete it but it got through anyway. Here it is again (without the symbols):
Tape this into your toolbox. These are for metal surfaces touched with a non-calloused finger, not ambients.
Cool: 30 degC
Warm: 40 degC
Uncomfortably Hot: 50 degC
As hot as you can touch: 60 degC
Immediately painful: 70 degC
Will blister skin: 100 degC
You can estimate between these numbers quite well.
Matt: If you can delete the previous post I'd appreciate it.
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net |
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james(at)etravel.org
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:19 am Post subject: LED heatsink material? |
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Wow! That's another amazing bit of information. Thanks Eric!
I'm guessing that HTML formatting hid the middle bit of content with
the less than and greater than signs.
Did it originally say: "Cool less than 30C" and "Will blister skin
greater than 100C"?
Thanks again.
James
On 5 April 2013 14:07, Eric M. Jones <emjones(at)charter.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
> Tape this into your toolbox. These are for surfaces touched with a non-calloused finger, not ambients.
>
> Cool: 100 degC
>
> You can estimate between these numbers quite well.
There was some sort of error in this posting which involved the "more than" and "less than" symbols. I tried to delete it but it got through anyway. Here it is again (without the symbols):
Tape this into your toolbox. These are for metal surfaces touched with a non-calloused finger, not ambients.
Cool: 30 degC
Warm: 40 degC
Uncomfortably Hot: 50 degC
As hot as you can touch: 60 degC
Immediately painful: 70 degC
Will blister skin: 100 degC
You can estimate between these numbers quite well.
Matt: If you can delete the previous post I'd appreciate it.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397893#397893
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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rv8iator(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:42 am Post subject: LED heatsink material? |
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Eric...
Great applied 'finger on' indicator scale. Â And makes access to check those buried components a breeze!
Verified with my IR non contact thermometer... Â I now have a NISTÂ calibration certificate on my right index finger.
Chris Stone
do not archive
On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 6:07 AM, Eric M. Jones <emjones(at)charter.net (emjones(at)charter.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net (emjones(at)charter.net)>
> Tape this into your toolbox. These are for surfaces touched with a non-calloused finger, not ambients.
>
> Cool: 100 degC
>
> You can estimate between these numbers quite well.
There was some sort of error in this posting which involved the "more than" and "less than" symbols. I tried to delete it but it got through anyway. Here it is again (without the symbols):
Tape this into your toolbox. These are for metal surfaces touched with a non-calloused finger, not ambients.
Cool: Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 30 degC
Warm: Â Â Â Â Â Â 40 degC
Uncomfortably Hot: 50 degC
As hot as you can touch: 60 degC
Immediately painful: 70 degC
Will blister skin: Â Â Â Â Â 100 degC
You can estimate between these numbers quite well.
Matt: If you can delete the previous post I'd appreciate it.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
[url=tel:%28508%29%20764-2072](508) 764-2072[/url]
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397893#397893
===========
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ric-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
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k">http://forums.matronics.com
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wynaire(at)citlink.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:50 pm Post subject: LED heatsink material? |
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Hernandor, et al...
Sorry forlate note of appreciated advice. Your replies had been routed to a seldom opened spam box.
Thanks again,
Mike W.
[quote]
From: Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com>
To: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED heatsink material?
Hello Mike W.,
The short answer is copper. This is evidenced by each material's thermal conductivity, shown below in SI units:
Copper - 401 Watt/(meter x Kelvin)
Aluminum - 237 Watt/(meter x Kelvin)
Stainless steel - 16.7 Watt/(meter x Kelvin)
The above data came from: [url=]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thermal_conductivities[/url]
Thermal conductivity is the property of a material to conduct heat. As you can see, copper conducts heat 1.7 times better than aluminum and 24 times better than a certain type of stainless steel. There are other things to consider but since your mounting plate is your reflector and you are stuck with its dimensions, form factor and coating. If you are looking for the best conductor, copper is the choice. This also assumes that you are not concerned with weight or corrosion.
Henador Titzoff
From: "wynaire(at)citlink.net" <wynaire(at)citlink.net>
To: "aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com" <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 4:43 PM
Subject: LED heatsink material?
Hello All,
Your thoughts or lessons from experience:
I am mounting two (2) each 10Watt LED's (R/G color and white [6500k] in each wing tip, under a clear tip lens. The mounting plate (polished for reflectivity) can be copper or SS or aluminum. Which material is the best choice for conducting the LED heat away from the LED's?
Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Any other bits of related info are also appreciated.
Mike W.
LNC2 360 (at) 88% finished... with 88% to go
| Quote: |
From: James Kilford <james(at)etravel.org>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 6:31 AM
Subject: Re: Ebus Diode
On a related note, is there a way to determine if a heatsink is large enough?
I made a heatsink out of some scrap .020" aluminium -- half a dozen pieces of varying lengths, stacked and folded up at the ends to form fins. I've bolted it under the rectifier with some heatsink paste.
Seems like quite a lot of aluminium, and plenty of surface area, but it would nice to find a way of evaluating its effectiveness... other than waiting for the smell of burning semiconductor...
Many thanks,
James
On 2 April 2013 16:38, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 09:56 AM 4/2/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: | The drawing [url=]http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/Diode_Installation.pdf[/url]
From B and C shows both ~ (I don't have the correct symbol horizontal s with -) terminals powered from the main bus with the + going to the Ebus and - unused.
Question: I could run power from the main bus to either ~ terminal and power the Ebus?
Powering both ~ terminals gains a little redundancy to power the Ebus?
|
No 'redundancy' just a potential tiny improvement in
thermal modeling. Not a big deal one way or another.
Run main bus power to either one or both AC input
terminals, one wire from (+) to e-bus.
Bob . . .
Bob . . .
| Quote: |
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
nics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
tronics.com
nics.com/contribution
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[b]
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