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gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: Experimental IFR w/o a certified GPS (NO!) |
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Well the author of the article did not bother to check with the FAA.
You can NOT navigate IFR with sole ref to GPS without an IFR GPS,
period end of story.
Phd CFI? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. That is funny.
I suppose if you can go thru the process that proves to the FAA that
the unit meets the TSO than yes you can use it. Ask the rocket
scientist if he has done this. Fact is YOU can't meet the TSO spec
with any handheld GPS. Now if you are talking about panel mount
GPS, why not buy a used IFR GPS which are CHEAP.
Here is a short list of IFR GPS, most with both enroute and approach
capability I came up with. These are rebuilt/overhauled/reconditioned
prices from an avionics dealer. You will find these half the price used
from individuals.
I find these on eBay for less than $1000, some well under this price.
Now you going to deal with the FAA to TSO your non TSO'ed GPS?
Right.
UPS "AT" GX-50 $2,500
UPS GX-55R $2000; no approach/enroute-term only
UPS GX-60/COM $3,000
UPS GX-65/COM $2,000; no approach/enroute-term only
Honeywell Bendix/King KLN-89B $2,200
Honeywell Bendix/King KLN-90B $2,500
Honeywell Bendix/King KLN-94 $4,700
GARMIN GPS-155 TSO $2,000
GARMIN GPS-155XL TSO $2,400
GNC-300XLTSO$2,900 (IFR GPS Enroute/Appch/COM)
GNC-300 TSO $2,300 (same as above but XL has better LCD display)
II MORROW 2001GPS IFR $1,900 (lowest priced Enroute/Appch IFR GPS)
TRIMBLE TNL-2000 APPROACH "Plus"
NORTHSTAR M-3 APPROACH $1,900
This whole subject of short cuts and pinching pennies in IFR flight
makes no sense to me as an approach to flying, much less IFR. If
a few dollars is a big deal, are you going to pop for current nav
data bases? Personally if I was outfitting my RV-7 IFR, I would
have traditional gnd base nav, VOR/LOC/ILS and use a hand
held GPS for situational awareness. It's cheaper to buy approach
plates and enroute charts as needed than electronic nav data
renew subscriptions.
Deems: Don't waste your time; get an early generation IFR GPS and
CDI. You can certainly back it up with a handheld GPS with a color
display. You don't need to buy a $8,000 IFR GPS with a map and com.
They are nice but a early Gen IFR GPS with indicator can be had on
eBay for well under $2,000. FORGET FORGET EVER EVER
using a handheld GPS device for IFR, ever.
George M.
ATP-B737/B757/B767/RV-4/RV-7
CFI/CFII/MEI with a Masters, Mechanical Engineering
[quote]posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net (deemsdavis(at)cox.net)>
I recently read an article posted on Direct2. website
http://www.direct2avionics.com/pdfs/Using_GPS_for_IFR_flight.pd by a
PhD CFII that concludes that for EXPERIMENTAL aircraft, it was not
necessary for the aircraft to be equipped with a CERTIFIED GPS receiver
to legally file and fly IFR, PROVIDED that you, the pilot/mfg can
evaluate the GPS functionality, and find it provides all of the
necessary pilot input (as defined in the TSO) for IFR flight.
This sounded like it was worth looking into. I verified this opinion
with a competitor of Direct2. So off I go to study TSO-C146 the
Standard
document for WAAS GPS, unfortunately there is nothing in the document
regarding functional requirements other than a reference to:
RTCA/DO-229B (which I learned has since been superceeded w/
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rtitsworth
Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Detroit, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:51 pm Post subject: Experimental IFR w/o a certified GPS (NO!) |
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George,
I do not have a horse in this race, but I believe you’ve missed the point of the original article.
<![if !supportLists]>1- <![endif]>The article does not refer to handhelds (but you mention those multiple times).
<![if !supportLists]>2- <![endif]>I do not believe the point is about being cheep. (the article was from the Direct-2 / Chelton folks – their equipment is at (and/or near) the very top of the line (cost and function).
<![if !supportLists]>3- <![endif]>I do not believe just having a “$1000 ebay” TSO’d GPS unit on board is enough. The installation itself is also of concern – especially for approaches. For example, coupling to a CDI mounted within the pilots normal scan vision.
Suppose you had a dual screen direct-2-avionics system (with a coupled Freeflight WASS GPS). Most of these I’ve seen result in pretty impressive panels (appearance and function). Suppose you had a panel full of other similar high-end / high-quality avionics equipment (engine monitor, backup gyro, aoa sensor, multi-function annunciator, etc).
Now to the point… Where would you put your old, used, monochrome, $1000 ebay TSO’d GPS unit? Do you really want it in the center of your panel? What would you move off to the side/bottom to make room for it? Given that the Direct2/Freeflight has the same features/functions (including RAIM, WAAS, etc, do you even want the ebay unit in your plane at all? Are you going to spend the $ to keep your “ebay GPS” database current - in addition to the database in your Chelton/Direct-2 system? During flight, are you going to “double program” your flight path into the ebay unit (assuming your focus is on the Direct-2/Chelton PFD).
Outside of the advantage of having an independent backup, I might be able to argue that the ebay unit is a workload distraction and thus perhaps not a wise/safe decision (in this situation).
Thus, if your ebay unit’s only/primary/true purpose was to satisfy FAA legal requirements, it would be prudent to determine if those legal requirements could be satisfied with the Direct-2 (and Free Flight) setup (in an experimental aircraft).
Rick
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 11:07 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Experimental IFR w/o a certified GPS (NO!)
Well the author of the article did not bother to check with the FAA.
You can NOT navigate IFR with sole ref to GPS without an IFR GPS,
period end of story.
Phd CFI? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. That is funny.
I suppose if you can go thru the process that proves to the FAA that
the unit meets the TSO than yes you can use it. Ask the rocket
scientist if he has done this. Fact is YOU can't meet the TSO spec
with any handheld GPS. Now if you are talking about panel mount
GPS, why not buy a used IFR GPS which are CHEAP.
Here is a short list of IFR GPS, most with both enroute and approach
capability I came up with. These are rebuilt/overhauled/reconditioned
prices from an avionics dealer. You will find these half the price used
from individuals.
I find these on eBay for less than $1000, some well under this price.
Now you going to deal with the FAA to TSO your non TSO'ed GPS?
Right.
UPS "AT" GX-50 $2,500
UPS GX-55R $2000; no approach/enroute-term only
UPS GX-60/COM $3,000
UPS GX-65/COM $2,000; no approach/enroute-term only
Honeywell Bendix/King KLN-89B $2,200
Honeywell Bendix/King KLN-90B $2,500
Honeywell Bendix/King KLN-94 $4,700
GARMIN GPS-155 TSO $2,000
GARMIN GPS-155XL TSO $2,400
GNC-300XLTSO$2,900 (IFR GPS Enroute/Appch/COM)
GNC-300 TSO $2,300 (same as above but XL has better LCD display)
II MORROW 2001GPS IFR $1,900 (lowest priced Enroute/Appch IFR GPS)
TRIMBLE TNL-2000 APPROACH "Plus"
NORTHSTAR M-3 APPROACH $1,900
This whole subject of short cuts and pinching pennies in IFR flight
makes no sense to me as an approach to flying, much less IFR. If
a few dollars is a big deal, are you going to pop for current nav
data bases? Personally if I was outfitting my RV-7 IFR, I would
have traditional gnd base nav, VOR/LOC/ILS and use a hand
held GPS for situational awareness. It's cheaper to buy approach
plates and enroute charts as needed than electronic nav data
renew subscriptions.
Deems: Don't waste your time; get an early generation IFR GPS and
CDI. You can certainly back it up with a handheld GPS with a color
display. You don't need to buy a $8,000 IFR GPS with a map and com.
They are nice but a early Gen IFR GPS with indicator can be had on
eBay for well under $2,000. FORGET FORGET EVER EVER
using a handheld GPS device for IFR, ever.
George M.
ATP-B737/B757/B767/RV-4/RV-7
CFI/CFII/MEI with a Masters, Mechanical Engineering
>posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net (deemsdavis(at)cox.net)>
>
>I recently read an article posted on Direct2. website
>http://www.direct2avionics.com/pdfs/Using_GPS_for_IFR_flight.pd by a
>PhD CFII that concludes that for EXPERIMENTAL aircraft, it was not
>necessary for the aircraft to be equipped with a CERTIFIED GPS receiver
>to legally file and fly IFR, PROVIDED that you, the pilot/mfg can
>evaluate the GPS functionality, and find it provides all of the
>necessary pilot input (as defined in the TSO) for IFR flight.
>
>This sounded like it was worth looking into. I verified this opinion
>with a competitor of Direct2. So off I go to study TSO-C146 the
>Standard
>document for WAAS GPS, unfortunately there is nothing in the document
>regarding functional requirements other than a reference to:
>RTCA/DO-229B (which I learned has since been superceeded w/
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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