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SIDESLIP
Joined: 14 Oct 2012
Posts: 78
Location: CYOO
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 Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 8:07 pm Post subject: FAA Special Review Team final report.... Have questions... |
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So I read all 40 pages thoroughly, and much of it does make sense. It appears to be a series of compounding issues that simply escalated an already borderline wing design.
My question is this... Does anyone know if the COMPLETE Bravo mods were tested for flutter, strength etc? The FAA reccomended that they (Zenith) run through further testing for structure and flutter.
Here's where I stand....
I own a 601XL-B that climbs like a rocket, and cruises 100-110kts happily, and the aircraft seems to perform great. HOWEVER, this IS my first Homebuilt, and I didn't buy it. I am highly mechanically enclined, so I know mechanics and the the basic engineering behind it all.
My searches turned up very little, both on the net, and on here. For example, my V-Speeds are as follows...
Vso- 44kts
Vs - 51kts
Va- 85kts
Vno- 113kts
VNE - 140kts
VX - 58kts
VY - 60kts
I've found many MANY different versions of the numbers, and that concerns me. After reading the FAA report, Va should be 80-82kts, Vno 103kts or lower. The VNE seemed to be the most consistent at 140kts (16mph)
The rudder upper bolts seem to wear and get play In them, there is flap stops, which I have never seen on a single zodiac yet, and haven't any idea what they look like. There are just so many variables.....
Is there anything that anyone can say to help ease my mind? What does the general concensus say about this airplane, both before and after the Bravo Mod? How sloppy do the cables need to get to become a hazard? My bottom line is that I am DEEPLY in love with flying the airplane, it's performance and slickness! It's a sexy looking airplane, and I get stopped for photo ops everywhere I go. It's amazing. The performance is unreal!
BUT, and a BIG BIG BUT here.....
How safe is this airplane? I have a G-Meter so I can monitor so that I'm not stressing the airframe. I don't jerk the controls, I'm smooth with them. I don't push the airplane or "hot dog" it. I just fly it like I would a 152. I can see how one would get in trouble quick though, because it IS so much fun to fly!
But at the end of the day, can I feel safe? Will it truthfully try to kill me? I've got three little ones that rely on me. Two 4 year old daughters and a 7 week old baby boy.
I see tons of videos from Europe with guys flying these 601's XL's and HD's with the same power plant as me, same set up, and they seem just fine. They have a blast it seems!
Chad..... Fighting to put my mind to rest......
Or sell this and buy a 152! Lol. At least I know they don't break-up in flight.
Thanks in advance!
Chad
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C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B |
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SIDESLIP
Joined: 14 Oct 2012
Posts: 78
Location: CYOO
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: FAA Special Review Team final report.... Have questions. |
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***Edit*** I didn't BUILD it. Friggen autocorrect!
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benson.barry(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:42 pm Post subject: FAA Special Review Team final report.... Have questions... |
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Hi, I had the same concerns about the efficacy of the mods. However, those concerns no longer exist as I have flown my plane, read the articles, and contacted such people as Steve Flatum and Paul Hamilton. (See You Tube videos under their names. Also see You Tube video interview with, I believe, Michael Heintz.) I think a simple control tension gauge sold at Aircraft Spruce and a ballistic parachute, which can be retrofitted to the 601XL, would go a long way in reassuring you that the plane is safe. I have great confidence that the B mod has worked to correct any problem with the wing structure; no 601XL, which has had the B mod completed, has been involved in any incident relating to wing failure that I know of. After all, the 601XL has been the most scrutinized light sport of all light sports-- the FAA, outside engineers, testing in Germany, etc. My plane was factory built at AMD and when I purchased it, i had the parachute installed. I feel very safe and secure flying the airplane, but I know that if any issue arises, that the parachute is available. Barry
On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 12:07 AM, SIDESLIP <Chad2007(at)rogers.com (Chad2007(at)rogers.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "SIDESLIP" <Chad2007(at)rogers.com (Chad2007(at)rogers.com)>
So I read all 40 pages thoroughly, and much of it does make sense. It appears to be a series of compounding issues that simply escalated an already borderline wing design.
My question is this... Does anyone know if the COMPLETE Bravo mods were tested for flutter, strength etc? The FAA reccomended that they (Zenith) run through further testing for structure and flutter.
Here's where I stand....
I own a 601XL-B that climbs like a rocket, and cruises 100-110kts happily, and the aircraft seems to perform great. HOWEVER, this IS my first Homebuilt, and I didn't buy it. I am highly mechanically enclined, so I know mechanics and the the basic engineering behind it all.
My searches turned up very little, both on the net, and on here. For example, my V-Speeds are as follows...
Vso- 44kts
Vs - 51kts
Va- 85kts
Vno- 113kts
VNE - 140kts
VX - 58kts
VY - 60kts
I've found many MANY different versions of the numbers, and that concerns me. After reading the FAA report, Va should be 80-82kts, Vno 103kts or lower. The VNE seemed to be the most consistent at 140kts (16mph)
The rudder upper bolts seem to wear and get play In them, there is flap stops, which I have never seen on a single zodiac yet, and haven't any idea what they look like. There are just so many variables.....
Is there anything that anyone can say to help ease my mind? What does the general concensus say about this airplane, both before and after the Bravo Mod? How sloppy do the cables need to get to become a hazard? My bottom line is that I am DEEPLY in love with flying the airplane, it's performance and slickness! It's a sexy looking airplane, and I get stopped for photo ops everywhere I go. It's amazing. The performance is unreal!
BUT, and a BIG BIG BUT here.....
How safe is this airplane? I have a G-Meter so I can monitor so that I'm not stressing the airframe. I don't jerk the controls, I'm smooth with them. I don't push the airplane or "hot dog" it. I just fly it like I would a 152. I can see how one would get in trouble quick though, because it IS so much fun to fly!
But at the end of the day, can I feel safe? Will it truthfully try to kill me? I've got three little ones that rely on me. Two 4 year old daughters and a 7 week old baby boy.
I see tons of videos from Europe with guys flying these 601's XL's and HD's with the same power plant as me, same set up, and they seem just fine. They have a blast it seems!
Chad..... Fighting to put my mind to rest......
Or sell this and buy a 152! Lol. At least I know they don't break-up in flight.
Thanks in advance!
Chad
--------
C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401365#401365
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st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
[b]
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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 9:13 am Post subject: FAA Special Review Team final report.... Have questions... |
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Keep in mind that the original factory demonstrator/prototype flew 1700 hours without the mod with absolutely no evidence of a problem. And this airplane was flown to air shows all around the country and flown by many prospective customers with no experience in the airplane. On one trip to Sun'N'Fun, I flew my pre-modification airplane through turbulence so severe I think it would have thrown me out of the plane if I hadn't been strapped in. There was no way to hold altitude, I just slowed down to about 80 kts and rode it out. The airplane came through undamaged. The modification kit has almost certainly increased the safety margin of the airplane.
No airplane is 100% safe and if you try hard enough, you can rip the wings off almost any airplane. Fly it within the design limits and keep it well maintained and you should be as safe as you can be in any light airplane.
As far as the V speeds you list, your So and Vs numbers appear to be in the wrong units - the numbers look correct for miles per hour. In any case, these numbers may vary a bit from one airplane to another because no two homebuilts are identical. And most of these numbers are valid for only one specific set of conditions: standard sea level atmosphere at gross weight. Stall speeds and maneuvering speed will all decrease with a decrease in weight. And remember: flying at a speed less than Va does not mean you can't break the airplane, it just means that in level flight in heavy turbulence the wing will stall before it breaks. If the turbulence is severe enough, even that isn't a guarantee (stay away from thunderstorms).
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus re-drive.
On May 26, 2013, at 12:07 AM, SIDESLIP <Chad2007(at)rogers.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
My searches turned up very little, both on the net, and on here. For example, my V-Speeds are as follows...
Vso- 44kts
Vs - 51kts
Va- 85kts
Vno- 113kts
VNE - 140kts
VX - 58kts
VY - 60kts
But at the end of the day, can I feel safe? Will it truthfully try to kill me? I've got three little ones that rely on me. Two 4 year old daughters and a 7 week old baby boy.
I see tons of videos from Europe with guys flying these 601's XL's and HD's with the same power plant as me, same set up, and they seem just fine. They have a blast it seems!
Chad
--------
C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B
|
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List |
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_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive. |
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SIDESLIP
Joined: 14 Oct 2012
Posts: 78
Location: CYOO
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: FAA Special Review Team final report.... Have questions. |
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Barry, Bryan:
Those airspeeds are what was posted via the AMD revised POH in 2009. In KTS. Do the numbers seem wrong? That's what they posted, and what comes up when searched anywhere.
As for the BRS, I don't have one, and I'd think one would be $10,000 or more to install here in Canada. Not that my life isn't worth it, but with the other expenses involved in purchasing the plane, there isn't any money left over. Lol.
The consensus that I seem to be getting is that since the Bravo mods, there haven't been any failures related to structure. I'd be interested to know if that IS in FACT the case. I haven't read anywhere that a B has even crashed. I could be wrong. Like I mentioned, I think based on all the research I've read/talked about really came down to a multitude of compounding factors likely beginning with a less then capable main spar wing structure. Compound this with incorrect airspeeds, lively spirited pilotage, and balance issues, and you've got a recipe for disaster. Many people swear that it was stricktly a flutter issue. That WOULD make sense, since in a lot of cases the airplanes were in level flight, no unusual attitudes then just suddenly without warning broke up. I know that once flutter begins, it's only a few seconds before its all over. I've seen it with model airplanes, and from when flutter begins, the failure is almost immediate. My airplane has the counter balances. I just hope and pray the airplane is A-Ok. I got a pretty decent deal I believe, and probably because the reputation brought down her value. Maybe? Maybe not.....
Thanks!
Chad.
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List |
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_________________
C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B |
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benson.barry(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 4:14 pm Post subject: FAA Special Review Team final report.... Have questions... |
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http://www.newplane.com/amd_downloads/MASTER_AMD_POH_601_650_Nov-09_at_1320lbs.pdf has the AMD pilot operating manual. This is what I have used for all numbers. Hope this helps, Barry
On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 6:04 PM, SIDESLIP <Chad2007(at)rogers.com (Chad2007(at)rogers.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "SIDESLIP" <Chad2007(at)rogers.com (Chad2007(at)rogers.com)>
Barry, Bryan:
Those airspeeds are what was posted via the AMD revised POH in 2009. In KTS. Do the numbers seem wrong? That's what they posted, and what comes up when searched anywhere.
As for the BRS, I don't have one, and I'd think one would be $10,000 or more to install here in Canada. Not that my life isn't worth it, but with the other expenses involved in purchasing the plane, there isn't any money left over. Lol.
The consensus that I seem to be getting is that since the Bravo mods, there haven't been any failures related to structure. I'd be interested to know if that IS in FACT the case. I haven't read anywhere that a B has even crashed. I could be wrong. Like I mentioned, I think based on all the research I've read/talked about really came down to a multitude of compounding factors likely beginning with a less then capable main spar wing structure. Compound this with incorrect airspeeds, lively spirited pilotage, and balance issues, and you've got a recipe for disaster. Many people swear that it was stricktly a flutter issue. That WOULD make sense, since in a lot of cases the airplanes were in level flight, no unusual attitudes then just suddenly without warning broke up. I know that once flutter begins, it's only a few seconds before its all over. I've seen it with model airplanes, and from when flutter begins, the failure is almost immediate. My airplane has the counter balances.!
I just hope and pray the airplane is A-Ok. I got a pretty decent deal I believe, and probably because the reputation brought down her value. Maybe? Maybe not.....
Thanks!
Chad.
--------
C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401394#401394
===========
st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
[b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List |
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SIDESLIP
Joined: 14 Oct 2012
Posts: 78
Location: CYOO
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| Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: FAA Special Review Team final report.... Have questions. |
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Barry;
Thanks! That's the one I've based my numbers off. Mine are slightly off.
Vc should be called VNO. But whatever. So 108kts Vno
I'll edit my numbers.
Thanks!
Chad
| | - The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List |
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_________________
C-GYXQ. 912ULS. 601XL-B |
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