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stan_tew(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 5:39 am Post subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/03/13 |
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Another place to look for debris while you have the carb in your hand is the inlet line. Although the id of the fuel line is 1/4 going over the hose barb down at the bottom where the fuel actually flows into the float bowl the orifice is MUCH smaller. Bits of debris can cover the orifice preventing any fuel from entering the float bowl. The other cylinder mayor may not be okay but the engine will not run enough to produce power on 1 cylinder. Check both!
I say this from experience. I had to land my Kitfox II in the trees due to such obstruction. I was unhurt but the plane was badly damaged
STAN 2
From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List <rotaxengines-list-digest(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2013 2:00 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/03/13
*
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=========================
Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter=2013-05-03&Archive=RotaxEngines
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter=2013-05-03&Archive=RotaxEngines
=======================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
=======================
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RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Fri 05/03/13: 1
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:05 AM - Carb bowl obstruction - Don't be stranded (Roger Lee)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
Time: 07:05:27 AM PST US
Subject: Carb bowl obstruction - Don't be stranded
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>
Hi Guys,
Your flying along and the engine looses power to about 3800-4000 rpm and runs rough.
It could be a couple of things, but first suspect a carb bowl main jet obstruction.
Here is a simple tip that may keep you flying and get your rpm back
and if that fails how to do a self rescue and not be stranded and all you need
is a screwdriver. You can do this fix and be back in the air in 30 minutes.
I have done this and know it works.
The debris may never be detected during a run up on the ground. There usually isn't
enough fuel flow for a good main jet suction and no sloshing or turbulence
of the fuel in the carb bowl. In cruise flight you now have a good fuel flow,
turbulence within the bowl and plenty of upward suction to draw that piece
of debris right up against the main jet.
Here is an in air fix you can try, but there is no guarantee. While you are doing
this next maneuver you should be looking for an appropriate landing spot. Either
an airfield or a decent road.
Your first instinct is to go full throttle to get more rpm.That only holds the
debris harder against the main jet, but it is human nature to try for more rpm.
Once that fails and providing you have a little altitude pull the throttle back
to idle and glide for about 15 seconds with a little side to side "S" turns.
When the throttle is back at idle the main jet is not in play and the suction
is gone allowing the debris to hopefully fall away and settle to a lower point.
The idle jet is separate from the main jet. After your 15 second glide slowly
advance the throttle back to cruise rpm and head for an airport.
If this in air idle rpm fix doesn't work then continue to a safe landing.
Once on the ground then take off the upper cowl. Pop the carb retention spring
off, then loosen the carb flange screw and push the carb back out of the rubber
flange socket. It's snug so push hard. If you have the older stainless steel
fuel supply lines you can now lift the carb upward enough to clear the drip tray
to take the carb bowl off. If you have the red Teflon fuel lines all the better
because you can lift the carbs and rotate them out towards you to have a
little better access to the bowl and bale. If you don't have a drip tray then
this is real easy.
Now push or pry with your screwdriver the carb bowl bale back towards the firewall.
Drop the carb bowl and look for your debris and toss the bad fuel out. Put
the carb bowl back in place making sure it fits into its mounting outside edge
grove and pull the bale back in place. Be mindful of the bowl gasket. Push
the carb back into the rubber flange until you hear and feel it kind of seat in
place. You will feel it snap in place and the carb will look like it is in far
enough that it can't go any further. Tighten the rubber flange retention ring
screw and do the same procedure to the other side. Once both are done put the
cowl on and test run at full throttle for about 5 minutes.
If you have the stock Rotax airbox then you will need to loosen the airbox side
rubber flange and slide it out of the way to push the carb back out of the rubber
flange. So both sides of the carb gets the rubber flange loosened.
You should now be ready to take off and head for home.
It works.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JdS7OtbcxwY
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399904#399904
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEnginp; --> http:========================
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hgmckay
Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:25 am Post subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/03/13 |
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|
Wouldn’t a gascolator and proper sized filter upstream of the engine (between the main fuel tank and the carbs) prevent this problem?
Hugh G. McKay III, P.E.
Allegro 2000
Rotax 912 UL
From: Stan Tew (stan_tew(at)yahoo.com)
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 9:39 AM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/03/13
Another place to look for debris while you have the carb in your hand is the inlet line. Although the id of the fuel line is 1/4 going over the hose barb down at the bottom where the fuel actually flows into the float bowl the orifice is MUCH smaller. Bits of debris can cover the orifice preventing any fuel from entering the float bowl. The other cylinder mayor may not be okay but the engine will not run enough to produce power on 1 cylinder. Check both!
I say this from experience. I had to land my Kitfox II in the trees due to such obstruction. I was unhurt but the plane was badly damaged
STAN 2
From: RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>
To: RotaxEngines-List Digest List <rotaxengines-list-digest(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 4, 2013 2:00 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/03/13
*
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=========================
Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter=2013-05-03&Archive=RotaxEngines
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter=2013-05-03&Archive=RotaxEngines
=======================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
=======================
----------------------------------------------------------
RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Fri 05/03/13: 1
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:05 AM - Carb bowl obstruction - Don't be stranded (Roger Lee)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
Time: 07:05:27 AM PST US
Subject: Carb bowl obstruction - Don't be stranded
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>
Hi Guys,
Your flying along and the engine looses power to about 3800-4000 rpm and runs rough.
It could be a couple of things, but first suspect a carb bowl main jet obstruction.
Here is a simple tip that may keep you flying and get your rpm back
and if that fails how to do a self rescue and not be stranded and all you need
is a screwdriver. You can do this fix and be back in the air in 30 minutes.
I have done this and know it works.
The debris may never be detected during a run up on the ground. There usually isn't
enough fuel flow for a good main jet suction and no sloshing or turbulence
of the fuel in the carb bowl. In cruise flight you now have a good fuel flow,
turbulence within the bowl and plenty of upward suction to draw that piece
of debris right up against the main jet.
Here is an in air fix you can try, but there is no guarantee. While you are doing
this next maneuver you should be looking for an appropriate landing spot. Either
an airfield or a decent road.
Your first instinct is to go full throttle to get more rpm.That only holds the
debris harder against the main jet, but it is human nature to try for more rpm.
Once that fails and providing you have a little altitude pull the throttle back
to idle and glide for about 15 seconds with a little side to side "S" turns.
When the throttle is back at idle the main jet is not in play and the suction
is gone allowing the debris to hopefully fall away and settle to a lower point.
The idle jet is separate from the main jet. After your 15 second glide slowly
advance the throttle back to cruise rpm and head for an airport.
If this in air idle rpm fix doesn't work then continue to a safe landing.
Once on the ground then take off the upper cowl. Pop the carb retention spring
off, then loosen the carb flange screw and push the carb back out of the rubber
flange socket. It's snug so push hard. If you have the older stainless steel
fuel supply lines you can now lift the carb upward enough to clear the drip tray
to take the carb bowl off. If you have the red Teflon fuel lines all the better
because you can lift the carbs and rotate them out towards you to have a
little better access to the bowl and bale. If you don't have a drip tray then
this is real easy.
Now push or pry with your screwdriver the carb bowl bale back towards the firewall.
Drop the carb bowl and look for your debris and toss the bad fuel out. Put
the carb bowl back in place making sure it fits into its mounting outside edge
grove and pull the bale back in place. Be mindful of the bowl gasket. Push
the carb back into the rubber flange until you hear and feel it kind of seat in
place. You will feel it snap in place and the carb will look like it is in far
enough that it can't go any further. Tighten the rubber flange retention ring
screw and do the same procedure to the other side. Once both are done put the
cowl on and test run at full throttle for about 5 minutes.
If you have the stock Rotax airbox then you will need to loosen the airbox side
rubber flange and slide it out of the way to push the carb back out of the rubber
flange. So both sides of the carb gets the rubber flange loosened.
You should now be ready to take off and head for home.
It works.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JdS7OtbcxwY
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399904#399904
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEnginp; --> http:========================
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:39 am Post subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/03/13 |
|
|
Stan:
Sorry for your "experience" and glad you walked away from it.
But why does Rotax have so many stupid design faults?
I know it is not your fault, but is there a difference between Rotax experimental and Rotax certified?
Barry
[quote] Time: 07:05:27 AM PST US
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Carb bowl obstruction - Don't be stranded
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>
Hi Guys,
Your flying along and the engine looses power to about 3800-4000 rpm and runs rough.
It could be a couple of things, but first suspect a carb bowl main jet obstruction.
Here is a simple tip that may keep you flying and get your rpm back
and if that fails how to do a self rescue and not be stranded and all you need
is a screwdriver. You can do this fix and be back in the air in 30 minutes.
I have done this and know it works.
The debris may never be detected during a run up on the ground. There usually isn't
enough fuel flow for a good main jet suction and no sloshing or turbulence
of the fuel in the carb bowl. In cruise flight you now have a good fuel flow,
turbulence within the bowl and plenty of upward suction to draw that piece
of debris right up against the main jet.
Here is an in air fix you can try, but there is no guarantee. While you are doing
this next maneuver you should be looking for an appropriate landing spot. Either
an airfield or a decent road.
Your first instinct is to go full throttle to get more rpm.That only holds the
debris harder against the main jet, but it is human nature to try for more rpm.
Once that fails and providing you have a little altitude pull the throttle back
to idle and glide for about 15 seconds with a little side to side "S" turns.
When the throttle is back at idle the main jet is not in play and the suction
is gone allowing the debris to hopefully fall away and settle to a lower point.
The idle jet is separate from the main jet. After your 15 second glide slowly
advance the throttle back to cruise rpm and head for an airport.
If this in air idle rpm fix doesn't work then continue to a safe landing.
Once on the ground then take off the upper cowl. Pop the carb retention spring
off, then loosen the carb flange screw and push the carb back out of the rubber
flange socket. It's snug so push hard. If you have the older stainless steel
fuel supply lines you can now lift the carb upward enough to clear the drip tray
to take the carb bowl off. If you have the red Teflon fuel lines all the better
because you can lift the carbs and rotate them out towards you to have a
little better access to the bowl and bale. If you don't have a drip tray then
this is real easy.
Now push or pry with your screwdriver the carb bowl bale back towards the firewall.
Drop the carb bowl and look for your debris and toss the bad fuel out. Put
the carb bowl back in place making sure it fits into its mounting outside edge
grove and pull the bale back in place. Be mindful of the bowl gasket. Push
the carb back into the rubber flange until you hear and feel it kind of seat in
place. You will feel it snap in place and the carb will look like it is in far
enough that it can't go any further. Tighten the rubber flange retention ring
screw and do the same procedure to the other side. Once both are done put the
cowl on and test run at full throttle for about 5 minutes.
If you have the stock Rotax airbox then you will need to loosen the airbox side
rubber flange and slide it out of the way to push the carb back out of the rubber
flange. So both sides of the carb gets the rubber flange loosened.
You should now be ready to take off and head for home.
It works.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JdS7OtbcxwY
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home [url=tel:520-574-1080]520-574-1080[/url] TRY HOME FIRST
Cell [url=tel:520-349-7056]520-349-7056[/url]
[b]
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Roger Lee
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/03/13 |
|
|
Hi Hugh,
The problem has been that not everyone has a gascolator or a fuel filter far enough downstream. the main hose offenders isn't from hose before the fuel pump because it has a filter screen inside, but from hose past the pump. The fuel hose from the pump pressure side out is a problem at times. Some 912's have the stainless steel lines mounted from the fuel distribution block mounted on the carb balance tube, some don't. Some have the red Teflon fuel line from this point and some have just rubber fuel line right out of the pump to the carbs.
Read this and you'll get a better handle on what some of the issues have been. My original post here was to just give you another tool in your mental toolbox for the "just in case" scenario.
http://www.rotax-owner.com/rotax-blog/item/21-rotax-5-year-rubber-replacement-the-installation-considerations
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_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056 |
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rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 12:22 pm Post subject: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/03/13 |
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|
Barry,
Debris blocking some portion of the fuel flow through the carb is not a design fault. That can happen to any carb engine. About 4 months ago I had a friend go off the end of the runway at his home airport because a tiny piece of debris blocked the main jet in the carb on his Lycoming engine just as he lifted off.
The Rotax 9xx series of engines are fine power plants. They are different than your typical Lycoming or Continental but they are all excellent power plants.
There's no difference between the certified Rotax and the uncertified Rotax other than paperwork and application.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)
On May 4, 2013, at 10:39 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Stan:
Sorry for your "experience" and glad you walked away from it.
But why does Rotax have so many stupid design faults?
I know it is not your fault, but is there a difference between Rotax experimental and Rotax certified?
Barry
[quote][b]
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Roger Lee
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/03/13 |
|
|
Hi Barry,
These things aren't Rotax faults they are human caused errors. They can happen to any engine and any engine can have a mechanical failure. If that wasn't so no engine or machine would need a warranty or ever need a spare part. We make them and we work on them.
We are the problem.
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_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056 |
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