Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

N6ZY

Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 31

Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:22 pm Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

I am getting close to having to select an electric constant speed feathering prop for my 914-powered Europa XS Trigear.  The choice seems to be between the Woodcomp and the Airmaster.  Does anyone have flight experience of both, to provide a comparison?



My initial impression is that the Airmaster has a good reputation, but that the available blades do not have sufficient twist near the root to offer optimum performance.  Woodcomp blades have the twist, but I have read comments that their after sales service is lacking, and there has been at least on in-flight failure.



Are my impressions correct, and how does the performance, including top speed, compare?  I should add that i am based in the US, and that I am looking at a two blade prop.  I would appreciate any advice based on real experience.  Thanks



Jerry

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:34 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

On 06/10/2013 04:22 AM, N6ZY wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Are my impressions correct, and how does the performance, including

 top speed, compare?  I should add that i am based in the US, and that

 I am looking at a two blade prop.  I would appreciate any advice

 based on real experience.


	


I have a 914 with a two blade Woodcomp prop with extra twist. I'm very

happy with the prop. The pitch range is perfect for all power settings,

speeds and altitudes.

My tri gear Europa is a real performer. With the recent trip to the

north cape, flying in formation with two other 914 Europa's, I had the

lowest manifold pressure and lowest fuel consumption, despite having the

highest weight on board (with 2 POB where the others were flying solo).

In economy cruise I can manage 13 liters per hour of fuel with a speed

of 110 knots. Top speed with WOT is close to Vne.

I hasten to say that I have made many aerodynamic changes, like an

optimized cooling system, wing root fairings, mylar strips on all

control surface gaps, etc. so it is difficult to say how much is

contributed by just the prop. I had this configuration from the first

flight so I can't judge the invidual effects.

BTW I choosed a two blade prop because it has one leading edge less,

lower skin drag and lower weight, and at least theoretically it should

give better cruise performance than a three blade prop. But of course

the two blade prop feels a bit more "rough" due to the inherent

vibrations of such a prop. But if I had to buy a new prop I would

probably buy the same one.

There are not many Europa's with two blade props, so you might find my

experience interesting.

With 230 hours, I only had one broken wire inside the spinner,

resoldered it myself and changed the routing somewhat to minimize

movements due to centrifugal forces, no further problems.

I do not use the controller that came with the prop, but use the

controller from Mark Burton.



Frans

ploucandco

Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 69

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:39 am Post subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Hello Jerry,



I have had an airmaster and a woodcomp high twist on my monowheel europa. Both were 3 blades props. 



I believe that both are good props but I am happy to have my airmaster back now. 



If you are using the woodcomp, the smartavionics controller is the preferred option. 



Airmaster

+ hub quality and robustness

+ very nice metal spinner

+ controller straigthforward to use

+ no maintenance solution (except for the brushes)

+ support, fast and efficient 

+ extremely easy to assemble

- no high twist blades for cooling 

- expensive



Woodcomp

+ high twist so better cooling (didn't see relevant improvements in speed)

+ delivered with blades cover

+ look of the blades

+ low noise blades

- hub build quality 

- complexity of the assembly of the hub (major minus if you get the prop delivered in different pieces)

- composite spinner

- support, 1 man show in CZ

- overall weight (extremely noticable with 3 blades prop)

- need a 3rd party controller to have a robust solution



If you are based in the US, I would think twice to use a woodcomp. Airmaster has a local dealer (your preferred Europa US dealer  and it just works out of the box with no required maintenance.



The only major issue with the airmaster is that you will need to have cowling adjustements  to ensure proper cooling with the 914. 



Jacques.

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:48 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Hi Jerry,



I agree with most that was said by Frans and Jaques. I just wanted to add that I was the first one with the Woodcomp 3000/2W this side of the pond, and the first on a Europa.

It was shipped in one piece, so installation was easy. I had terrible support problems because I couldn't get the Woodcomp controller to work properly. I returned it for a refund and switched to the Smartavionics controller. I had a couple of issues with that as well, but a software upgrade fixed that.

My reason for choosing this prop, because I wanted a feathering 2-blade for the motorglider, and the price was right. Another choice could have been a Hoffmann, at 4 times the price and twice the weight.

I had 3 (three) motor failures: one in flight, one probably on the ground, and a third, which I now carried as a spare, was totally corroded. At least the pitch control motors used on my prop are not designed for aviation use. I have no idea what motors they use for the Airmaster.

Because of my experience I don't really trust electric pitch control on any make and tend to make my takeoff in manual. The biggest load on the motor is at high rpm and a failure in the takeoff /climb phase is not desirable. I assume that you have a trigear, because the longer 2-blade jobs are not suitable for a mono. Even the trigear needs to have the nosegear raised a couple of inches.

Support from the Canadian and US agents is completely useless, and support from the factory ranges from excellent to very slow, depending on whether the only English speaker is present or on a sales trip.

But in general, there is no need for immediate support, unless you have some kind of failure away from home (as happened to me). This prop seemed to vibrate quite a bit at first, but after balancing the carbs again, it was just as smooth as the Airmaster I was using. In fact I prefer the feel and sound of the Woodcomp. 

Since I smashed the blades in a forced landing on a farm field I have reverted back to the ground adjustable Warp Drive, which is also an excellent prop. When I have the money I will get the Woodcomp refurbished by the factory.

Karl





 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

 From: jffisher(at)gmail.com

 Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 19:22:35 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "N6ZY" <jffisher(at)gmail.com>

 

 I am getting close to having to select an electric constant speed feathering prop for my 914-powered Europa XS Trigear.  The choice seems to be between the Woodcomp and the Airmaster.  Does anyone have flight experience of both, to provide a comparison?

 

 My initial impression is that the Airmaster has a good reputation, but that the available blades do not have sufficient twist near the root to offer optimum performance.  Woodcomp blades have the twist, but I have read comments that their after sales service is lacking, and there has been at least on in-flight failure.

 

 Are my impressions correct, and how does the performance, including top speed, compare?  I should add that i am based in the US, and that I am looking at a two blade prop.  I would appreciate any advice based on real experience.  Thanks

 

 Jerry

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402363#402363

 

 

 

 

 

 

&gt=========
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	




 		 	   		  

  [quote][b]

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:32 am Post subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Hi,



needless to say that I cannot compete to Frans' numbers. My bird does 110 KIAS at 8.500 ft (XS Trigear, Rotax 914 with no modifications except the factory speed mods) at a fuelburn of 17,5 litres. 



I have the Airmaster 3-blade and am satisfied with it. I had no issues in about two years flying and my impression is, that it's a robust and trouble free installation. When asking Martin (at) Airmaster I always (two times) got a rapid reply.



I have to admit, that I always tend to the conventional since I'm no friend of experiments in the aviation sector in spite of maybe losing a few knots . 



Roland

PH-ZTI

XS Trigear 914

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Just for the sake of another data point I will add my two cents.

I have been flying with my Airmaster constant speed prop for close to nine years.

Early in its life the prop spinner cracked, twice, and I TIG repaired it twice, 

then Martin revised the spinner and there have been no further issues. I keep

up with the suggested maintenance.  I see no advantave to the Woodcomp

alternative. The "extra" twist for enhancement of cowl port airflow is not a 

factor in a 912s application.



As for performance quotations, I think they are pretty meaningless without

data on weight, density altitude, manifold pressure, RPM, etc.



In my aircraft, at a DA of 3000', GW of 1200#, and 70% power I see a reliable

118kts TAS with about 4.1 gph. In its current configuration, I don't have enough

data points to state a performance at 8000' which is possibly where best TAS

might be for the 912s.



Your mile will vary!

Cheers,



Ira

_________________
Ira N224XS

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:06 pm Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Jerry,

 Full disclosure here, as I am an Airmaster Dealer here in the States:

  

 Woodcomp, Whirlwind and the AP420 are slightly faster at altitudes above  8500 MSL than the three blade AP332.

  

 The Airmaster AP332 with Warp Drive Blades is what most Europa's  have.  We are an older kit and we grew with Airmaster, so for the most  part, those of us with six or more years have had the props as they fit like a  glove and our cowl shape is made for their spinner.  Other than brushes we  re-grease annually on inspections.  The Warp Drive is flat bottomed and has  about 16 degrees of pitch and a long club section at the base.  This cuts  back efficiency a bit.  A very tough prop, but very easy to fix dings,  basically bulletproof.  It is very quiet, even at takeoff setting of 5750  RPM.  Stay away from the Warp Drive tapered blade period.  All  my performance problems have been a result of the tapered blade.  Most of  the other manufacturers boast they are faster than the Airmaster but they are  comparing their blade to the narrow chord blade which was heavily sold from the  early 90s to 2002.  The inertia was lower for the narrow chord and frankly  it was sold to prevent overstressing the Rotax starter sprag  clutch.  The wide chord is at the max inertia for the Rotax at 67  inches, but I don't care as we need a 64 inch.  If it has been working for  over ten years, I'll go with performance every time.  I won't sell another  narrow chord blade.

  

 Whirlwind is hydraulic and I just love hydraulic props, but they leak and  for any service they have to go back to the manufacturer.  Keep a spare  fixed prop.  The blades have great twist and make a wooshing sound at full  power, they are smooth and reliable.  You must use an aftermarket governor  (speed controller) and installation also includes a wonky setup to lock in the  cable and very expensive Rotax oil line set for the governor hookup.   They are very light and if struck the blades are totaled.  Great folks and  good support.  They will paint to suit your colors.  It is the only  other prop I recommend.

  

 Woodcomp two blade is good but reliability and quick service are hit and  miss.  Like the Whirlwind it has the larger twist and is fairly fast at  altitude.  We don't see much difference in climb.  Most folks see a  small difference in climb in favor of the Woodcomp over the AP332 and that  is mostly MP and RPM fine pitch limit.  Aircraft weights, and  drag vary so I don't hold much stock unless tested on the same aircraft and  conditions.  Theoretically there should be no difference in climb.

  

 The Woodcomp three blade is nice looking, but has the same reliability  problem.  And you have to buy an after market controller for  reliability.  Duh, they have been doing this long enough to get their stuff  together.  In their defense, I believe part of the reliability is  installation and testing at the factory.  A shame really, it is a nice  looking blade.

  

 Airmaster AP 4 series can be a two or three blade.

 It has many choices of blades.  I personally like the Whirwind blades  on the AP420 series for performance, Sensenich for the tapered tip and lower  noise on the 430.  The AP430 is quieter and pulls very strong.  A real  good climber and about 10 knots faster than the Warp Drive.   Kiev, and Bolly blades are also available, but they are very light blades and do  not hold up as well as the WD in grass/sandy environments.  Sensenich,  and Whirlwind have a softer leading edge, so for rough or dirty fields or  high grass expect to do maintenance...

  

 MT makes a very good prop also.  They are reliable, but pricey and the  language barrier is frustrating.  They are also a fast prop, but you will  have to sell a child to own one.

  

 One other prop is the Hoffman, they are wood/glass and have an electric  drive, but the only ones I am familiar with are the mechanical push pull  lever ones used on the Ximango MG.  I have sold Airmasters to those who  have inquired with that plane...  They are out of Germany also.

  

 As I said on my website.  I have never been stuck out with the  Airmaster.  With a 9 volt battery, I can manually set a pitch to get home  even with panel electrical failure.

 You can mow the grass with the Warp Drive blade (I have done it, grass  stains everywhere!)  I have flown my Europa with both the two blade AP420  and the AP332.  The 420 performs a bit better at altitude, is easier to get  the cowl off, lighter by about 4-5 pounds, but is a bit noisier outside and  in.  Not a lot of noise on the 64 inch.  Folks at the airport know  when I have the two blade on.  On the longer AP420 props I've tested the  420 is awesome at 70 inches, ground clearance is unacceptable for the  Europa but great on the Rans S-6 and the float planes.  We actually pulled  a float equipped S-6 past redline with a 912S at 5500 RPM and 26 inches of  MP.

  

 I like things reliable (so remind me why I have a 914?) and my bang  for the buck was the Airmaster.  In 6 years as the dealer, I just don't get  problems or call backs.  I have only had to send them to the  factory for prop strikes (at my insistence as I can't magneflux for hub  cracks).  Normally, guys just plug and play them and I get a call after six  plus years asking how to fix rock dings.  ($75-170 per blade for a rebuild  and repaint depending on damage).  The biggest complaint, Warp Drive blades  are all black and Sensenich is White, with red tips, and black on the back  only.  

  

 Remember, each plane is different.  Apples and oranges is the normal  comparison we owners and dealers get.  I get to see many prop requests  and I have had two Woodcomp owners change to the Airmaster out of frustration  with reliability.  I have never had an Airmaster returned.  I have  changed out the narrow chord blades though on the AP332 for wide chord.

  

 I like plug and play, and that is what it is on the Europa XS or Classic  with either the AP332 or 420/430 series.

  

 Bud Yerly

 US Airmaster Dealer

  

  

 [quote]   ---

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:11 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

<<<<The "extra" twist for enhancement of cowl port airflow is not a 

factor in a 912s application.>>>>>



Hi Ira,

I have 630 hours on my Airmaster AP332/WarpDrive and I am very happy with the reliability and performance of this prop. But the cooling problem on the ground with the WarpDrive blades is a big inconvenience, with any engine. All Europas I know, fitted with the WarpDrive prop, fixed or variable pitch, even with the 80 HP 912 have this ground cooling problem as soon as they have to wait more than a few minutes at the holding point in hot weather. With the existing Europa XS cowl, I believe the only  solution would be to have wider blades at the root and higher twist, as offered by Woodcomp. 

Regards

Remi Guerner

F-PGKL, XS Monowheel, 912ULS, 1014 hours.

max8992

Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:27 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Bud,

 

I have an AP332 on my XS and a MT Propeller on my MCR4S both on a 912S. Any comparison from yours? BTW has anyone fitted an MTV-7A on an XS

As a user/maintainer above my subjective coments:

MTV-7A: smoother to use ( no predefined pitch) – AP332 : easier to use (predefined pitch, reproducible easily on every flight)

MTV-7A: nice design, nice efficiency in cruise: 120Kt (at)4800RPM 3000FT and 17 l/h – AP332: square design, very effective at take-off (seems more than MTV-7A) 118 Kt (at)5000RPM 3000FT and 19 l/h

MTV-7A: TCO more expensive (overall (at)1800 hours or 6 years) –

 

Max  Cointe

mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)

F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear

Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 450 hours

 

F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S 

Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1550 heures



 

De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Bud Yerly

Envoyé : mardi 11 juin 2013 00:06

À : europa-list(at)matronics.com

Objet : Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

 

Jerry,



Full disclosure here, as I am an Airmaster Dealer here in the States:



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
Max8992
Europa XS #560 F-PMLH

max8992

Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:33 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Fully agree, temp on ground is an issue for me (even if our country Auxerre

is not as hot as Remi's one). No such problem with the large blades of the

MTV-7A (must admit that the cowl looks also better designed on the MCR). 



Max  Cointe

mcointe(at)free.fr

F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear

Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 450 hours



F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S 

Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1550 heures



-----Message d'origine-----

De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Guerner Remi

Envoyé : mardi 11 juin 2013 10:11

À : Europa-List Digest Server

Objet : Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop






<<<<The "extra" twist for enhancement of cowl port airflow is not a factor

in a 912s application.>>>>>

_________________
Max8992
Europa XS #560 F-PMLH

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:13 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

It would be worth researching exhaust extraction. I have it on my Lycoming (pusher Long EZ) and it works

Warm day, full throttle on the ground for 10 minutes, throttle back and it cools down from near red line..

Graham

        From: Guerner Remi <air.guerner(at)orange.fr>

 To: Europa-List Digest Server <europa-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Tuesday, 11 June 2013, 9:11

 Subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

--> Europa-List message posted by: Guerner Remi <air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)>

<<<<The "extra" twist for enhancement of cowl port airflow is not a 

factor in a 912s application.>>>>>

Hi Ira,

I have 630 hours on my Airmaster AP332/WarpDrive and I am very happy with the reliability and performance of this prop. But the cooling problem on the ground with the WarpDrive blades is a big  inconvenience, with any engine. All Europas I know, fitted with the WarpDrive prop, fixed or variable pitch, even with the 80 HP 912 have this ground cooling problem as soon as they have to wait more than a few minutes at the holding point in hot weather. With the existing Europa XS cowl, I believe the only  solution would be to have wider blades at the root and higher twist, as offered by Woodcomp. 

Regards

Remi Guerner

F-PGKL, XSics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" ="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics                    &nbsptronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri================

 [quote][b]

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:40 am Post subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Cooling on the ground is indeed an issue for me, too. At the AERO in Friedrichshafen (OAT around 25Â°C) the only way to prevent the engine from overheating after waiting 15 minutes at the parking position at idle and a long taxi was to place myself a few meters behind a Cirrus at the holding position which performed a run up. That kept the CHT's well below redline, but there isn't always a Cirrus in front of me

N6ZY

Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 31

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Thanks to everyone who answered my original post, there was a lot of information there.  My end conclusion was much as when I posted, that the Woodcomp prop blades are really good, but the combination of poor quality control and lack of US support makes the Airmaster a better bet for me.  I dismissed the MT prop option as being expensive, and I know from previous experience that MT are not always responsive and they are not troubled by excessive humility!



So I phoned Martin at Airmaster yesterday and we discussed the options for 20 minutes.  He gets his blades from various suppliers, and basically agrees that it would be much better if he had blades with more twist in them.  He is looking into a number of options.  This includes using Whirlwind blades; although they are a competitor, they are now willing to supply him.  Another option is blades from either Helix or Neuform in Germany.  Finally he can use any of the Sensenich blades.  He suggested that I phone the various blade manufacturers to see what they have for my application.



The other question we discussed was the prop diameter.  I will fly 98% of the time off hard runways, and cannot see that a 68" diameter prop would be impractical even allowing for flat nosewheel tires (tyres?  I am a Brit living in the US) and my bad landings.  That would open up the number of blade options.  I know that Frans has increased his clearance using some form of nose gear spacer, but I would rather keep it simple if I can.  In addition using a 3 blade prop may make the use of smaller diameter blades equivalent to larger 2 blades.



My end result is that I will delay the blade selection as long as possible, but will go with the Airmaster prop, probably with 3 blades, and possibly with Whirlwind blades.  They appear from their website to be well shaped with adequate blade twist.



Any reactions to the use of a larger diameter prop would be appreciated.  Thanks again for the interest and inputs.



Jerry

nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:42 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Hi Jerry,

         

         You’ve stimulated an interesting thread and received some high         quality         feedback.     

My only         contribution is to         advise you to look carefully at the Maximum moment of inertia of         the combined         prop and VP unit if you are seriously considering fitting a         larger diameter         Prop.      

Rotax advise a         maximum of         6000 Kg cm2 (14,328 lb ft2 in old money).     

You might wish         to discuss         this with Martin before making a final decision.     

      

Atb     

      Nigel                              Normal   0      <![endif]-->            



                                   Normal   0      <![endif]-->            On 11/06/2013 15:58, N6ZY wrote:

     

     [quote]        	  Quote: 	
		  Snip .......

The other question we discussed was the prop diameter.  I will fly 98% of the time off hard runways, and cannot see that a 68" diameter prop would be impractical even allowing for flat nosewheel tires (tyres?  ..................



Jerry





	
     [b]

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:33 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Good advice Nigel

Graham





        From: "nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk" <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Tuesday, 11 June 2013, 16:42

 Subject: Re: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

  

 

                              Hi Jerry,

         

         Youâ€™ve stimulated an interesting thread and received some high         quality         feedback.

      My only         contribution is to         advise you to look carefully at the Maximum moment of inertia of         the combined         prop and VP unit if you are seriously considering fitting a         larger diameter         Prop. 

      Rotax advise a         maximum of         6000 Kg cm2 (14,328 lb ft2 in old money).

      You might wish         to discuss         this with Martin before making a final decision.

       

      Atb

       

      Nigel                                      

     

                                      On 11/06/2013 15:58, N6ZY wrote:

     

     [quote]        	  Quote: 	
		  Snip .......



The other question we discussed was the prop diameter.  I will fly 98% of the time off hard runways, and cannot see that a 68" diameter prop would be impractical even allowing for flat nosewheel tires (tyres?  ..................


Jerry





	
     http://www.matro====================


[b]

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:59 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

FWIW the new  Whirlwind blades are hollow CF and are amazingly light

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:32 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON <

grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> wrote:



[quote] Good advice Nigel

 Graham

   ------------------------------

  *From:* "nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk" <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk>

 *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com

 *Sent:* Tuesday, 11 June 2013, 16:42

 *Subject:* Re: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop



  Hi Jerry,



 You’ve stimulated an interesting thread and received some high quality

 feedback.

 My only contribution is to advise you to look carefully at the Maximum

 moment of inertia of the combined prop and VP unit if you are seriously

 considering fitting a larger diameter Prop.

 Rotax advise a maximum of 6000 Kg cm2 (14,328 lb ft2 in old money).

 You might wish to discuss this with Martin before making a final decision

N6ZY

Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 31

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:06 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Thanks.  However the Whirlwind story is confusing.  Effectively there are now two Whirlwind companies, the original for fixed pitch props and a spin-off for constant speed.  I think that Martin at Airmaster was referring to the blades from the hydraulic constant speed outfit.  The fixed pitch company also has new carbon fiber blades, but I think that they are 70", which is a bit much.  I will follow up.  And yes Nigel, thanks, you are right, I do need to check the inertia data.



This has turned out to be a much more complex question than I originally understood, but it does make quite a difference in aircraft performance and reliability.

Jerry

On Jun 11, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Paul McAllister wrote:

[quote]FWIW the new  Whirlwind blades are hollow CF and are amazingly light

On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:32 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Good advice Nigel

Graham





         From: "nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)" <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)>

  To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Sent: Tuesday, 11 June 2013, 16:42

  Subject: Re: Re: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

  

 

                              Hi Jerry,

         

         You’ve stimulated an interesting thread and received some high         quality         feedback.

      My only         contribution is to         advise you to look carefully at the Maximum moment of inertia of         the combined         prop and VP unit if you are seriously considering fitting a         larger diameter         Prop. 

      Rotax advise a         maximum of         6000 Kg cm2 (14,328 lb ft2 in old money).

      You might wish         to discuss         this with Martin before making a final decision.

       

      Atb

       

      Nigel





href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:40 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

Jerry



Thanks for the question.  I for one would appreciate an update - as and when

possible.  I am about (well within the next 12 months haha) to go through

the same decision.



Yours



Will



--

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:46 pm Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

On 06/11/2013 11:12 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   It would be worth researching exhaust extraction. I have it on my

 Lycoming (pusher Long EZ) and it works

 Warm day, full throttle on the ground for 10 minutes, throttle back and

 it cools down from near red line..


	


I implemented exhaust extraction also in my Europa. No venturi, just the

exhaust tube shorter than the tunnel it is fed through. I could however

never establish that it is really working as designed. Fact is that I'm

unable to overheat the engine on the ground, but that can also be the

result of the completely different low drag cooling arrangement. Or the

Woodcomp propeller of course.



Frans

nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:25 am Post subject: Woodcomp or Airmaster Prop

It has been         pointed out to         me by a good but irritatingly pedantic friend, with time to         spare and use of a         computer (he’ll be at work then) that the Imperial number I         quoted was missing a         digit.     

      

For those of         you about to         rush off this morning and fork out an obscene amount of money         for a new prop,         without having first checked the numbers, please be advised that         the correct         Moment Of Inertia should have read 142,328 lb ft2     

      

With humility     

      Nigel                                      Normal   0      <![endif]-->       

     

     On 11/06/2013 17:41, Sir Peregrine       Hardly-Worthit wrote:

     

     [quote]                       <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->                

Not             being picky, but that might be 142,328 lb ft2 J         

          

http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/EN/units-converter/moment-of-inertia/1-9/         

          

Sir             Peregrine Hardly-Worthit         

Vice-Chairman,             Pedantic Society         

                                  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)                 [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On                   Behalf Of nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)

                 Sent: 11 June 2013 16:42

                 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

                 Subject: Re: Re: Woodcomp or                 Airmaster Prop           

         

         

          

Hi             Jerry,

             

             You’ve stimulated an interesting thread and received some             high quality feedback.         

My             only contribution is to advise you to look carefully at the             Maximum moment of inertia of the combined prop and VP unit             if you are seriously considering fitting a larger diameter             Prop.          

Rotax             advise a maximum of 6000 Kg cm2 (14,328 lb ft2 in old             money).         

You             might wish to discuss this with Martin before making a final             decision.         

Atb         

Nigel                    

                     

On 11/06/2013 15:58, N6ZY wrote:         

          	  Quote: 	
		              	  Quote: 	
		  Snip .......  The other question we discussed was the prop diameter.  I will fly 98% of the time off hard runways, and cannot see that a 68" diameter prop would be impractical even allowing for flat nosewheel tires (tyres?  .................. Jerry    	
         	
         

           	  Quote: 	
		   	
0          	  Quote: 	
		   	
1          	  Quote: 	
		   	
2       

     [b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum