Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

jschroeder(at)perigee.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons

There has been a series of discussions of this on the BMA Discussion  

Board. Check there. YOU have to have a certified CDI to display the  

certified GPS information if you want to fly IFR enroute and IFR GPS  

approaches. EAA also has a paper on the subject.

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:18:50 -0600, Brinker <brinker(at)cox-internet.com>  

wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		              Just curious, why a separate CDI for IFR approahes if the BMA

 show's CDI on screen ?


	


--

aadamson(at)highrf.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons

John, I might be wrong and just went to look on the BMA site.  I didn't find

anything specifically, nor did I find it on or searching around the EAA

site.



Can you post a link?  You sure you aren't confusing the issue of using the

BMA with a CNX-480 and the fact that you can't get all the nav signals that

are needed, some most are using an external head?



The link to specifics would help if you could please?  I'm curious as well

as I'm going down the road to a chelton panel for a Legacy and want to make

sure I don't mess up.  Guys at D2AV say I don't need and external CDI...



Alan 



--

flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:20 pm Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons

I'm pretty sure you can use a GNS430 without a CDI for GPS Enroute and

Approach?  . . . It has a "CDI" of sorts built in.  I plan to use the EHSI

function of the BMA Lite for ILS and or VOR CDI function and I believe that

is OK too?  The GPS in the "Lite" should make a nice backup too.

Regards,

Bob

On 1/13/06, John Schroeder <jschroeder(at)perigee.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 jschroeder(at)perigee.net>

 There has been a series of discussions of this on the BMA Discussion

 Board. Check there. YOU have to have a certified CDI to display the

 certified GPS information if you want to fly IFR enroute and IFR GPS

 approaches. EAA also has a paper on the subject.

 On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:18:50 -0600, Brinker <brinker(at)cox-internet.com>

 wrote:

 >            Just curious, why a separate CDI for IFR approahes if the BMA

 > show's CDI on screen ?

 --

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:12 am Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons

Good Morning Bob,  



Do you intend to use the 430 IFR or VFR?

 

Do you want to execute full ILS approaches?

 

For VFR, there is no question that a CDI is not needed.

 

For IFR, things get a bit stickier.  Beyond that, it makes a  difference if 

the aircraft is experimental or normal category.

 

Do you intend to use an autopilot with the GPS?

 

There is no question in my mind as to whether or not the set can be used  

successfully without a CDI for any and all GPS functions it is capable of  

performing. Unfortunately, the FAA may not agree with that statement!

 

Let us know precisely how you want to use it and we may be able to offer  

some help.

 

Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503



 

In a message dated 1/14/2006 2:49:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,  

flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com writes:



I'm  pretty sure you can use a GNS430 without a CDI for GPS Enroute  and

Approach?  . . . It has a "CDI" of sorts built in.  I plan to  use the EHSI

function of the BMA Lite for ILS and or VOR CDI function and I  believe that

is OK too?  The GPS in the "Lite" should make a nice  backup too.



Regards,

Bob

flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons

Hi Bob,



It is a RV8 and I plan to fly some "light" IFR . . . I don't know what you

mean by "full ILS approaches" but my intent is to fly GPS/VOR enroute

and GPS, VOR and ILS approaches with a GNS430 . . . the only "non TSO'd"

piece of the puzzle is the BMA/Lite(G3).  I also have a DigiTrak auto

pilot.



Anything I've read to date leads me to feel this meets the language and

intent of the FARs, etc.?



Thanks,

Bob

On 1/14/06, BobsV35B(at)aol.com <BobsV35B(at)aol.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 



 Good Morning Bob,



 Do you intend to use the 430 IFR or VFR?



 Do you want to execute full ILS approaches?



 For VFR, there is no question that a CDI is not needed.



 For IFR, things get a bit stickier.  Beyond that, it makes a  difference

 if

 the aircraft is experimental or normal category.



 Do you intend to use an autopilot with the GPS?



 There is no question in my mind as to whether or not the set can be used

 successfully without a CDI for any and all GPS functions it is capable of

 performing. Unfortunately, the FAA may not agree with that statement!



 Let us know precisely how you want to use it and we may be able to offer

 some help.



 Happy  Skies,



 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Ancient Aviator

 Stearman  N3977A

 Brookeridge Air Park LL22

 Downers Grove, IL 60516

 630  985-8503

 In a message dated 1/14/2006 2:49:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,

 flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com writes:



 I'm  pretty sure you can use a GNS430 without a CDI for GPS Enroute  and

 Approach?  . . . It has a "CDI" of sorts built in.  I plan to  use the

 EHSI

 function of the BMA Lite for ILS and or VOR CDI function and I  believe

 that

 is OK too?  The GPS in the "Lite" should make a nice  backup too.



 Regards,

 Bob

Dan.Beadle(at)hq.inclines
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons

The 430 does not have glide slope indicator.  Therefore the on-board CDI

is not enough to fly the ILS, jus the localizer.



--

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:45 am Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons

Good Morning Bob,  



The reference to "full" ILS was meant to include a glide slope.  There  is no 

way that I am aware of to see the glide slope on the 430 control unit  face.  

Consequently a CDI is needed. While I am not very familiar with how  the 430 

works, I also believe you will need a resolver to input VOR radials for  the 

VHF navigation portion of the 430.

 

Since you do want to fly IFR, I think you will need an approved resolver  

input device.

Is there a resolver function available in the BMA/Lite(G3)? Can it present  

the glide path indication?

 

 

Provided the BMA/Lite(G3) provides those capabilities, I think it  could work!

 



If all you want from the 430 is IFR GPS functions, a good case can be made  

for doing it all with the 430 control unit.  Since you are the person that  has 

to approve the installation and explain your reasoning at a hearing, it  wou

ld seem to me that you could support the GPS functions as being in  substantial 

compliance with the applicable GPS TSO even without  a separate  CDI and 

resolver.

 

Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503



 

In a message dated 1/14/2006 8:24:39 A.M. Central Standard Time,  

flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com writes:



Hi  Bob,



It is a RV8 and I plan to fly some "light" IFR . . . I don't know  what you

mean by "full ILS approaches" but my intent is to fly GPS/VOR  enroute

and GPS, VOR and ILS approaches with a GNS430 . . . the only "non  TSO'd"

piece of the puzzle is the BMA/Lite(G3).  I also have a  DigiTrak auto

pilot.



Anything I've read to date leads me to feel  this meets the language and

intent of the FARs,  etc.?



Thanks,

Bob

flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:20 am Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons

I understand that . . . the 430 will feed the BMA/Lite for that purpose.



Thanks,

Bob

On 1/14/06, Dan Beadle <Dan.Beadle(at)hq.inclinesoftworks.com> wrote:

[quote]

 

 Dan.Beadle(at)hq.InclineSoftworks.com>



 The 430 does not have glide slope indicator.  Therefore the on-board CDI

 is not enough to fly the ILS, jus the localizer.



 --

flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:32 am Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons

Bob,



Yes the BMA/Lite "has" the resolver capability and does display the ILS

"needles" in both the HSI and ADI mode . . . for VOR you would have to be in

HSI mode.  I'm not flying yet but it is an analog interface with the

BMA/Lite sending OBS information back to the 430 . . . I assume the

resolving function is done in the 430? and the BMA/Lite displays the to/from

and CDI indication.



I have an AH, TSO'd Altimeter, and AS and VSI for "back-up"



I'm not sure this is all ready for prime time but by the time I'm flying and

have my 40 hours flown off I plan to prove the functionality and reliability

of what I just said!



Thanks for your input!

Bob

On 1/14/06, BobsV35B(at)aol.com <BobsV35B(at)aol.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 



 Good Morning Bob,



 The reference to "full" ILS was meant to include a glide slope.  There  is

 no

 way that I am aware of to see the glide slope on the 430 control

 unit  face.

 Consequently a CDI is needed. While I am not very familiar with how  the

 430

 works, I also believe you will need a resolver to input VOR radials

 for  the

 VHF navigation portion of the 430.



 Since you do want to fly IFR, I think you will need an approved resolver

 input device.

 Is there a resolver function available in the BMA/Lite(G3)? Can it present

 the glide path indication?

 Provided the BMA/Lite(G3) provides those capabilities, I think it  could

 work!

 If all you want from the 430 is IFR GPS functions, a good case can be made

 for doing it all with the 430 control unit.  Since you are the person

 that  has

 to approve the installation and explain your reasoning at a hearing,

 it  wou

 ld seem to me that you could support the GPS functions as being

 in  substantial

 compliance with the applicable GPS TSO even without  a separate  CDI and

 resolver.



 Happy  Skies,



 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Ancient Aviator

 Stearman  N3977A

 Brookeridge Air Park LL22

 Downers Grove, IL 60516

 630  985-8503

 In a message dated 1/14/2006 8:24:39 A.M. Central Standard Time,

 flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com writes:



 Hi  Bob,



 It is a RV8 and I plan to fly some "light" IFR . . . I don't know  what

 you

 mean by "full ILS approaches" but my intent is to fly GPS/VOR  enroute

 and GPS, VOR and ILS approaches with a GNS430 . . . the only "non  TSO'd"

 piece of the puzzle is the BMA/Lite(G3).  I also have a  DigiTrak auto

 pilot.



 Anything I've read to date leads me to feel  this meets the language and

 intent of the FARs,  etc.?



 Thanks,

 Bob

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:44 am Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons

Good Morning Bob,  



Sounds good to me except I would strongly suggest the installation of a  

classic Turn and Bank Needle.  There is no instrument that is more reliable  and 

it weighs very little.  When all else fails, the T&B can easily get  you safely 

to Mother Earth.  Not only that but it is completely non  tumbling and can be 

used as guidance to recover from a spin.

 

I am all for using modern solid state equipment. But nothing beats the  T&B 

for a back-up!

 

Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503



 

In a message dated 1/14/2006 10:34:25 A.M. Central Standard Time,  

flyboy.bob(at)gmail.com writes:



Bob,



Yes the BMA/Lite "has" the resolver capability and does  display the ILS

"needles" in both the HSI and ADI mode . . . for VOR you  would have to be in

HSI mode.  I'm not flying yet but it is an analog  interface with the

BMA/Lite sending OBS information back to the 430 . . . I  assume the

resolving function is done in the 430? and the BMA/Lite displays  the to/from

and CDI indication.



I have an AH, TSO'd Altimeter, and  AS and VSI for "back-up"



I'm not sure this is all ready for prime time  but by the time I'm flying and

have my 40 hours flown off I plan to prove  the functionality and reliability

of what I just  said!

sportav8r(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons

Exactly what I like about the Trio EZ-Pilot: built-in turn needle and mechanical inclinometer ball, plus it could fly the plane better than I could if I got a kidney stone or a case of the greens.  It suffers no more from electrical system dependency than the ol' Turn and Bank does, so I'm happy with the substitution.

 

-Bill 

 

--

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons

Good Afternoon Bill.  



I hope you are correct, but I have heard rumors that the current crop of  

solid state accelerometer based rate sensors do not do well during violent  

maneuvering. Supposedly, that is one of the reasons there have been so  few 

approved for certified use.  It is my feeling that I would sooner  have a tried and 

true instrument like the T&B for my last ditch  backup.

 

I would hope that some day I will have the confidence to use newer designs,  

but meanwhile, I will keep my gyroscopic turn needle.  In my current spam  

can, I have one electric T&B and one vacuum powered T&B.

 

However, I guess that is why we call the OBAM aircraft experimental. We are  

all free to experiment as we see fit!

 

Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503



 

In a message dated 1/14/2006 10:57:18 A.M. Central Standard Time,  

sportav8r(at)aol.com writes:



Exactly  what I like about the Trio EZ-Pilot: built-in turn needle and 

mechanical  inclinometer ball, plus it could fly the plane better than I could if I 

got a  kidney stone or a case of the greens.  It suffers no more from 

electrical  system dependency than the ol' Turn and Bank does, so I'm happy with the  

substitution.



-Bill

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:39 pm Post subject: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons

BobsV35B(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I hope you are correct, but I have heard rumors that the current crop of  

 solid state accelerometer based rate sensors do not do well during violent  

 maneuvering. Supposedly, that is one of the reasons there have been so  few 

 approved for certified use.  It is my feeling that I would sooner  have a tried and 

 true instrument like the T&B for my last ditch  backup.


	


All of the solid state rate gyros and accelerometers have maximum rates.

For the rate gyros they are in degrees per second and for the

accelerometers they are in Gs. If the AHRS has 160 degree/sec rate gyros

then it is going to lose track if you roll the airplane too fast. (It

won't really tumble but it won't indicate a roll as fast as you are

actually achieving.) You can get devices that support higher rates at

the expense of lower resolution and accuracy.



Most aircraft do not have pitch, yaw, or roll rates great enough to

reach the limits. OTOH, some OBAM aircraft do and that should be a

consideration when selecting a PFD/AHRS.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         2243 Cattle Dr.

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum