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Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52

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migjockey

Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Santa Paula Airport

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:25 pm Post subject: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52

I have been playing around, trying to get a great slow roll out of the Yak 52.  I've been entering at around 250kph.  If I use medium right ailerons, I have to really get the nose up quite high...cheating...in order to come out reasonably well!  If I use full ailerons, things get better.  I realize I can use a higher entry speed as well.  Anyone out there have some suggestions, comments, criticisms.  Be my guest, fire away and thanks.

migjockey

Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Santa Paula Airport

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52

A few more comments about my inquiry.  I am asking about a slow roll, not an aileron roll; that is, I'm trying to get that "sacred circle" small and just above the horizon.  I was hoping to get to the point where I could get a a "slow" roll executed, but it seems difficult getting a good knife edge as I go through the 90 and 270 degree positions from a 250kph entry speed.  With full deflection things go much better (no surprise) but wouldn't it be nice to get one of those graceful slow rolls.  Of course, one can always do this with...now what do they call it...oh yes, better skills!  Hey, give me a break!!!!

kendal(at)acronut.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:06 pm Post subject: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52

Haven't flown a 52 but what I can say is that the "sacred circle" isn't very small in most aircraft that aren't unlimited acro machines! Bottom of the circle is straight and level flight at that airspeed, top of the circle is straight and level inverted at that airspeed... Then you fill in the sides. That's usually quite a pitch change in nose attitude from one to the other. The trick is to smoothly transition from the low point to the inverted high point then back again. It rrally is a finess thing especially when control surfaces are limited in travel/authority.  Try just completing half the roll to inverted first, fly along inverted straight and level, then complete the second half. Really it's one of the hardest maneuvers to truely do really well since all the controll surfaces are constantly moving to keep the nose exactly where it should be. 

Good luck and have fun



Kendal



www.acronut.com



On Jul 16, 2013, at 19:32, "migjockey" <glazik(at)wgn.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 A few more comments about my inquiry.  I am asking about a slow roll, not an aileron roll; that is, I'm trying to get that "sacred circle" small and just above the horizon.  I was hoping to get to the point where I could get a a "slow" roll executed, but it seems difficult getting a good knife edge as I go through the 90 and 270 degree positions from a 250kph entry speed.  With full deflection things go much better (no surprise) but wouldn't it be nice to get one of those graceful slow rolls.  Of course, one can always do this with...now what do they call it...oh yes, better skills!  Hey, give me a break!!!!

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404784#404784

migjockey

Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Santa Paula Airport

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52

Thanks Kendal.  I've pretty much already done everything you mentioned.  So far, it appears that at around 250kph entry speed, with moderate aileron inputs, I find that I really have to hold the Yak 52's nose quite high when inverted to maintain altitude as I continue to roll to the second knife edge.  Of course, with a faster roll rate, it's not as necessary.   Obviously, in other planes I've flown, like the Pitts with its symmetrical wings and such, the need for a high nose attitude is kind of moot.  What challenges me is that I recall seeing Sergei Boriak do slow rolls in the Yak 52, and it didn't appear that he was holding its nose as high, but at that time, I didn't ask him what entry speed he uses.  And, of course, he has just a wee bit more hours in Yaks than me...yeah, just a wee bit!!!

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:46 pm Post subject: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52

Are you trying to do a slow aileron roll or do a barrel roll. What are you doing with your rudder during these rolls? To do a slow roll you are pretty much doing a barrel roll. You need opposite top rudder to your aileron input as  you enter the 90 degree and 270 degree points in the roll. Pitch up 10-15 degrees, freeze the pitch, start your roll with ailerons in direction you want to roll smoothly feed in top rudder to keep the nose up in the knife edge part of he roll as you approach inverted bunt hard to keep the nose up 1 maybe 2 negative G's then repeat top rudder on the 270 deg. Side off the roll. Approaching the erect phase coordinate the control neutralizing the ailerons and rudder as you approach the horizon finishing the roll 10 degrees nose below the horizon. Apply aft stick as needed to keep it near that finishing attitude. If you pan out don't try to save it with a hard pull especially if you got slow and were uncoordinated on your controls. Practice three mistakes high.

Google T-6 WWII Barrel Roll Training for a great instructional video on Barrel Rolls.

The only slow roll I was ever taught was the Barrel Roll. 

The acro competitors on the list can correct me now. 



Sent from my iPad



On Jul 16, 2013, at 6:25 PM, "migjockey" <glazik(at)wgn.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I have been playing around, trying to get a great slow roll out of the Yak 52.  I've been entering at around 250kph.  If I use medium right ailerons, I have to really get the nose up quite high...cheating...in order to come out reasonably well!  If I use full ailerons, things get better.  I realize I can use a higher entry speed as well.  Anyone out there have some suggestions, comments, criticisms.  Be my guest, fire away and thanks.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=404783#404783

migjockey

Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Santa Paula Airport

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52

I'm talking about a slow roll, not an aileron roll or barrel roll.  In the slow roll, as I start the first 90 degrees, I begin with just a smidgen of elevator to start the nose moving up...cheating if you will.  As I continue to the first 90 knife edge, I'm not only using top rudder but I'm pushing slightly to maintain heading an achieve (theoretically) zero lift from the wings and only lift from the fuselage (knife edge).  Then as I continue on to the 180 inverted position, It is here that I find I have to really push quite a bit of forward stick to maintain altitude.  Somewhere around 10-20 degrees past inverted, I start switching rudder position to continue top rudder to hold the nose up.  I also am reducing my forward stick, but not all of it, again to maintain direction and zero life from the wings.  The last part of the roll is where my controls slowly return to neutral...sort of!  Right now I'm experimenting with various entry speeds to see which ones allow me to achieve momentary knife edge.  I really don't think the Yak 52 can hold it very long, but that's why I'm asking if someone can comment on this observation.  Perhaps with better technique holding knife edge is achievable!

gord(at)thedampub.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:16 pm Post subject: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52

I find that last knife edge is easier to control if I roll left.  Not always

possible in competition but I don't worry about that any more.  Nose up and

watch for the inverted flick... stay high and practice inverted spins.



--

migjockey

Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Santa Paula Airport

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52

Thanks for the reply.  Whenever I practice, I try to be at 3,000 AGL or higher.  If I'm focusing on spins, especially inverted ones, I start out at 6,000 AGL.  No point giving up that valuable altitude by starting low.  It's analogous to leaving that gas behind when filling up for a long cross country.  I generally roll right in the Yak due to the rotation of the engine.  I recall seeing a video online of someone doing a series of "fast" slow rolls and it looked like he had it nailed!  That nose hardly moved and went around in relatively small circles just above the horizon.  If anyone knows where I can find that video again, I'd be very appreciative.

keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52

at the 50 minute mark of the SNJ film posted above all you'll ever need to know about the slow roll, courtesy of WWII Naval Aviation!!

wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:08 pm Post subject: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52

I  think you are right on track with the slow roll but, as Gord pointed out, 

perfection is elusive.  It can be compared to the golf swing in many 

respects!  The occasional good one where the control changes are fluid and 

perfectly co-ordinated is a joy to complete as you will eventually find.



For me it is maybe one out of ten and in the Harvard and CJ you pay for that 

by wiping the oil off the belly (no inverted system like the '52).   But 

what the hell - it's worth it.



Walt



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migjockey

Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Santa Paula Airport

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52

You got that right. When everything works right, it's a joy.

gord(at)thedampub.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:09 am Post subject: Elusive Slow Roll in Yak 52

 	  Quote: 	
		  From your post .........."Right now I'm experimenting with various entry

speeds to see which ones allow me to achieve momentary knife edge.  I really
	


don't think the Yak 52 can hold it very long, but that's why I'm asking if

someone can comment on this observation.  Perhaps with better technique

holding knife edge is achievable!"



Try knife edge flight.  Roll to the left 90 degrees and see how long you can

hold it.  Then roll to the right 90 degrees and see hold long you can hold

it.  The best side is the one you need at the 270 degree roll point to keep

the nose up completing the roll.



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