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mike91911
Joined: 03 Jul 2013
Posts: 14
Location: Riverside, RI
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 Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:56 pm Post subject: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III |
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Without considering the cost of the engine itself, what would I be looking at to go from a 503 to a 582 on my Mark III? Also what would I have to change or add? I know I have to add a radiator. I'm told I can use the same carbs and exhaust (with a different y-pipe), same ignition and possibly the same gearbox and prop. Engine mount? I'm sure I'm missing things here.
I'm trying to decide before I send out the 503 to be overhauled. I can get an overhauled 582 Blue Head for $3575 or a Grey Head for $2775 and he'd give me $1000 for trading in my 503.
Thoughts and opinions...
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:40 pm Post subject: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III |
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If your overhauler will put the new ceramic seal on the rotary valve shaft in the grey head you might as well save the money and go with it. The blue head mods were primarily aimed at the powered parachute crowd to keep the engine from flash cooling on long descents. Get the 2 stroke Installation Manual and you can compare the dimensions of the 503 mounting stud spacing and the 582. If you can find a good "C" gearbox, you'll be happier with it than using a "B". If you use the "E" you need to move the engine back 3/4" from the stock Kolb 582 mount plate to get starter clearance to the back motor mount channel on the fuselage weldment.
Contact me if you go with the 582 and I'll send you the article I wrote on adapting the Honda Sabre radiator. Tested to 116 degrees on a straight 5000 foot climb and temps never out of the green. Costs less than 1/5 what the Rotax dual radiator system costs.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 9:56 PM, mike91911 <ko1m.mike(at)gmail.com (ko1m.mike(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "mike91911" <ko1m.mike(at)gmail.com (ko1m.mike(at)gmail.com)>
Without considering the cost of the engine itself, what would I be looking at to go from a 503 to a 582 on my Mark III? Also what would I have to change or add? I know I have to add a radiator. I'm told I can use the same carbs and exhaust (with a different y-pipe), same ignition and possibly the same gearbox and prop. Engine mount? I'm sure I'm missing things here.
I'm trying to decide before I send out the 503 to be overhauled. I can get an overhauled 582 Blue Head for $3575 or a Grey Head for $2775 and he'd give me $1000 for trading in my 503.
Thoughts and opinions...
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Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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rowedenny
Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:59 am Post subject: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III |
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I would like to see that article Rick.
Do not archive
Dennis "Skid" Rowe
Mk3, 690L-70, Leechburg, PA
On Jul 21, 2013, at 12:40 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote] If your overhauler will put the new ceramic seal on the rotary valve shaft in the grey head you might as well save the money and go with it. The blue head mods were primarily aimed at the powered parachute crowd to keep the engine from flash cooling on long descents.
Get the 2 stroke Installation Manual and you can compare the dimensions of the 503 mounting stud spacing and the 582. If you can find a good "C" gearbox, you'll be happier with it than using a "B". If you use the "E" you need to move the engine back 3/4" from the stock Kolb 582 mount plate to get starter clearance to the back motor mount channel on the fuselage weldment.
Contact me if you go with the 582 and I'll send you the article I wrote on adapting the Honda Sabre radiator. Tested to 116 degrees on a straight 5000 foot climb and temps never out of the green. Costs less than 1/5 what the Rotax dual radiator system costs.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 9:56 PM, mike91911 <ko1m.mike(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Without considering the cost of the engine itself, what would I be looking at to go from a 503 to a 582 on my Mark III? Also what would I have to change or add? I know I have to add a radiator. I'm told I can use the same carbs and exhaust (with a different y-pipe), same ignition and possibly the same gearbox and prop. Engine mount? I'm sure I'm missing things here.
>
> I'm trying to decide before I send out the 503 to be overhauled. I can get an overhauled 582 Blue Head for $3575 or a Grey Head for $2775 and he'd give me $1000 for trading in my 503.
>
> Thoughts and opinions...
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405000#405000
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--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy
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pipercolt
Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 46
Location: Randolph New York
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| Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III |
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I understand that you can use the same carbs on the 582, don't forget to rejet them.
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mike91911
Joined: 03 Jul 2013
Posts: 14
Location: Riverside, RI
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| Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III |
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I actually came across the article online. If I go the 582 route I will definitely use the information. Thanks.
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III |
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Here are some hopefully useful thoughts on radiators - the Rotax radiator part # 995-699 measures 10.5" X 11" x 1.25" thick which equals out to 115 square inches. It costs $439.
My MKIII N402RP is using a motorcycle radiator purchased for $75 from the local motorcycle scrapyard, it is off some sort of street cruiser, a big Honda, don't remember exactly. The radiator measures 16" x 7.5" x 1.25" or 120 square inches. The FSII with 582 is using a similarly sourced radiator, it measures 15" x 8" x 1.25" once again 120 square inches. In both cases the radiators were mounted below and behind the wing and engine, where prop draw and below the wing airflow will help move a lot of air through them.
On both airplanes we had excellent results most of the year, but we had a little trouble in the heat of summer on extended hard climbs, the temp would get close to redline and we would have to slack off a bit, let it cool down, and then go again. Given that the Rotax radiator is slightly smaller, it would not be surprising if other 582 operators also had some heat problems during the heat of summer.
So here is how we fixed things: added a second radiator. In the case of the FSII, we just piggybacked a second smaller radiator off some forgotten bike behind the original, problem solved. (You bleed the air out of the piggybacker by loosening the big top bolt)
On the MKIII, I decided to get rid of the brass Rotax expansion tank that is normally used to add water by just adding a dirt bike radiator instead, and attached it to the fairing that goes in front of the engine and holds the oil tank. It doesn't even face straight ahead, it is at an angle, because that lets the pipe fittings line up better, and the fairing will get the air in just fine regardless. Since all these radiators are aluminum, the added weight is minimal.
Temps now stay constant year around on both airplanes.
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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:44 am Post subject: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III |
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Richard, If you ever do it again, get a radiator off an 80's Honda Magna. Doesn't matter whether the 750 or 1100. I've put them on a gray head and a blue head. Never had a cooling problem. When I flew the Mk IIIX with the blue head home to her owner it was 116 degrees in my backyard when I taxied out for take off. I climbed directly to 6500 (5000 agl) and temps never got out of the green.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:06 AM, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>
Here are some hopefully useful thoughts on radiators - the Rotax radiator part # 995-699 measures 10.5" X 11" x 1.25" thick which equals out to 115 square inches. It costs $439.
My MKIII N402RP is using a motorcycle radiator purchased for $75 from the local motorcycle scrapyard, it is off some sort of street cruiser, a big Honda, don't remember exactly. The radiator measures 16" x 7.5" x 1.25" or 120 square inches. The FSII with 582 is using a similarly sourced radiator, it measures 15" x 8" x 1.25" once again 120 square inches. In both cases the radiators were mounted below and behind the wing and engine, where prop draw and below the wing airflow will help move a lot of air through them.
On both airplanes we had excellent results most of the year, but we had a little trouble in the heat of summer on extended hard climbs, the temp would get close to redline and we would have to slack off a bit, let it cool down, and then go again. Given that the Rotax radiator is slightly smaller, it would not be surprising if other 582 operators also had some heat problems during the heat of summer.
So here is how we fixed things: added a second radiator. In the case of the FSII, we just piggybacked a second smaller radiator off some forgotten bike behind the original, problem solved. (You bleed the air out of the piggybacker by loosening the big top bolt)
On the MKIII, I decided to get rid of the brass Rotax expansion tank that is normally used to add water by just adding a dirt bike radiator instead, and attached it to the fairing that goes in front of the engine and holds the oil tank. It doesn't even face straight ahead, it is at an angle, because that lets the pipe fittings line up better, and the fairing will get the air in just fine regardless. Since all these radiators are aluminum, the added weight is minimal.
Temps now stay constant year around on both airplanes.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1
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Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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mike91911
Joined: 03 Jul 2013
Posts: 14
Location: Riverside, RI
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III |
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As far as mounting what is involved? Do I need a new mounting kit? Any idea what they cost?
Mike
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:38 pm Post subject: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III |
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Mike, I checked the Two Stroke Installation Manual and the 503 and 582 have the same mounting dimensions, 94 mm X 153 mm, so you should be able to just bolt the 582 on. As I said before, if you use an "E" gearbox you have to move the hole pattern aft 3/4" (.750") to clear the starter motor and the rear motor mount cross member on the Kolb fuselage weldment.
Rick Girard
On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 1:30 PM, mike91911 <ko1m.mike(at)gmail.com (ko1m.mike(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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mike91911
Joined: 03 Jul 2013
Posts: 14
Location: Riverside, RI
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III |
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Thank you so much. This is all very new to me and I still can't believe I own my own plane.
Most people seem to be trying to talk me into going with the 582. My budget is limited but I want to do it right the first time and not be sorry I didn't upgrade to the 582. I guess I have some decisions to make.
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:56 pm Post subject: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III |
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Mike, If you have the 503 it will serve as a good single place engine and you can save your money until you know that you want to do. Your choices aren't limited to just a 582. Flying the 503 for awhile and getting used to the plane will give you more time to explore your options.
Rick
do not archive
On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 9:45 PM, mike91911 <ko1m.mike(at)gmail.com (ko1m.mike(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "mike91911" <ko1m.mike(at)gmail.com (ko1m.mike(at)gmail.com)>
Thank you so much. This is all very new to me and I still can't believe I own my own plane.
Most people seem to be trying to talk me into going with the 582. My budget is limited but I want to do it right the first time and not be sorry I didn't upgrade to the 582. I guess I have some decisions to make.
[quote="rickofudall"]Mike, I checked the Two Stroke Installation Manual and the 503 and 582 have the same mounting dimensions, 94 mm X 153 mm, so you should be able to just bolt the 582 on. As I said before, if you use an "E" gearbox you have to move the hole pattern aft 3/4" (.750") to clear the starter motor and the rear motor mount cross member on the Kolb fuselage weldment.
Rick Girard
On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 1:30 PM, mike91911 Â wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "mike91911"
>
> Â As far as mounting what is involved? Do I need a new mounting kit? Any idea what they cost?
> Â Mike
>
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> Â Read this topic online here:
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> Â http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405437#405437 (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405437#405437)
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--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
 � - Groucho Marx
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Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
 - Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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mike91911
Joined: 03 Jul 2013
Posts: 14
Location: Riverside, RI
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| Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III |
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I have a B gearbox now. It was mentioned above that I'd be happier with a C gearbox. Could you elaborate?
Mike
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:02 pm Post subject: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III |
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It has to do with the inertial mass of the prop. The "B" is limited to 3000 kg/cm^2, the "C" can take twice that much. It means you can run a Warp Drive prop, pretty much the heaviest on the market. You also have a better choice of gear ratios, IMHO. I have run a 2.62 and a 4.00 with a 582. The 2.62 was on an "X", the 4.00 on my "C". The "X" needed the standard rudder trim tab (see the Kolb drawing, attached), my "C" needs a trim tab less than half the size and with barely any deflection (less than 5 degrees)
My neighbors also comment that the "X" was much louder and since the only difference was the gear ratio (I ran the same prop on both aircraft to test the difference between the gearbox ratios) and there was no difference in performance except that my "C" was almost 80 lb lighter with commensurate better climb.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 8:16 PM, mike91911 <ko1m.mike(at)gmail.com (ko1m.mike(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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lownslow
Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III |
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can I throw another question out there? I am putting a "Rotax Rick" 670 on a Classic Mark III and I'm wondering if I am OK with an E gearbox(after seeing the comment regarding having to move the 582 mount back 3/4" to clear the starter going from the 503 to the 582
any thoughts? am I ok with the E gearbox?
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rowedenny
Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:53 pm Post subject: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III |
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You'll be fine, moving a 670 rearward a little shouldn't cause any CG issues as it is much lighter than 912s and VW engines many are using.
Dennis "Skid" Rowe
Mk3, 690L-70, Leechburg, PA
On Aug 4, 2013, at 11:30 PM, "lownslow" <mnmcouillard(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
can I throw another question out there? I am putting a "Rotax Rick" 670 on a Classic Mark III and I'm wondering if I am OK with an E gearbox(after seeing the comment regarding having to move the 582 mount back 3/4" to clear the starter going from the 503 to the 582
any thoughts? am I ok with the E gearbox?
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lownslow
Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Upgrading from 503 to 582 on Mark III |
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awesome Dennis, thanks so much, sir!
I figured that was the case but wanted to be sure. I appreciate it!
Mike
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