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Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea?

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rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 796

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:50 pm Post subject: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea?

Hi Group



In the very near future I need to bond FL18P and FL18S to the bottom of my fuse. These are the the two hinge brackets that get bolted to the fuse after you bond in place with 4 fasteners.



When bonding these in place, you need to try and get them parallel to each other, parallel to the center-line of the fuse while making sure that the pivot holes are aligned with both of your inboard flap hinges (W19s).



I'm thinking I will bond my two FL18P and FL18S to a piece of wood (like Fred Klein did) to keep them parallel to each other and in the same plain.



The thing is after you goop things up with Redux/flox and ready to bond into position, lefty/righty needs to be in proper position in relation to the flap cross tube and the fore/aft and vertical needs to be in alignment with both the starboard and port inboard center-line of the inboard W19 flap hinges.



I'm thinking pretty hard I want to bond both of my FL16s to my fuse with Bondo. The FL16s are the hinge arms that get mounted to the flap cross tube with two fasteners.



You see if these FL16s are temporarily bonded in position, once my FL18P + S are temporarily bonded to a piece of wood, then I goop them up with Redux/flox, set into position and I can insert actual pivot hardware between FL18P+ S and FL16s to make sure pivot hole alignment is perfect with inboard W19 flap hinges.



Question:

Is a bad idea? Or is there an easier way?



I just turned two aluminium bushings that center sewing thread in the .1875 ' diameter holes of W19s. Using a mini center drill and a finger pressure only drill chuck, drilling the .0145" holes was a piece of cake.



Ron Parigoris

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:39 pm Post subject: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea?

Ron...see indented comments...Fred

On Jul 28, 2013, at 8:51 PM, rparigoris wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm thinking pretty hard I want to bond both of my FL16s to my fuse with Bondo. The FL16s are the hinge arms that get mounted to the flap cross tube with two fasteners.

	




		After looking at the build manual and my own photos taken during construction, it's my opinion that bonding the FL16s to the fuselage w/ bondo is not a good idea...I believe the key for this step is to ensure that the bolt holes in the FL18s are perfectly aligned w/ those in the W19s...if you want to trial fit the FL16s, do so as long as you can ensure the FL18s are shimmed in perfect alignment and don't move...once the FL18s are reduxed in place and bolted thru the fuse and you've dispensed w/ the alignment string, bolting the FL16s to the FL18s is straightforward. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  

You see if these FL16s are temporarily bonded in position, once my FL18P + S are temporarily bonded to a piece of wood, then I goop them up with Redux/flox, set into position and I can insert actual pivot hardware between FL18P+ S and FL16s to make sure pivot hole alignment is perfect with inboard W19 flap hinges.

	




		May	be I'm missing something, but this sounds  backwards...the FL18s should determine the location of the hinge point w/ the FL16s...not the other way around.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Question:

Is a bad idea? 	




		I think so



 	  Quote: 	
		  Or is there an easier way?

	




		Follow the manual and align the FL18s as shown in my pixs...but when I say "follow the manual", I certainly do NOT recommend following the SEQUENCE of operations shown in the manual; namely, to do this whole flap installation AFTER the top is bonded on...I understand that you HAVE already bonded on your top and...for the life of me...I simply cannot imagine having to deal with what you're facing...You have my most sincere condolences...though I presume that you have yet to install the baggage bay rear bulkhead...I give a hearty salute to anyone who has managed to install the flap mechanism AFTER the top has been bonded on the bottom fuselage.

		I did my damnedest to do absolutely EVERYTHING I could possibly do in the tailcone BEFORE bonding on the top and bonding in the ...of course I used many many clecoes to ensure that trial fitting of the top was skookum (in perfect alignment).



 	  Quote: 	
		  I just turned two aluminium bushings that center sewing thread in the .1875 ' diameter holes of W19s. Using a mini center drill and a finer pressure only drill chuck, drilling the .0145" holes was a piece of cake.

	




		You be the Zen master Ron...with what you're facing, being a yoga master wouldn't hurt either,





		Fred

 [quote][b]

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 796

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea?

Hi Fred



Thx. for the reply. I think I did a poor job of conveying my idea of Bondoing in place a positioning point.



In other words what I want to do is bond the FL18P + S to a piece of wood like you did.



Then I want to get FL18P + S in perfect alignment with the inboard flap hinges W19s, checking to make sure they are positioned correctly left and right. 



I think we are in agreement here. 



Now I'm having a hard time figuring out how I can remove the FL18P + S that are stuck to the piece of wood and get it back to this perfect registration after gooped up with Redux/flox.



What I'm proposing is when everything is in perfect alignment, sneak the FL16s in place, being careful to not change the perfect registration, and  bolt the FL18s to the FL16s, then Bondo the FL16s to the fuse. Now I have the pivot holes of the FL16s in the perfect position too.



I can then remove the FL18s that are bonded to the piece of wood, goop them up with Redux /flox, then when I set in place, I will again insert the bolts between the FL18s and FL16s and I should have the FL18s in perfect position for the cure?



I'm just proposing to use the pivot hole of the FL16s Bondoed to the fuse as a positioning jig. I could do the same thing by bonding in  a piece of metal or wood, it just that the FL16s happen to have the correct size hole in them already and happen to be close at hand. Putting 3M packaging tape on the surface of FL16s and scuffing the tape makes for a surface that sticks good enough and makes for EZ clean up.



If you completly understood my proposal and just plain think it's a bad idea, how did you make sure your FL18s were in perfect alignment after you gooped them up with Redux/flox?



My baggage bay is not yet installed, my build partner Wayne is slight, so he is going to get most of the in the back work to do!



Ron Parigoris

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:32 am Post subject: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea?

Fred

agree with you.

Graham

        From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent:  Monday, 29 July 2013, 6:39

 Subject: Re: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea?

  

 

Ron...see indented comments...Fred

On Jul 28, 2013, at 8:51 PM, rparigoris wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm thinking pretty hard I want to bond both of my FL16s to my fuse with Bondo. The FL16s are the hinge arms that get mounted to the flap cross tube with two fasteners.

	




		After looking at the build manual and my own photos taken during construction, it's my opinion that bonding the FL16s to the fuselage w/ bondo is not a good idea...I believe the key for this step is to ensure that the bolt holes in the FL18s are perfectly aligned w/ those in the W19s...if you want to trial fit the FL16s, do so as long as you can ensure the FL18s are shimmed in perfect alignment and don't move...once the FL18s are reduxed in place and bolted thru the fuse and you've dispensed w/ the alignment string, bolting the FL16s to the FL18s is straightforward. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  

You see if these FL16s are temporarily bonded in position, once my FL18P + S are temporarily bonded to a piece of wood, then I goop them up with Redux/flox, set into position and I can insert actual pivot hardware between FL18P+ S and FL16s to make sure pivot hole alignment is perfect with inboard W19 flap hinges.

	




		May	be I'm missing something, but this sounds  backwards...the FL18s should determine the location of the hinge point w/ the FL16s...not the other way around.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Question:

Is a bad idea? 	




		I think so



 	  Quote: 	
		  Or is there an easier way?

	




		Follow the manual and align the FL18s as shown in my pixs...but when I say "follow the manual", I certainly do NOT recommend following the SEQUENCE of operations shown in the manual;  namely, to do this whole flap installation AFTER the top is bonded on...I understand that you HAVE already bonded on your top and...for the life of me...I simply cannot imagine having to deal with what you're facing...You have my most sincere condolences...though I presume that you have yet to install the baggage bay rear bulkhead...I give a hearty salute to anyone who has managed to install the flap mechanism AFTER the top has been bonded on the bottom fuselage.

		I did my damnedest to do absolutely EVERYTHING I could possibly do in the tailcone BEFORE bonding on the top and bonding in the ...of course I used many many clecoes to ensure that trial fitting of the top was skookum (in perfect alignment).



 	  Quote: 	
		  I just turned two aluminium bushings that center sewing thread in the .1875 ' diameter holes of W19s. Using a mini center drill and a finer pressure only drill chuck, drilling the .0145" holes was a piece of cake.

	




		You be the Zen master Ron...with what you're facing, being a yoga master wouldn't hurt either,





		Fred

  	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:49 am Post subject: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea?

I know the manual says string line through the hole centres,

But to me this was too open to visual error,I used a thin rope that was a

neat fit

But not tight so it could run freely through the holes, threaded it through

All four holes then hung a tin of ampreg on each end of the rope, this

pulled

Two centre holes into line with the outer two holes, did a dry run to see

how much

Flox bed was required, did the flox bed and put it all back as described and

it worked

Well, at final assembly it all aligned perfectly.



That's my 2 cents worth, maybe you can gleen something of use out of it



Regards

craig

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:57 am Post subject: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea?

Ron...see indented comments below...Fred

On Jul 29, 2013, at 12:14 AM, rparigoris wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Now I'm having a hard time figuring out how I can remove the FL18P + S that are stuck to the piece of wood and get it back to this perfect registration after gooped up with Redux/flox.

	




		I used either a dab of bondo or some hot glue to bond the FL18s to the piece of wood...a light tap on a chisel separated them in a jif.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

What I'm proposing is when everything is in perfect alignment, sneak the FL16s in place, being careful to not change the perfect registration, and  bolt the FL18s to the FL16s, then Bondo the FL16s to the fuse. Now I have the pivot holes of the FL16s in the perfect position too.



I can then remove the FL18s that are bonded to the piece of wood, goop them up with Redux /flox, then when I set in place, I will again insert the bolts between the FL18s and FL16s and I should have the FL18s in perfect position for the cure?

	




		I believe using the string...especially w/ your clever centering machinement...is a more accurate way to ensure alignment than to rely upon the bolts...but use your own judgement.

		In my case, I did NOT remove the FL18s from the piece of wood until AFTER they were reduxed and cured in final position.

		Good luck,

		Fred

 [quote][b]

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 796

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:50 am Post subject: Re: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea?

Craig, Thx. for the reply.



Fred, I'm still unclear on how you reproduced the alignment for the cure once you gooped things up and set into position.



I think you had the wood bonded to the aluminium beforehand. Then I think you gooped up the bonding surface with Redux/flox and set into position. From your last reply, perhaps then you strung the string, with things gooped up, got things centered on the string, then put Bondo on the wood to fuse to hold in place for cure? Perhaps Redux/flox was thick enough you just aligned and let it cure on its own?



Ron Parigoris

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:43 am Post subject: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea?

Ron...sorry for the confusion...what's missing from my photo sequence is a shot showing the FL18 (still temp. glued to the wood) set in the bed of Redux/flox.  The "goop" was quite stiff. I did NOT bondo the wood to the fuse bottom. After placing the FL18s in the goop, I ran the string, tapped the wood/FL18 assembly into alignment, and let it cure...Bob's your Uncle...Fred



On Jul 29, 2013, at 8:50 AM, rparigoris wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Craig, Thx. for the reply.

 

 Fred, I'm still unclear on how you reproduced the alignment for the cure once you gooped things up and set into position.

 

 I think you had the wood bonded to the aluminium beforehand. Then I think you gooped up the bonding surface with Redux/flox and set into position. From your last reply, perhaps then you strung the string, with things gooped up, got things centered on the string, then put Bondo on the wood to fuse to hold in place for cure? Perhaps Redux/flox was thick enough you just aligned and let it cure on its own?

 

 Ron Parigoris

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=405571#405571

kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:11 pm Post subject: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea?

Ron,



This suggestion may help you with your perceived problem.



Drill a 3/32" or 7/64" hole right through an AN3 bolt and use this bolt to 

temporarily assemble a FL16 / FL18 combination.  The string line (fishing 

line in my case) can now be run through the hollow bolt and the FL16 can be 

clamped to the lugs on the cross tube for alignment of the hinge point.  It 

made my life a lot easier at the time!



Cheers

Kingsley in Oz

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:49 am Post subject: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea?

exactly what I did Kingsley

Graham

        From: Kingsley Hurst <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 1:10

 Subject: Re: Re: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea?

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au (kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au)>

Ron,

This suggestion may help you with your perceived problem.

Drill a 3/32" or 7/64" hole right through an AN3 bolt and use this bolt to temporarily assemble a FL16 / FL18 combination.  The string line (fishing line in my case) can now be run through the hollow bolt and the FL16 can be clamped to the lugs on the cross tube for alignment of the hinge point.  It made my life a lot easier at the time!

Cheersp;                 -Matt Dralle, Libution" =======

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 796

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Is bonding FL16 to fuse a bad idea?

Hi group



Thx. for your help and input.



Having a pass through for the FL 18 / FL 16 pivot was a good idea.



I rigged wings with flap cross tube installed between flaps, lifted the flaps to match wing jig, assembled FL 16s clamped and between the lugs on the flap cross tube, installed FL 18s with a pivot s that had holes for string pass through, put a bushing on the inner flap hinges to hold string centered, then when everything was adjusted with string as centered as we could get, then  Bondoed the flap cross tube to fuse (lefty-righty centered), then FL 16s to fuse both on top and bottom of floor. 



In order to get registration of FL 18s perfectly parallel and aligned with FL 16s, we used two stacks of black Nylon wide area washers (larger in diameter compared to the white ones that come with the kit).



Insert hollow pivot and clamp and you get perfect and repeatable registration of  FL 18s for bonding.



Worked well.



Some pics after Fred Flaps:

http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=86985



Ron Parigoris

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