Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Navman Fuel Flow Meter

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Navman Fuel Flow Meter

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

ventura(at)brandeis.edu
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:53 pm Post subject: Navman Fuel Flow Meter

This is a post I made on one of the canard lists a couple months ago.  I 

got no response

there, so I thought someone here might have some information.  First a 

little background.

A member of that canard list posted a Navman fuel flow meter for sale on 

the list,

and a well respected member of that list condemned the use of that flow 

meter in aircraft

because it uses a plastic housing in its flow transducer, and at least 

one pilot was killed

when that housing failed, feeding large amounts of fuel to an inflight fire.



========================================================



First I want to thank Marc for his strong condemnation of the Navman

Fuel Flow Meter.  (I started to say "vociferous condemnation" but I am

not sure I know what that means.)  That enabled me to buy a used one

very inexpensively.  I bought it primarily for automotive and motorcycle

fuel flow testing, and it may see limited aviation use in testing fuel

flow to large model airplane engines. (Some model airplane engines use

alcohol and nitro-methane fuels; do any of you know if the Navman sensor

will be damaged by those kinds of fuels?)



However, one of you got my attention by mentioning that the Navman

electronics can be used with other manufacturer's transducers, so at

least part of the Navman may eventually get into my LongEz.  If it

happens, this is a long way off, but I have a few questions related to

that topic I would like to ask while this is all fresh in the collective

canard-aviators consciousness:



1.  Most flow transducers use small "turbines".  Since all the fuel

flows through the transducer, do these turbine sensors have a failure

mode that can block the fuel flow, for example if the turbine seizes, or

can enough fuel still get through for me to limp to an airport?



2. Which transducers would you recommend?  Are there any metal housing

turbine type automotive transducers that you consider acceptable?  The

one in my car works very well.



3. There is an extra calibration procedure in the Navman manual for use

with their sensor (pour a know amount of fuel through the transducer,

and  tell the electronics what that was).  I assume I would follow the

same procedure to calibrate any other transducer I hook up to it.  Is

that correct, or is there anything else I would have to do?



4.  What pins correspond to what function in the Navman connector? I

obviously need that information to hook up the Navman electronics to

someone else's transducer.  I am sure I could figure that out with a

volt meter and a scope too, but is there any other modification necessary?



5.  Is there anything else I have missed?



Thanks for your help. --Joel

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

holger-d(at)shadowbrush.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:50 pm Post subject: Navman Fuel Flow Meter

Hi Joel,

       

       When searching for a metal housing transducer, have you looked at       the 'Red Cube':       http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/eift60.php ? Oh, the       price went down $10! Anyway, it's what some of the RV crowd is       using. If you go to http://www.vansairforce.com , there are lots       of discussions around it in the forum. Here's a thread that       discusses the best installation location:       http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?34031-fuel-flow-sensor-installation       . The technical documentation says no additional pressure drop       with blocked rotor. 

       

       Buddy has the FlowScan              201A-6:       http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/mglfuelflowsensor.php       installed and is happy with it. When I asked about a blocked rotor       he said there is an increased pressure drop, but minimal and not       affecting operations, at least on the paper. 

       

       Holger

       

       

       On 7/31/13 3:52 PM, Joel Ventura wrote:

     

     [quote]-->       AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joel Ventura       <ventura(at)brandeis.edu> (ventura(at)brandeis.edu)       

       

       This is a post I made on one of the canard lists a couple months       ago.  I got no response       

       there, so I thought someone here might have some information.        First a little background.       

       A member of that canard list posted a Navman fuel flow meter for       sale on the list,       

       and a well respected member of that list condemned the use of that       flow meter in aircraft       

       because it uses a plastic housing in its flow transducer, and at       least one pilot was killed       

       when that housing failed, feeding large amounts of fuel to an       inflight fire.       

       

       ========================================================       

       

       First I want to thank Marc for his strong condemnation of the       Navman       

       Fuel Flow Meter. ..

     [b]

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:32 pm Post subject: Navman Fuel Flow Meter

I certainly wouldn't run a plastic       transducer on the pressurized side on a fuel injected engine, but       not all things plastic are always bad (as you apparently know, if       you're posting on the canard list). The plastic transducers are       typically used in both off-road vehicles and boats. They seem to       survive in marine environments, which are just as hostile as a/c,       and almost as dangerous. Running one on the cool side of the       firewall on a carb'd engine is worth looking at. There are several       other brands of marine fuel flow meters that have seen successful       use in a/c. (I've been running a Lowrance model in an RV-4 for       years.)

       

       Charlie

       

       

       On 08/06/2013 03:50 PM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote:

     

     [quote]              Hi Joel,

         

         When searching for a metal housing transducer, have you looked         at the 'Red Cube': http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/eift60.php         ? Oh, the price went down $10! Anyway, it's what some of the RV         crowd is using. If you go to http://www.vansairforce.com         , there are lots of discussions around it in the forum. Here's a         thread that discusses the best installation location: http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?34031-fuel-flow-sensor-installation         . The technical documentation says no additional pressure drop         with blocked rotor. 

         

         Buddy has the FlowScan                  201A-6: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/mglfuelflowsensor.php         installed and is happy with it. When I asked about a blocked         rotor he said there is an increased pressure drop, but minimal         and not affecting operations, at least on the paper. 

         

         Holger

         

         

         On 7/31/13 3:52 PM, Joel Ventura wrote:

       

        	  Quote: 	
		  -->          AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joel Ventura <ventura(at)brandeis.edu> (ventura(at)brandeis.edu)         

         

         This is a post I made on one of the canard lists a couple months         ago.  I got no response 

         there, so I thought someone here might have some information.          First a little background. 

         A member of that canard list posted a Navman fuel flow meter for         sale on the list, 

         and a well respected member of that list condemned the use of         that flow meter in aircraft 

         because it uses a plastic housing in its flow transducer, and at         least one pilot was killed 

         when that housing failed, feeding large amounts of fuel to an         inflight fire. 

         

         ======================================================== 

         

         First I want to thank Marc for his strong condemnation of the         Navman 

         Fuel Flow Meter. ..

       	
       

     [b]

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:43 pm Post subject: Navman Fuel Flow Meter

The transducer he suggested is not "plastic". It probably does have a 

plastic turbine wheel inside, but it is the certified fuel flow 

transducer from Electronics International with all metal case.



On 8/6/2013 2:31 PM, Charlie England wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I certainly wouldn't run a plastic transducer on the pressurized side 

 on a fuel injected engine, but not all things plastic are always bad 

 (as you apparently know, if you're posting on the canard list). The 

 plastic transducers are typically used in both off-road vehicles and 

 boats. They seem to survive in marine environments, which are just as 

 hostile as a/c, and almost as dangerous. Running one on the cool side 

 of the firewall on a carb'd engine is worth looking at. There are 

 several other brands of marine fuel flow meters that have seen 

 successful use in a/c. (I've been running a Lowrance model in an RV-4 

 for years.)



 Charlie

 On 08/06/2013 03:50 PM, Holger Selover-Stephan wrote:

> Hi Joel,

>

> When searching for a metal housing transducer, have you looked at the 

> 'Red Cube': http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/eift60.php 

> ? Oh, the price went down $10! Anyway, it's what some of the RV crowd 

> is using. If you go to http://www.vansairforce.com , there are lots 

> of discussions around it in the forum. Here's a thread that discusses 

> the best installation location: 

> http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?34031-fuel-flow-sensor-installation 

> . The technical documentation says no additional pressure drop with 

> blocked rotor.

>

> Buddy has the FlowScan 201A-6: 

> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/mglfuelflowsensor.php 

> installed and is happy with it. When I asked about a blocked rotor he 

> said there is an increased pressure drop, but minimal and not 

> affecting operations, at least on the paper.

>

> Holger

> On 7/31/13 3:52 PM, Joel Ventura wrote:

>> 

>> <ventura(at)brandeis.edu>

>>

>> This is a post I made on one of the canard lists a couple months 

>> ago.  I got no response

>> there, so I thought someone here might have some information. First 

>> a little background.

>> A member of that canard list posted a Navman fuel flow meter for 

>> sale on the list,

>> and a well respected member of that list condemned the use of that 

>> flow meter in aircraft

>> because it uses a plastic housing in its flow transducer, and at 

>> least one pilot was killed

>> when that housing failed, feeding large amounts of fuel to an 

>> inflight fire.

>>

>> ========================================================

>>

>> First I want to thank Marc for his strong condemnation of the Navman

>> Fuel Flow Meter. ..

>



 *

 *

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

n520tx(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:07 pm Post subject: Navman Fuel Flow Meter

On Tue, 2013-08-06 at 17:41 -0700, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <kellym(at)aviating.com>

 

 The transducer he suggested is not "plastic". 


	


I think Charlie was referring to the OP discussing the "Navman Fuel Flow

Meter" ... which is certainly plastic. I've been running one in my RV7a

for 10 yrs (carbureted O-360) without incident. I had to re-read a few

posts to understand that myself, since I agree that the red cube is

certainly not plastic, and is what I'm using in my 10.



--Ron

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:53 pm Post subject: Navman Fuel Flow Meter

This may be of interest to those running a Navman flow sensor.

No horse in this race, but its worth reading I think. 

http://www.cozybuilders.org/Glenn_Saunders/Complete_Report.pdf

Tim



Sent from my iPad



On Aug 6, 2013, at 6:07 PM, Ron Walker <n520tx(at)gmail.com (n520tx(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ron Walker <n520tx(at)gmail.com (n520tx(at)gmail.com)>



On Tue, 2013-08-06 at 17:41 -0700, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen

<kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>



The transducer he suggested is not "plastic". 

	


I think Charlie was referring to the OP discussing the "Navman Fuel Flow

Meter" ... which is certainly plastic. I've been running one in my RV7a

for 10 yrs (carbureted O-360) without incident. I had to re-read a few

posts to understand that myself, since I agree that the red cube is

certainly not plastic, and is what I'm using in my 10.



--Ron

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-Li==================================================http://w====================================================





[b]

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

n520tx(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:47 am Post subject: Navman Fuel Flow Meter

On Tue, 2013-08-06 at 18:52 -0700, Tim Andres wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   This may be of interest to those running a Navman flow sensor. No

 horse in this race, but its worth reading I think.

 http://www.cozybuilders.org/Glenn_Saunders/Complete_Report.pdf Tim 


	


Interesting report -- I'm always pleased with the detail and content

that is contained within Canadian TSB reports. That said, I still have

questions about the installation and failure mode:



- was a cause of the fire identified ?

- was it the crash that caused the fracture of the meter intake ?

- was the installation of this sensor up or downstream of the fuel

pump ? 



It's not specifically called out, but it leaves you to assume that it

was indeed installed within the engine compartment. Not a good idea for

anything made of plastic materials due to the heat, let alone the

vibration. 



The fact that manufacturer of the pump specifies "not for use in

aircraft" is no surprise - no one wants the potential liability. I

blindly assumed that since I purchased mine from Spruce that it was OK

to use. With one look at it, even I figured out that it shouldn't go in

the heat of the engine area -- I mounted mine close to the fuel tank,

away from heat and vibration. Heck, even the engine and flight control

push/pull cables that I received from Vans for my RV10 have large tags

on them saying "Not for Aircraft use". 



The timing of this topic, though, hits close to home. I already have in

hand a replacement fuel flow sensor from MGL that I am in process of

installing in my 7a in place of this Navman. This thread has me

re-thinking about my intent to sell this device to another aviator.



--Ron

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:04 am Post subject: Navman Fuel Flow Meter

Ron I cant definitively answer those questions for you. This came up recently on canard aviators when one popped up for sale and was also discussed much at the time of the accident. 

It my understanding the fitting cracked, broke, leaked, and ignited while airborne on first flight after a different engine (type) was installed. 

Marc Zeitlen can give you a lot more details if you need them, and he may have been involved in the investigation, I don't recall now, but Im pretty sure I can say he will advise you park the plane until its removed. 

Tim

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 7, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Ron Walker <n520tx(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Tue, 2013-08-06 at 18:52 -0700, Tim Andres wrote:

> This may be of interest to those running a Navman flow sensor. No

> horse in this race, but its worth reading I think.

> http://www.cozybuilders.org/Glenn_Saunders/Complete_Report.pdf Tim

 Interesting report -- I'm always pleased with the detail and content

 that is contained within Canadian TSB reports. That said, I still have

 questions about the installation and failure mode:

 - was a cause of the fire identified ?

 - was it the crash that caused the fracture of the meter intake ?

 - was the installation of this sensor up or downstream of the fuel

 pump ? 

 It's not specifically called out, but it leaves you to assume that it

 was indeed installed within the engine compartment. Not a good idea for

 anything made of plastic materials due to the heat, let alone the

 vibration. 

 The fact that manufacturer of the pump specifies "not for use in

 aircraft" is no surprise - no one wants the potential liability. I

 blindly assumed that since I purchased mine from Spruce that it was OK

 to use. With one look at it, even I figured out that it shouldn't go in

 the heat of the engine area -- I mounted mine close to the fuel tank,

 away from heat and vibration. Heck, even the engine and flight control

 push/pull cables that I received from Vans for my RV10 have large tags

 on them saying "Not for Aircraft use". 

 The timing of this topic, though, hits close to home. I already have in

 hand a replacement fuel flow sensor from MGL that I am in process of

 installing in my 7a in place of this Navman. This thread has me

 re-thinking about my intent to sell this device to another aviator.

 --Ron

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

bobnoffs

Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 132
Location: northern wi.

Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:42 am Post subject: Navman Fuel Flow Meter

there are many fuel flo systems out there that use the ''red cube''. the cube is metal and i have a ''flight data computer'' that uses the red cube. i little tweaking and it is dead on. my experience with this computer has been all positive.

  bob noffs



On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 10:02 AM, Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net (tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Andres <tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net (tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 

 Ron I cant definitively answer those questions for you. This came up recently on canard aviators when one popped up for sale and was also discussed much at the time of the accident.

 It my understanding the fitting cracked, broke, leaked, and ignited while airborne on first flight after a different engine (type) was installed.

 Marc Zeitlen can give you a lot more details if you need them, and he may have been involved in the investigation, I don't recall now, but Im pretty sure I can say he will advise you park the plane until its removed.

  Tim

 

 Sent from my iPad

 

 On Aug 7, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Ron Walker <n520tx(at)gmail.com (n520tx(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 

 > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ron Walker <n520tx(at)gmail.com (n520tx(at)gmail.com)>

 >

 > On Tue, 2013-08-06 at 18:52 -0700, Tim Andres wrote:

 >> This may be of interest to those running a Navman flow sensor. No

 >> horse in this race, but its worth reading I think.

 >> http://www.cozybuilders.org/Glenn_Saunders/Complete_Report.pdf Tim

 >

 > Interesting report -- I'm always pleased with the detail and content

 > that is contained within Canadian TSB reports. That said, I still have

 > questions about the installation and failure mode:

 >

 > - was a cause of the fire identified ?

 > - was it the crash that caused the fracture of the meter intake ?

 > - was the installation of this sensor up or downstream of the fuel

 > pump ?

 >

 > It's not specifically called out, but it leaves you to assume that it

 > was indeed installed within the engine compartment. Not a good idea for

 > anything made of plastic materials due to the heat, let alone the

 > vibration.

 >

 > The fact that manufacturer of the pump specifies "not for use in

 > aircraft" is no surprise - no one wants the potential liability. I

 > blindly assumed that since I purchased mine from Spruce that it was OK

 > to use. With one look at it, even I figured out that it shouldn't go in

 > the heat of the engine area -- I mounted mine close to the fuel tank,

 > away from heat and vibration. Heck, even the engine and flight control

 > push/pull cables that I received from Vans for my RV10 have large tags

 > on them saying "Not for Aircraft use".

 >

 > The timing of this topic, though, hits close to home. I already have in

 > hand a replacement fuel flow sensor from MGL that I am in process of

 > installing in my 7a in place of this Navman. This thread has me

 > re-thinking about my intent to sell this device to another aviator.

 >

 > --Ron

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 



[b]

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum