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stopping engine in flight

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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:05 am Post subject: stopping engine in flight

Some time ago there was some discussion about stopping & 

restarting the engine in flight. Yesterday I was 

experimenting with this in order to research glide angles 

with engine idling and actually stopped. I was frustrated 

in this because with the ignition off my prop continued to 

windmill with the speed pulled right back to 50kts. This 

is with a Rotax 914 and a Woodcomp SR3000W, and I guess it 

is because this prop offers appreciably more blade area 

than say Warp drive blades. For what it is worth the 

engine fired up again immediately on switching the 

ignition back on without needing the starter.

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 796

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:36 am Post subject: Re: stopping engine in flight

Hi David



"I was frustrated in this because with the ignition off my prop continued to windmill with the speed pulled right back to 50kts."



I owned a 1948 Cessna 170 rag-wing for 19 years. I would regularity stop the prop and go gliding. 



Some of the time when the sea breeze was working well on Long Island you could maintain with the prop windmilling, but if you managed to stop the prop you could climb. I used a strap on your wrist Ball variometer.



Once you managed to get things stopped, L/D went up and sink rate went down.



Anyway to stop the fixed pitch prop on my Continental C-145 (very close to O-300) 6 cylinder, I would need to use full flaps and do a semi aggressive stall. Not a whip stall, but not a slowly pull stick in your lap either. This was especially necessary if not solo with light fuel.



Remember the ragwing 170 had hinged flaps the same size as the 120, and they didn't work very well on the 120.



Anyway, did you try full flap stall solo with light fuel to get things stopped?



Ron Parigoris

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:12 am Post subject: Re: stopping engine in flight

Sorry David, if this might be an "odd" question, but did you also try to feather the Prop? I don't know if this is possible with the Woodcomp.



Regards

Roland

XS Trigear 914 (Airmaster Prop)

nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:37 am Post subject: stopping engine in flight

David,



Don't forget that at 9.0:1, the 914 has a lot less compression than the 

912s (10.5:1). Combine that with your large blade area and it's not 

surprising that it windmills easily.



Nigel



On 12/08/2013 10:04, David Joyce wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

 Some time ago there was some discussion about stopping & restarting 

 the engine in flight. Yesterday I was experimenting with this in order 

 to research glide angles with engine idling and actually stopped. I 

 was frustrated in this because with the ignition off my prop continued 

 to windmill with the speed pulled right back to 50kts. This is with a 

 Rotax 914 and a Woodcomp SR3000W, and I guess it is because this prop 

 offers appreciably more blade area than say Warp drive blades. For 

 what it is worth the engine fired up again immediately on switching 

 the ignition back on without needing the starter.

 Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:15 am Post subject: stopping engine in flight

Roland, I do not have a feathering prop so no. And as I 

was researching how to cope with an EFTO, doing a flaps 

down stall didn't really fit either.

Regards, David

On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 06:12:38 -0700

  "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<schmidtroland(at)web.de>

 

 Sorry David, if this might be an "odd" question, but did 

you also try to feather the Prop? I don't know if this is 

possible with the Woodcomp.

 

 Regards

 Roland

 XS Trigear 914 (Airmaster Prop)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406499#406499

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:54 am Post subject: stopping engine in flight

On Aug 12, 2013, at 2:04 AM, David Joyce wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Yesterday I was experimenting with this in order to research glide angles with engine idling and actually stopped. I was frustrated in this because with the ignition off my prop continued to windmill with the speed pulled right back to 50kts. This is with a Rotax 914 and a Woodcomp SR3000W 	




David...can we presume that the SR3000W controller does NOT have a full-feathering position?

F.



 [quote][b]

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:56 am Post subject: Re: stopping engine in flight

Ow Boy , shouldn't say this. Use to stop the prop on the old Grumman AA,s 

Restart engine in dive, and do 1/2 hours free flying, with the taco stopped, it was many years ago.

C150 loops well with the pro stopped, Confessions of a QFI

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:00 am Post subject: stopping engine in flight

Fred, You can buy them with full feathering or indeed with 

reverse thrust, but I have just the standard one. Regards, 

David



On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 07:54:02 -0700

  Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 On Aug 12, 2013, at 2:04 AM, David Joyce wrote:

 

> Yesterday I was experimenting with this in order to 

>research glide angles with engine idling and actually 

>stopped. I was frustrated in this because with the 

>ignition off my prop continued to windmill with the speed 

>pulled right back to 50kts. This is with a Rotax 914 and 

>a Woodcomp SR3000W

 

 David...can we presume that the SR3000W controller does 

NOT have a full-feathering position?

 

F.

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:12 am Post subject: stopping engine in flight

wow...you could get a draggy 150 to climb over the top without any thrust?   Must have been quite a dive ....... & sight!



On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)> wrote:

  [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>

   

 Ow Boy , shouldn't say this. Use to stop the prop on the old Grumman AA,s

 Restart engine in dive, and do 1/2 hours free flying, with the taco stopped, it was many years ago.

 C150 loops well with the pro stopped, Confessions of a QFI

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406516#406516

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 le, List Admin.

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 [b]

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:23 am Post subject: stopping engine in flight

Aha...so, if I'm understanding your concerns correctly,  the sticky dilemma is the realization that in the event of an engine shutdown, your range to an emergency landing will be sharply limited w/ a forward speed of only 50 kts....?...   What was your sink rate and estimated L/D in this configuration?



F.



On Aug 12, 2013, at 7:59 AM, David Joyce wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Fred, You can buy them with full feathering or indeed with reverse thrust, but I have just the standard one. Regards, David



On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 07:54:02 -0700

Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  On Aug 12, 2013, at 2:04 AM, David Joyce wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Yesterday I was experimenting with this in order to research glide angles with engine idling and actually stopped. I was frustrated in this because with the ignition off my prop continued to windmill with the speed pulled right back to 50kts. This is with a Rotax 914 and a Woodcomp SR3000W

	
David...can we presume that the SR3000W controller does NOT have a full-feathering position?

F.

	
	


 [quote][b]

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:57 am Post subject: Re: stopping engine in flight

No Standard entry speed difficult to keep the the prop from windmilling at high speed , prop stopped ,during pull up prop windmills drag goes up ,the speed decay,s away prop stops, Plane judders and shakes as it goes over the top, then the prop goes into windmill on the pull out, 

A real work horse is the Cessna 150, draggy slow, but a strong old bird.

Alan

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:15 am Post subject: stopping engine in flight

Hi David



Was the prop full fine?  I had understood that the constant speed units

would run the prop full fine in the event of engine stoppage.  If it was be

worth trying manually setting full course and see if it makes a difference.



Regards



Pete G-RMAC



--

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:48 am Post subject: stopping engine in flight

Fred, All will be revealed in due course in the Europa 

Flyer, but I was slowing in the hope of stopping the 

engine rotating. It will glide nicely at 1:12 with the 

engine idling, at 70kts, but I suspect it would go 

slightly better with the prop stopped

Regards, David

On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 08:23:09 -0700

  Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Aha...so, if I'm understanding your concerns correctly, 

 the sticky dilemma is the realization that in the event 

of an engine shutdown, your range to an emergency landing 

will be sharply limited w/ a forward speed of only 50 

kts....?...   What was your sink rate and estimated L/D 

in this configuration?

 

F.

 

 On Aug 12, 2013, at 7:59 AM, David Joyce wrote:

 

> Fred, You can buy them with full feathering or indeed 

>with reverse thrust, but I have just the standard one. 

>Regards, David

> 

> On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 07:54:02 -0700

> Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:

>> On Aug 12, 2013, at 2:04 AM, David Joyce wrote:

>>> Yesterday I was experimenting with this in order to 

>>>research glide angles with engine idling and actually 

>>>stopped. I was frustrated in this because with the 

>>>ignition off my prop continued to windmill with the speed 

>>>pulled right back to 50kts. This is with a Rotax 914 and 

>>>a Woodcomp SR3000W

>> David...can we presume that the SR3000W controller does 

>>NOT have a full-feathering position?

>> F.

>

Gary.Leinberger(at)miller
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:47 am Post subject: stopping engine in flight

I have a Tri-Gear 912S Europa. As part of the requirement for my Motor Glider endorsement (US) I had to feather the prop, stop the engine and do some gliding. I have a three bladed Airmaster Prop with the feather option. With the short wings and the engine off, prop feathered, I show about 600 fpm down with no thermal activity. (I was at about 6000 feet, above the tops of the cumulus clouds in the area so I haven’t tried this in a thermal yet.) Plane is a bit heavy (full IFR) and I am a proper sized American – 265 lbs. And I had an instructor on board. So a lighter plane (and pilot) may do better. Should have the long wings done soon (I have given up on estimating completion dates) and will provide some better info on soaring then. 

The 912S is a high compression engine, unlike the 912 and 914. So the prop will stop when the ignition is off even if not feathered. It is also hard to start by diving alone although I have heard that a serious dive will finally get the prop wind-milling high enough for a start – I think you need at least  300 + rpm to get a charge out  of the ignition system. For mine a slight dive (100 knots) will start to move the blades a bit, and a mere touch of the starter lights it off.   

The feathering and un-feathering takes a bit of time – which I imagine will seem even longer if you wait too long when running out of lift.  

Gary Leinberger

Lancaster, Pa.

N388SG    

 [quote][b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:11 am Post subject: stopping engine in flight

Gary, Do you have a prop windmilling figure to compare it 

with? Regards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 14:47:07 -0400

  Gary Leinberger <Gary.Leinberger(at)millersville.edu> 

wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have a Tri-Gear 912S Europa. As part of the 

requirement for my Motor Glider endorsement (US) I had to 

feather the prop, stop the engine and do some gliding. I 

have a three bladed Airmaster Prop with the feather 

option. With the short wings and the engine off, prop 

feathered, I show about 600 fpm down with no thermal 

activity. (I was at about 6000 feet, above the tops of 

the cumulus clouds in the area so I haven't tried this in 

a thermal yet.) Plane is a bit heavy (full IFR) and I am 

a proper sized American - 265 lbs. And I had an 

instructor on board. So a lighter plane (and pilot) may 

do better. Should have the long wings done soon (I have 

given up on estimating completion dates) and will provide 

some better info on soaring then.

 The 912S is a high compression engine, unlike the 912 

and 914. So the prop will stop when the ignition is off 

even if not feathered. It is also hard to start by diving 

alone although I have heard that a serious dive will 

finally get the prop wind-milling high enough for a start 

- I think you need at least  300 + rpm to get a charge 

out  of the ignition system. For mine a slight dive (100 

knots) will start to move the blades a bit, and a mere 

touch of the starter lights it off.

 The feathering and un-feathering takes a bit of time - 

which I imagine will seem even longer if you wait too 

long when running out of lift.

 Gary Leinberger

 Lancaster, Pa.

 N388SG

terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:19 pm Post subject: stopping engine in flight

Hi Gary,



We have a Europa XS with a 912S and Airmaster prop and long wings.  We were interested in two important questions; when will it stop wind milling, and when will it do an air restart (in case we run the battery dead flying around with the alternator not charging).  We found the stop wind milling speed to be around 50 kts, and the air restart at around 110 kts.  These seemed near perfect speeds, by our reckoning.

BTW, we got a glide ratio of about 23:1 initially, but got up to almost 26:1 by;

1) adding a cowl flap to the bottom of the cowl (behind the radiators).

2) adding fairings to the non-retractable outrigger legs.



regards,

Terry



________________________________________

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Gary Leinberger [Gary.Leinberger(at)millersville.edu]

Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:47 AM

To: 'europa-list(at)matronics.com'

Subject: Re: stopping engine in flight



I have a Tri-Gear 912S Europa. As part of the requirement for my Motor Glider endorsement (US) I had to feather the prop, stop the engine and do some gliding. I have a three bladed Airmaster Prop with the feather option. With the short wings and the engine off, prop feathered, I show about 600 fpm down with no thermal activity. (I was at about 6000 feet, above the tops of the cumulus clouds in the area so I haven’t tried this in a thermal yet.) Plane is a bit heavy (full IFR) and I am a proper sized American – 265 lbs. And I had an instructor on board. So a lighter plane (and pilot) may do better. Should have the long wings done soon (I have given up on estimating completion dates) and will provide some better info on soaring then.

The 912S is a high compression engine, unlike the 912 and 914. So the prop will stop when the ignition is off even if not feathered. It is also hard to start by diving alone although I have heard that a serious dive will finally get the prop wind-milling high enough for a start – I think you need at least  300 + rpm to get a charge out  of the ignition system. For mine a slight dive (100 knots) will start to move the blades a bit, and a mere touch of the starter lights it off.

The feathering and un-feathering takes a bit of time – which I imagine will seem even longer if you wait too long when running out of lift.

Gary Leinberger

Lancaster, Pa.

N388SG

iancook_1(at)btinternet.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:40 pm Post subject: stopping engine in flight

Terry,

         We have just finished the spinning trials in my mono motor glider

after two years of trying to satisfy the LAA (UK) requirements to get a

Permit to Fly, so was very interested in your comments, especially about

blocking of the cooling ducts to improve the LD ratio, do you have any

further details that you can make available? I had the company (Europa) fit

small wing tip wheels to my wings so I can take the outriggers off

completely if I want to go wave flying. Is your machine a mono or Tri-gear?



Best Regards



Ian Cook

G-CBHI



--

terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:17 pm Post subject: stopping engine in flight

We have a mono-wheel.  I will see if I have some pics of the cowl flap later on.  We used narrow roller blade wheels on the outriggers and fitted aerodynamic fairings to the outrigger legs, using hot wire cut blue foam and shrink sleeve to hold it in place.



regards,

Terry



________________________________________

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Ian Cook [iancook_1(at)btinternet.com]

Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 1:40 PM

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: stopping engine in flight






Terry,

         We have just finished the spinning trials in my mono motor glider

after two years of trying to satisfy the LAA (UK) requirements to get a

Permit to Fly, so was very interested in your comments, especially about

blocking of the cooling ducts to improve the LD ratio, do you have any

further details that you can make available? I had the company (Europa) fit

small wing tip wheels to my wings so I can take the outriggers off

completely if I want to go wave flying. Is your machine a mono or Tri-gear?



Best Regards



Ian Cook

G-CBHI



--

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:59 pm Post subject: stopping engine in flight

On Aug 16, 2013, at 5:16 PM, Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  We have a mono-wheel.  I will see if I have some pics of the cowl flap later on.  We used narrow roller blade wheels on the outriggers and fitted aerodynamic fairings to the outrigger legs, using hot wire cut blue foam and shrink sleeve to hold it in place. 	




Very clever Terry...Fred

do not archive



 [quote][b]

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