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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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 Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:05 pm Post subject: Flight time logging |
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I see your point. My point was that who is acting is not set in stone
from takeoff to landing. Say John is validly acting as PIC in Bob's
plane while being safety pilot. A problem arises, at which point Bob
tosses the "hood" and says "I got it". Bob is now PIC and resolves
whatever the issue. Bob's insurance company isn't going to care that
John was acting while Bob was under the hood, because in fact it makes
no more difference to the safety of flight whether Bob or John is acting
while Bob is under the hood. They both understand before the flight that
in the case of anything unusual occurring the simulated instrument
flight will discontinue until the issue is resolved, so there is no
insurance issue.
If Bob testifies that John in fact flew as his safety pilot and acted as
PIC while Bob was under the hood, his insurance company is unlikely to
hear about it, since your hypothetical costs Bob's insurance nothing,
there is no claim, and Bob is being diligent at maintaining currency.
John's insurance will be satisfied that his PIC time was in fact valid.
So Bob's insurance company is in fact not going to be upset with him.
I'm just pointing out that who is acting during any phase of flight can
change in a heartbeat. There just needs to be good cockpit resource
management and understanding between the two pilots. Simple version is
they agree that safety pilot will act as PIC while the pilot flying is
under the hood. If any urgent situation comes up, safety pilot will
advise(fly if necessary) while pilot flying removes hood and takes over.
Not to mention all the nonsense when insurance companies and FAA get
involved and they will assume barring evidence to contrary, that the
pilot most senior in ratings/experience in the cockpit is the PIC
regardless of which seat occupied, and many cases where FAA has issued
violations on that basis. I wasn't suggesting that anyone falsify what
they log, just that it isn't that difficult to swap back and forth who
is acting as PIC and logs the time.
It is trickier when 2 or more pilots desire to log PIC simultaneously.
The max number possible is a question reserved for bar bets.
On 8/22/2013 8:36 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
| Quote: |
Okay, I can agree with this - theoretically!
I just do not like to see misinformation being distributed on the internet. If you are going to log this type of time (PIC safety pilot time) you must claim to be the actual PIC - being qualified is not enough.
Getting back to the original topic, suppose "John" applies for insurance, and says he has 300 hours of logged PIC time. He gets coverage, but unfortunately soon after has an accident, his plane is totaled, plus he is being sued. The insurance company asks to see his logbook, and they notice 50 hours logged as PIC while serving as safety pilot in "Bob's" airplane. The insurance company asks Bob to swear, under oath, that John did in fact serve as the person responsible for the operation of Bob's airplane. Bob knows that if he says 'yes' not only is he lying under oath, but his own insurance company, which would not allow John to be PIC in Bob's plane, will be very unhappy.
My point is, this is fudging the rules. Just be aware that there may be consequences. No one will care unless you have an accident, or apply for a new rating or license.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407306#407306
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Flight time logging |
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The truth is that, as you implied, who is really the PIC is only determined after the fact, by a court or the NTSB (in FAA enforcement actions). I know of one case where the court held the guy in the back seat to be the PIC.
In the example I gave, the insurance company is going to feel that John falsified his application, by overstating his PIC time. The question is, what will a judge and jury think? If Bob states that he was prepared, on a moment's notice, to countermand any order John may have given, a reaonable jury could easily find that John was never the real PIC, and therefore was not entitled to log the safety pilot time as PIC time.
People can log whatever they want; but they should know that they may have to justify and defend what they claimed, and at the most inopportune times.
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Bob Turner
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: Flight time logging |
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My last argument before I call it a night.
Take a look at the definition of PIC in 14 CFR Part 1.
It says the PIC is "the final authority..."
If Bob can countermand John's orders, there is no way John can actually be the PIC.
But I think we agree on what started all this: If you claim PIC time for time as a safety pilot, you must also claim that you were the actual PIC, as defined in part 1. Being qualified to be PIC is not enough.
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Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
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jchang10
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 227
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| Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:27 am Post subject: Flight time logging |
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Bob and Kelly, thanks for hashing this topic out in such a stand up way.
i learned something from it!
Jae
--
#40533 RV-10
First flight 10/19/2011
Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011
do not archive
On 8/22/2013 10:29 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
| Quote: |
My last argument before I call it a night.
Take a look at the definition of PIC in 14 CFR Part 1.
It says the PIC is "the final authority..."
If Bob can countermand John's orders, there is no way John can actually be the PIC.
But I think we agree on what started all this: If you claim PIC time for time as a safety pilot, you must also claim that you were the actual PIC, as defined in part 1. Being qualified to be PIC is not enough.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
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| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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_________________
#40533 RV-10
First flight 10/19/2011
Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011 |
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