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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n Guest
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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:27 pm Post subject: OT: bad circuit breaker? |
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Greetings,
I'm wondering if there is a Q&D way to test a home circuit breaker. It's a 20 amp square D that has been tripping repeatedly, but the max load I see on the circuit is 6.2 amps. There are 2 compressors and a small fan on the circuit, but the trip doesn't seem to be associated with startup of the motors. When I removed the breaker it was warm to the touch where wire goes under the screw.
My thought is to run increasing current through until it trips but I don't have a variable resistor that will handle 20amps. I thought about a 5 gal bucket and some saltwater, but it hardly seems worth the effort and risk. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions.
I'd like to know if the breaker is bad or there is some transient event on the circuit that is drawing enough to legitimately trip the breaker.
Thanks,
[quote]--
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine [b]
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fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net Guest
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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:46 pm Post subject: OT: bad circuit breaker? |
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Try swapping the wire to another breaker to see if the problem follows, stay same or goes away.
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rayj
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 4:26 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: OT: bad circuit breaker?
Greetings,
I'm wondering if there is a Q&D way to test a home circuit breaker. It's a 20 amp square D that has been tripping repeatedly, but the max load I see on the circuit is 6.2 amps. There are 2 compressors and a small fan on the circuit, but the trip doesn't seem to be associated with startup of the motors. When I removed the breaker it was warm to the touch where wire goes under the screw.
My thought is to run increasing current through until it trips but I don't have a variable resistor that will handle 20amps. I thought about a 5 gal bucket and some saltwater, but it hardly seems worth the effort and risk. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions.
I'd like to know if the breaker is bad or there is some transient event on the circuit that is drawing enough to legitimately trip the breaker.
Thanks,
[quote]--
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n Guest
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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:11 pm Post subject: OT: bad circuit breaker? |
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I put a new breaker in and started watching the system. Turns out that the A/C current draw starts at about 6amps and slowly climbs to about 18amps and then the compressor shuts off. I assumed it was the thermostat shutting off the compressor. Turns out that the only time the breaker was tripping was if the 2nd compressor started/was on when the A/C load crept high enough to make the combined load trip the breaker, and before the A/C was shut down by the internal over current protection.
So, question solved. Thanks Bevan.
Next question, why is the load caused by the A/C creeping up,and more importantly, what can be done to correct the cause?
Quote: | Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine | On 08/24/2013 06:46 PM, B Tomm wrote:
[quote] Try swapping the wire to another breaker to see if the problem follows, stay same or goes away.
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of rayj
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 4:26 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: OT: bad circuit breaker?
Greetings,
I'm wondering if there is a Q&D way to test a home circuit breaker. It's a 20 amp square D that has been tripping repeatedly, but the max load I see on the circuit is 6.2 amps. There are 2 compressors and a small fan on the circuit, but the trip doesn't seem to be associated with startup of the motors. When I removed the breaker it was warm to the touch where wire goes under the screw.
My thought is to run increasing current through until it trips but I don't have a variable resistor that will handle 20amps. I thought about a 5 gal bucket and some saltwater, but it hardly seems worth the effort and risk. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions.
I'd like to know if the breaker is bad or there is some transient event on the circuit that is drawing enough to legitimately trip the breaker.
Thanks,
[b]
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:16 pm Post subject: OT: bad circuit breaker? |
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What he said. Seriously, if the terminal is getting hot & you're confident that there's no corrosion & the screw was tight, it's a strong indicator that the internal contacts have high resistance & the resulting heat is tripping the thermal protection in the breaker. Try comparing the resistance to a known-good breaker (with both outside the panel, of course). If they are both good, it should be difficult to get a measurement on either with a normal ohm meter.
Charlie
On 08/24/2013 06:46 PM, B Tomm wrote:
[quote] Try swapping the wire to another breaker to see if the problem follows, stay same or goes away.
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of rayj
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 4:26 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: OT: bad circuit breaker?
Greetings,
I'm wondering if there is a Q&D way to test a home circuit breaker. It's a 20 amp square D that has been tripping repeatedly, but the max load I see on the circuit is 6.2 amps. There are 2 compressors and a small fan on the circuit, but the trip doesn't seem to be associated with startup of the motors. When I removed the breaker it was warm to the touch where wire goes under the screw.
My thought is to run increasing current through until it trips but I don't have a variable resistor that will handle 20amps. I thought about a 5 gal bucket and some saltwater, but it hardly seems worth the effort and risk. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions.
I'd like to know if the breaker is bad or there is some transient event on the circuit that is drawing enough to legitimately trip the breaker.
Thanks,
[b]
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mrspudandcompany(at)veriz Guest
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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:35 pm Post subject: OT: bad circuit breaker? |
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[quote] I'm wondering if there is a Q&D way to test a home circuit breaker. It's a 20 amp square D that has been tripping repeatedly, but the max load I see on the circuit is 6.2 amps. There are 2 compressors and a small fan on the circuit, but the trip doesn't seem to be associated with startup of the motors. When I removed the breaker it was warm to the touch where wire goes under the screw.
My thought is to run increasing current through until it trips but I don't have a variable resistor that will handle 20amps. I thought about a 5 gal bucket and some saltwater, but it hardly seems worth the effort and risk. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions.
I'd like to know if the breaker is bad or there is some transient event on the circuit that is drawing enough to legitimately trip the breaker.
Quote: | First of all, Was the wire screwed down tight in the breaker and no corrosion present. That being the case, is there another 20 A breaker in the box? If so, swap the breakers and see if you still have the problem.
I would discourage using a bucket of salt water!!! Very dangerous!!!
Roger
| [b]
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mrspudandcompany(at)veriz Guest
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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:39 pm Post subject: OT: bad circuit breaker? |
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Next question, why is the load caused by the A/C creeping up,and more importantly, what can be done to correct the cause?
Quote: | As the pressure goes up in the tank the compresser has to work harder to push more air into the tank, thus more load on the motor and a higher current draw.
Roger
| [quote][b]
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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n Guest
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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:50 pm Post subject: OT: bad circuit breaker? |
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Checked the questionable breaker against a new one, same resistance. I'm pretty sure the breaker is good after further investigation of the system in question. I laid out my new problem in another email.
Thanks Charlie.
Quote: | Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine | On 08/24/2013 07:16 PM, Charlie England wrote:
[quote] What he said. Seriously, if the terminal is getting hot & you're confident that there's no corrosion & the screw was tight, it's a strong indicator that the internal contacts have high resistance & the resulting heat is tripping the thermal protection in the breaker. Try comparing the resistance to a known-good breaker (with both outside the panel, of course). If they are both good, it should be difficult to get a measurement on either with a normal ohm meter.
Charlie
On 08/24/2013 06:46 PM, B Tomm wrote:
Quote: | Try swapping the wire to another breaker to see if the problem follows, stay same or goes away.
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of rayj
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 4:26 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: OT: bad circuit breaker?
Greetings,
I'm wondering if there is a Q&D way to test a home circuit breaker. It's a 20 amp square D that has been tripping repeatedly, but the max load I see on the circuit is 6.2 amps. There are 2 compressors and a small fan on the circuit, but the trip doesn't seem to be associated with startup of the motors. When I removed the breaker it was warm to the touch where wire goes under the screw.
My thought is to run increasing current through until it trips but I don't have a variable resistor that will handle 20amps. I thought about a 5 gal bucket and some saltwater, but it hardly seems worth the effort and risk. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions.
I'd like to know if the breaker is bad or there is some transient event on the circuit that is drawing enough to legitimately trip the breaker.
Thanks,
| [b]
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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n Guest
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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:15 pm Post subject: OT: bad circuit breaker? |
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Sorry if I haven't been clear. The compressor is in an air conditioner and comes to full load in a very short time.
Quote: | Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine | On 08/24/2013 07:39 PM, Roger & Jean wrote:
[quote] Next question, why is the load caused by the A/C creeping up,and more importantly, what can be done to correct the cause?
Quote: | As the pressure goes up in the tank the compresser has to work harder to push more air into the tank, thus more load on the motor and a higher current draw.
Roger
| [b]
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:46 pm Post subject: OT: bad circuit breaker? |
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Almost too many options to guess. Got a clamp on amp meter? Monitor current on the compressor line & the fan motor line. Which one is going too high?
On 08/24/2013 08:14 PM, rayj wrote:
[quote] Sorry if I haven't been clear. The compressor is in an air conditioner and comes to full load in a very short time.
Quote: | Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine | On 08/24/2013 07:39 PM, Roger & Jean wrote:
Quote: | Next question, why is the load caused by the A/C creeping up,and more importantly, what can be done to correct the cause?
Quote: | As the pressure goes up in the tank the compresser has to work harder to push more air into the tank, thus more load on the motor and a higher current draw.
Roger
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| [b]
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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n Guest
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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:08 pm Post subject: OT: bad circuit breaker? |
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I've got the unit out. I'll check, but I'm willing to bet it's the compressor. I can't imagine the fan consuming that much energy and not self destructing. And something resets after a short while and the cycle starts over.
Thanks for the help. If I figure anything out I'll post it.
Quote: | Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine | On 08/24/2013 08:44 PM, Charlie England wrote:
[quote] Almost too many options to guess. Got a clamp on amp meter? Monitor current on the compressor line & the fan motor line. Which one is going too high?
On 08/24/2013 08:14 PM, rayj wrote:
Quote: | Sorry if I haven't been clear. The compressor is in an air conditioner and comes to full load in a very short time.
Quote: | Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine | On 08/24/2013 07:39 PM, Roger & Jean wrote:
Quote: | Next question, why is the load caused by the A/C creeping up,and more importantly, what can be done to correct the cause?
Quote: | As the pressure goes up in the tank the compresser has to work harder to push more air into the tank, thus more load on the motor and a higher current draw.
Roger
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| [b]
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klehman(at)albedo.net Guest
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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:52 pm Post subject: OT: bad circuit breaker? |
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Ray
I look for dirty condenser fins, slow turning fan, or dented restricted
high pressure line all of which cause high current.
Then I make sure the compressor really is starting and coming up to
speed. ie it is not just a bad starting capacitor or start relay keeping
the start winding running and tripping the breaker in a few seconds
after startup. There are several clues when that happens but it may not
be obvious as the compressor does appear to start up.
If I don't own it I then advise replacing the unit.
If I do own it and it is expensive (or I feel like tinkering), I start
wondering about it's history and whether there is any moisture in the
refrigerant or someone has put the wrong refrigerant in so I evacuate,
dry, and put in new refrigerant. Then I'd follow my advice to others in
the above paragraph.
Ken
(no expert but I've done some HVAC work)
do not archive
On 24/08/2013 10:06 PM, rayj wrote:
Quote: | I've got the unit out. I'll check, but I'm willing to bet it's the
compressor. I can't imagine the fan consuming that much energy and not
self destructing. And something resets after a short while and the cycle
starts over.
|
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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n Guest
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Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:11 pm Post subject: OT: bad circuit breaker? |
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Ken,
I've owned it since new and used it in the same application for years. It takes at least 5 min and maybe more for the current to creep up. It puts out cold air when it's running, so I'm guessing it's the compressor motor. I gave it a good cleaning before I installed it this summer and it operated correctly for more than a month. It's a small window unit so if I can't tinker it back to life it'll be less expensive to replace than to have someone work on it. I'll check everything you mentioned. Thanks very much for the advice.
Quote: | Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN.
"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,
and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine | On 08/24/2013 09:51 PM, Ken wrote:
[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman(at)albedo.net> (klehman(at)albedo.net)
Ray
I look for dirty condenser fins, slow turning fan, or dented restricted high pressure line all of which cause high current.
Then I make sure the compressor really is starting and coming up to speed. ie it is not just a bad starting capacitor or start relay keeping the start winding running and tripping the breaker in a few seconds after startup. There are several clues when that happens but it may not be obvious as the compressor does appear to start up.
If I don't own it I then advise replacing the unit.
If I do own it and it is expensive (or I feel like tinkering), I start wondering about it's history and whether there is any moisture in the refrigerant or someone has put the wrong refrigerant in so I evacuate, dry, and put in new refrigerant. Then I'd follow my advice to others in the above paragraph.
Ken
(no expert but I've done some HVAC work)
do not archive
On 24/08/2013 10:06 PM, rayj wrote:
Quote: | I've got the unit out. I'll check, but I'm willing to bet it's the
compressor. I can't imagine the fan consuming that much energy and not
self destructing. And something resets after a short while and the cycle
starts over.
|
[b]
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Eric M. Jones
![](images/avatars/12254050275185097a1ec18.jpg)
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 565 Location: Massachusetts
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Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:45 am Post subject: Re: OT: bad circuit breaker? |
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There is a surefire trick that they used to use in the Navy. Toss the device off the stern of the ship into a couple miles of seawater. If it floats it is no good.
Then go buy a new one.
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_________________ Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
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