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Matt Dralle
Site Admin

Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 26320
Location: Livermore CA USA

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:35 pm Post subject: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...

At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep thinking about the brake system and lines.  Seem to me like some weight could be saved by going with 3/16 brake lines, (smaller line and less fluid).  Problem with small lines is the heavy  viscosity of A/C hydraulic oil, especially when cold. Solution would be automotive Dot 3 or  Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with the  Matco master cylinders and Cleveland calipers?  Maybe new o-rings could solve the problem?  Anyone know the answer?


	




Hi Dennis,



Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid between a 1/4" and a 3/16" system on a scale and weigh them.  I think that you're going to find the difference in weight is almost negligible.  Oh the other hand, the difference in braking capabilities could be deadly.  Personally, I could stand to lose 50 lbs around my belly.  That is some realy weight savings that would make my RV fly a lot better.  



I've done a fair amount of custom stuff on my RV, but when it comes to engineered stuff like the size of the brake lines, and other dimensional stuff, Van's is the man.  Van's hates fat airplanes.  If he felt that 3/16" brake lines would be adequate, I know for certain that he would have used them. 



Matt's $.02.

-

Matt Dralle



RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"

http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log

http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log

http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel

Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...



RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"

http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log

Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode



Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!

Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore

Airport.  Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions.  Archives too!

For entertainment purposes only.  http://klvk.matronics.com

_________________
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator

Matt Dralle
Site Admin

Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 26320
Location: Livermore CA USA

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:36 pm Post subject: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...

At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep thinking about the brake system and lines.  Seem to me like some weight could be saved by going with 3/16 brake lines, (smaller line and less fluid).  Problem with small lines is the heavy  viscosity of A/C hydraulic oil, especially when cold. Solution would be automotive Dot 3 or  Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with the  Matco master cylinders and Cleveland calipers?  Maybe new o-rings could solve the problem?  Anyone know the answer?


	




Hi Dennis,



Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid between a 1/4" and a 3/16" system on a scale and weigh them.  I think that you're going to find the difference in weight is almost negligible.  Oh the other hand, the difference in braking capabilities could be deadly.  Personally, I could stand to lose 50 lbs around my belly.  That is some realy weight savings that would make my RV fly a lot better.  



I've done a fair amount of custom stuff on my RV, but when it comes to engineered stuff like the size of the brake lines, and other dimensional stuff, Van's is the man.  Van's hates fat airplanes.  If he felt that 3/16" brake lines would be adequate, I know for certain that he would have used them. 



Matt's $.02.

-

Matt Dralle



RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"

http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log

http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log

http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel

Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...



RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"

http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log

Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode



Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!

Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore

Airport.  Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions.  Archives too!

For entertainment purposes only.  http://klvk.matronics.com

_________________
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator

rwstracy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:27 pm Post subject: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...

Dot 3 or 4 will destroy the rubber used in most AC brake components.   At least that was true 10 years ago and I doubt that has changed.

Tracy

RV-4

RV-8

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 31, 2013, at 21:34, Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:

> 

> 

> My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep thinking about the brake system and lines.  Seem to me like some weight could be saved by going with 3/16 brake lines, (smaller line and less fluid).  Problem with small lines is the heavy  viscosity of A/C hydraulic oil, especially when cold. Solution would be automotive Dot 3 or  Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with the  Matco master cylinders and Cleveland calipers?  Maybe new o-rings could solve the problem?  Anyone know the answer?

 Hi Dennis,

 Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid between a 1/4" and a 3/16" system on a scale and weigh them.  I think that you're going to find the difference in weight is almost negligible.  Oh the other hand, the difference in braking capabilities could be deadly.  Personally, I could stand to lose 50 lbs around my belly.  That is some realy weight savings that would make my RV fly a lot better.  

 I've done a fair amount of custom stuff on my RV, but when it comes to engineered stuff like the size of the brake lines, and other dimensional stuff, Van's is the man.  Van's hates fat airplanes.  If he felt that 3/16" brake lines would be adequate, I know for certain that he would have used them. 

 Matt's $.02.

 -

 Matt Dralle

 RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"

 http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log

 http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log

 http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel

 Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...

 RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"

 http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log

 Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode

 Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!

 Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore

 Airport.  Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions.  Archives too!

 For entertainment purposes only.  http://klvk.matronics.com

dan.pat.b(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:33 pm Post subject: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...

DennisRe use of 3/16" brake line instead of Vans' 1/4" - I'm not an engineer but the folks who design airplanes at Vans  Aircraft are - they use 1/4" brake lines for a reason - my advice would be don't do it - there is a serious safety issue here - braking action would almost certainly be dangerously impacted - want to save a few ounces - Matt offered some great advice - go on a diet - 

 Dan Bergeron

RV-7A - N307TB

425 hours since first 

     flight on 8/6/09

On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com (dralle(at)matronics.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com (dralle(at)matronics.com)>

 At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:

 >--> RV8-List message posted by: Dennis Fox <dennisfox(at)persona.ca (dennisfox(at)persona.ca)>

 >

 >My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep thinking about the brake system and lines.  Seem to me like some weight could be saved by going with 3/16 brake lines, (smaller line and less fluid).  Problem with small lines is the heavy  viscosity of A/C hydraulic oil, especially when cold. Solution would be automotive Dot 3 or  Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with the  Matco master cylinders and Cleveland calipers?  Maybe new o-rings could solve the problem?  Anyone know the answer?

 Hi Dennis,

 Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid between a 1/4" and a 3/16" system on a scale and weigh them.  I think that you're going to find the difference in weight is almost negligible.  Oh the other hand, the difference in braking capabilities could be deadly.  Personally, I could stand to lose 50 lbs around my belly.  That is some realy weight savings that would make my RV fly a lot better.  

 I've done a fair amount of custom stuff on my RV, but when it comes to engineered stuff like the size of the brake lines, and other dimensional stuff, Van's is the man.  Van's hates fat airplanes.  If he felt that 3/16" brake lines would be adequate, I know for certain that he would have used them.

 Matt's $.02.

 -

 Matt Dralle

 RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"

 http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log

 http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log

 http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel

 Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...

 RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"

 http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log

 Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full Flyer Mode

 Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!

 Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore

 Airport.  Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions.  Archives too!

 For entertainment purposes only.  http://klvk.matronics.com

 ===========

 get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 [b]

decaclops(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:52 pm Post subject: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...

Nothing wrong with 3/16" lines operationally. They make for a harder 

pedal feel. We're not moving very much fluid to where the difference in 

size would be a detriment. Really, when you think about it, brakes are 

for run up anyway. I use the MIL-PRF-83282 synthetic brake fluid. Van's 

sells it as Royco 782. It has a higher flashpoint than 5606, but is 

completely compatible. That means you can find something that will work 

when you need some fluid away from home.



Ed Holyoke



On 8/31/2013 7:33 PM, Dan Bergeron wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Dennis

 Re use of 3/16" brake line instead of Vans' 1/4" - I'm not an engineer

 but the folks who design airplanes at Vans  Aircraft are - they use 1/4"

 brake lines for a reason - my advice would be don't do it - there is a

 serious safety issue here - braking action would almost certainly be

 dangerously impacted - want to save a few ounces - Matt offered some

 great advice - go on a diet -

 Dan Bergeron

 RV-7A - N307TB

 425 hours since first

       flight on 8/6/09





 On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com

 <mailto:dralle(at)matronics.com>> wrote:



     

     <mailto:dralle(at)matronics.com>>



     At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:

      >

     <mailto:dennisfox(at)persona.ca>>

      >

      >My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep thinking about the

     brake system and lines.  Seem to me like some weight could be saved

     by going with 3/16 brake lines, (smaller line and less fluid).

       Problem with small lines is the heavy  viscosity of A/C hydraulic

     oil, especially when cold. Solution would be automotive Dot 3 or

       Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with the  Matco master

     cylinders and Cleveland calipers?  Maybe new o-rings could solve the

     problem?  Anyone know the answer?

     Hi Dennis,



     Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid between a 1/4" and

     a 3/16" system on a scale and weigh them.  I think that you're going

     to find the difference in weight is almost negligible.  Oh the other

     hand, the difference in braking capabilities could be deadly.

       Personally, I could stand to lose 50 lbs around my belly.  That is

     some realy weight savings that would make my RV fly a lot better.  



     I've done a fair amount of custom stuff on my RV, but when it comes

     to engineered stuff like the size of the brake lines, and other

     dimensional stuff, Van's is the man.  Van's hates fat airplanes.  If

     he felt that 3/16" brake lines would be adequate, I know for certain

     that he would have used them.



     Matt's $.02.

     -

     Matt Dralle



     RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"

     http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log

     http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log

     http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel

     Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...



     RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"

     http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log

     Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full

     Flyer Mode



     Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!

     Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore

     Airport.  Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions.  Archives too!

     For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com

     ===========

     get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

     ===========

     http://forums.matronics.com

     ===========

     le, List Admin.

     ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

     ===========





 *

 *

chaskuss(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:54 am Post subject: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...

Tracy is correct about automotive brake fluids destroying the stock brake O-rings. Use of DOT 3 or 4 will require replacement of all the O-rings in your master cylinders, parking brake and calipers with items made from EPDM.  See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPDM_rubber

This material has the added benefit of having a higher temperature rating, when compared to the stock Nitrile [aka Buna N] O-rings. You would also have to change out the flex hoses coming off of the master cylinders from the stock Nitrile lined units to Teflon lined stainless steel items. Use of 3/16" lines will change the feel of the brakes, but not much else. The amount of fluid transfer during braking is small.  

 I can supply a set of EPDM O-rings if you are interested in swapping to DOT 4. No sense in using the lower rated DOT 3 fluid. For improved heat resistance with the standard fluids, replace the caliper O-rings with items made of Viton rubber.

Charlie

--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 8/31/13, Tracy <rwstracy(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...

 To: "rv-list(at)matronics.com" <rv-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: Saturday, August 31, 2013, 10:27 PM

 Tracy <rwstracy(at)gmail.com>

 Dot 3 or 4 will destroy the rubber used in most AC brake

 components.   At least that was true 10 years

 ago and I doubt that has changed.

 Tracy

 RV-4

 RV-8

 Sent from my iPad

 On Aug 31, 2013, at 21:34, Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com>

 wrote:

 > 

 > 

 > At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:

 >> 

 <dennisfox(at)persona.ca>

 >> 

 >> My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep

 thinking about the brake system and lines.  Seem to me

 like some weight could be saved by going with 3/16 brake

 lines, (smaller line and less fluid).  Problem with

 small lines is the heavy  viscosity of A/C hydraulic

 oil, especially when cold. Solution would be automotive Dot

 3 or  Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with

 the  Matco master cylinders and Cleveland

 calipers?  Maybe new o-rings could solve the

 problem?  Anyone know the answer?

 > 

 > 

 > Hi Dennis,

 > 

 > Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid

 between a 1/4" and a 3/16" system on a scale and weigh

 them.  I think that you're going to find the difference

 in weight is almost negligible.  Oh the other hand, the

 difference in braking capabilities could be deadly. 

 Personally, I could stand to lose 50 lbs around my

 belly.  That is some realy weight savings that would

 make my RV fly a lot better.  

 > 

 > I've done a fair amount of custom stuff on my RV, but

 when it comes to engineered stuff like the size of the brake

 lines, and other dimensional stuff, Van's is the man. 

 Van's hates fat airplanes.  If he felt that 3/16" brake

 lines would be adequate, I know for certain that he would

 have used them. 

 > 

 > Matt's $.02.

 > 

 > 

 > -

 > Matt Dralle

 > 

 > RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"

 > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8

 Construction Log

 > http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild

 Log

 > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV

 YouTube Channel

 > Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After

 Landing Mishap...

 > 

 > RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"

 > http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization

 Log

 > Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete;

 Now In Full Flyer Mode

 > 

 > Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!

 > Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar

 at the Livermore

 > Airport.  Includes both Tower and Ground

 transmissions.  Archives too!

 > For entertainment purposes only.  http://klvk.matronics.com 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 Forum -

    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 List Contribution Web Site -

               -Matt

 Dralle, List Admin.

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:15 am Post subject: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...

We've installed 3/16" lines on several Lancairs since some need a particularly small OD to fit past part of the landing gear. Â They work very nicely and don't seem any different than 1/4" lines.

  



I second the opinion about usingÂ MIL-PRF-83282. Â There's not really any reason not to.

  



Dave Saylor

831-750-0284 CL

 



On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Ed <decaclops(at)gmail.com (decaclops(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]  --> RV-List message posted by: Ed <decaclops(at)gmail.com (decaclops(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Nothing wrong with 3/16" lines operationally. They make for a harder pedal feel. We're not moving very much fluid to where the difference in size would be a detriment. Really, when you think about it, brakes are for run up anyway. I use the MIL-PRF-83282 synthetic brake fluid. Van's sells it as Royco 782. It has a higher flashpoint than 5606, but is completely compatible. That means you can find something that will work when you need some fluid away from home.

   

 Ed Holyoke

 

 On 8/31/2013 7:33 PM, Dan Bergeron wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Dennis

 Re use of 3/16" brake line instead of Vans' 1/4" - I'm not an engineer

 but the folks who design airplanes at Vans Â Aircraft are - they use 1/4"

 brake lines for a reason - my advice would be don't do it - there is a

 serious safety issue here - braking action would almost certainly be

 dangerously impacted - want to save a few ounces - Matt offered some

 great advice - go on a diet -

 Dan Bergeron

 RV-7A - N307TB

 425 hours since first

 Â  Â  Â  flight on 8/6/09

 

 

 

 

 On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com (dralle(at)matronics.com)

 <mailto:dralle(at)matronics.com (dralle(at)matronics.com)>> wrote:

 

 Â  Â  --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com (dralle(at)matronics.com)

 Â  Â  <mailto:dralle(at)matronics.com (dralle(at)matronics.com)>>

 

 Â  Â  At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:

 Â  Â  Â >--> RV8-List message posted by: Dennis Fox <dennisfox(at)persona.ca (dennisfox(at)persona.ca)

 Â  Â  <mailto:dennisfox(at)persona.ca (dennisfox(at)persona.ca)>>

 Â  Â  Â >

 Â  Â  Â >My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep thinking about the

 Â  Â  brake system and lines. Â Seem to me like some weight could be saved

 Â  Â  by going with 3/16 brake lines, (smaller line and less fluid).

 Â  Â  Â  Problem with small lines is the heavy Â viscosity of A/C hydraulic

 Â  Â  oil, especially when cold. Solution would be automotive Dot 3 or

 Â  Â  Â  Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with the Â Matco master

 Â  Â  cylinders and Cleveland calipers? Â Maybe new o-rings could solve the

 Â  Â  problem? Â Anyone know the answer?

 

 

 Â  Â  Hi Dennis,

 

 Â  Â  Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid between a 1/4" and

 Â  Â  a 3/16" system on a scale and weigh them. Â I think that you're going

 Â  Â  to find the difference in weight is almost negligible. Â Oh the other

 Â  Â  hand, the difference in braking capabilities could be deadly.

 Â  Â  Â  Personally, I could stand to lose 50 lbs around my belly. Â That is

 Â  Â  some realy weight savings that would make my RV fly a lot better. Â 

 

 Â  Â  I've done a fair amount of custom stuff on my RV, but when it comes

 Â  Â  to engineered stuff like the size of the brake lines, and other

 Â  Â  dimensional stuff, Van's is the man. Â Van's hates fat airplanes. Â If

 Â  Â  he felt that 3/16" brake lines would be adequate, I know for certain

 Â  Â  that he would have used them.

 

 Â  Â  Matt's $.02.

 

 

 Â  Â  -

 Â  Â  Matt Dralle

 

 Â  Â  RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"

 Â  Â  http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log

 Â  Â  http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log

 Â  Â  http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel

 Â  Â  Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...

 

 Â  Â  RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"

 Â  Â  http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log

 Â  Â  Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full

 Â  Â  Flyer Mode

 

 Â  Â  Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!

 Â  Â  Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore

 Â  Â  Airport. Â Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions. Â Archives too!

 Â  Â  For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com

 

 

 Â  Â  ===========

 Â  Â  get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

 Â  Â  ===========

 Â  Â  http://forums.matronics.com

 Â  Â  ===========

 Â  Â  le, List Admin.

 Â  Â  ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 Â  Â  ===========

 

 

 

 

 *

 

 

 *

 

 	
 

 ====================================

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

 ====================================

 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 e -

  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 [b]

vanremog(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:26 am Post subject: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...

I applaud the fact that many of you have gotten educated over the years on the MIL-PRF-83282 fluid (developed in response to many military aircraft brake fires in the the early '50s) and the use of Viton O-rings.  It only took us in GA fifty years to begin adopting it.  IMO the 5606 should be consigned to the scrap bin of history.

   

  I agree with the acceptability of the 3/16" lines as well.  Been working fine for 15 yrs now on N1GV.

   

  -GV

  

  

  --

Bill Schlatterer

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:02 am Post subject: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...

Also note that EDPM is not compatible with 5606 or 83282 !    I thought I

would do the Dot3 or 4 and put in the EDPM ORings but used 5606 later

assuming if good for D3 or D4 it would work as well.  See results....not

pretty.  Soo...my thought was why change up a good design, just use the

83282 which has a higher flash point and is compatible with anything you are

likely to find at an airport if you ever need a fill away from home.  I

think there is also a better O'Ring for the stock 5606/83282 fluid as well.



Bill S



--

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Description:

Filesize:

1.98 MB

Viewed:

8813 Time(s)

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:08 am Post subject: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...

You know, Van might have made the       decision to use 1/4" for any number of reasons. It could be a       combination of factors like: it's what they always used, parts       stock commonality, ease of workability for inexperienced builders,       etc. My -7 kit shipped with the old style black fabric covered       flexible lines. Certainly not the best option, measured by several       different standards. 

       

       Look how long it took them to switch to a modern airfoil. As great       as the -3-- -8s fly, they finally switched to more modern airfoils       on the later models.

       

       Charlie

       

       On 09/01/2013 12:26 PM, vanremog(at)aol.com (vanremog(at)aol.com) wrote:

     

     [quote]         I applaud the             fact that many of you have gotten educated over the years on             the MIL-PRF-83282 fluid (developed in response to many             military aircraft brake fires in the the early '50s) and the             use of Viton O-rings.  It only took us in GA fifty years to             begin adopting it.  IMO the 5606 should be consigned to the             scrap bin of history.

          

         I agree with             the acceptability of the 3/16" lines as well.  Been working             fine for 15 yrs now on N1GV.

          

         -GV

         --

vanremog(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:38 am Post subject: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...

Nitrile/BunaN Seals = Low temp petroleum-like hydraulic fluids 5606 (non-hygroscopic)

Viton (Fluorocarbon) Seals = Higher temp petroleum-like hydraulic fluids 83282 and many ATFs (non-hygroscopic)

EPDM Seals = Dot 3 and 4 glycol fluids (hygroscopic)

Natural Rubber Seals = Girling fluid (vegetable oil based)

--

Paul Valovich

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 75

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:53 am Post subject: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...

I had some initial wear issues with my -8A left brake (built IAW Vans instructions) during Phase 1. Got those resolved and consider brakes to be a condition inspection item, pretty much ignored if working properly the rest of the time –  over 330 hrs.  I think substituting 3/16 lines would always induce a “Wonder if they’re still ok?” feeling. IMHO not worth the couple ounces of weight savings. If you are really into weight savings by the ounce there are a lot of other ways to approach your  objectives. 

Paul Valovich 

N192NM  

    [quote][b]

JohnCiolino(at)carolina.r
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:45 pm Post subject: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...

I installed 3/16â€ brake lines made by Bonaco.Â  I asked them the question about 3/16 vs. Â¼ and they pointed out that 3/16 is used on 3000lb race cars. Give them a call.Â  They should also have my dimensions and pics of my lines running from the Grove gear to the caliper.

 

I have no expertise in brake engineering but my brakes are working well.

 

John Ciolino

RV-8

N894Y

 

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor

Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 1:12 PM

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: 3/16 vs 1/4 Brake Lines...

 

We've installed 3/16" lines on several Lancairs since some need a particularly small OD to fit past part of the landing gear.  They work very nicely and don't seem any different than 1/4" lines.



 



I second the opinion about using MIL-PRF-83282.  There's not really any reason not to.



 



Dave Saylor

831-750-0284 CL



 

On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Ed <decaclops(at)gmail.com (decaclops(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

--> RV-List message posted by: Ed <decaclops(at)gmail.com (decaclops(at)gmail.com)>



Nothing wrong with 3/16" lines operationally. They make for a harder pedal feel. We're not moving very much fluid to where the difference in size would be a detriment. Really, when you think about it, brakes are for run up anyway. I use the MIL-PRF-83282 synthetic brake fluid. Van's sells it as Royco 782. It has a higher flashpoint than 5606, but is completely compatible. That means you can find something that will work when you need some fluid away from home.



Ed Holyoke



On 8/31/2013 7:33 PM, Dan Bergeron wrote:

Dennis

Re use of 3/16" brake line instead of Vans' 1/4" - I'm not an engineer

but the folks who design airplanes at Vans  Aircraft are - they use 1/4"

brake lines for a reason - my advice would be don't do it - there is a

serious safety issue here - braking action would almost certainly be

dangerously impacted - want to save a few ounces - Matt offered some

great advice - go on a diet -

Dan Bergeron

RV-7A - N307TB

425 hours since first

      flight on 8/6/09





On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com (dralle(at)matronics.com)

<mailto:dralle(at)matronics.com (dralle(at)matronics.com)>> wrote:



    --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com (dralle(at)matronics.com)

    <mailto:dralle(at)matronics.com (dralle(at)matronics.com)>>



    At 06:22 PM 8/31/2013 Saturday, you wrote:

     >--> RV8-List message posted by: Dennis Fox <dennisfox(at)persona.ca (dennisfox(at)persona.ca)

    <mailto:dennisfox(at)persona.ca (dennisfox(at)persona.ca)>>

     >

     >My RV8a project is ready for wheels, and I keep thinking about the

    brake system and lines.  Seem to me like some weight could be saved

    by going with 3/16 brake lines, (smaller line and less fluid).

      Problem with small lines is the heavy  viscosity of A/C hydraulic

    oil, especially when cold. Solution would be automotive Dot 3 or

      Dot 4, but are there compatability issues with the  Matco master

    cylinders and Cleveland calipers?  Maybe new o-rings could solve the

    problem?  Anyone know the answer?

    Hi Dennis,



    Hum, you should actually put the parts and fluid between a 1/4" and

    a 3/16" system on a scale and weigh them.  I think that you're going

    to find the difference in weight is almost negligible.  Oh the other

    hand, the difference in braking capabilities could be deadly.

      Personally, I could stand to lose 50 lbs around my belly.  That is

    some realy weight savings that would make my RV fly a lot better.  



    I've done a fair amount of custom stuff on my RV, but when it comes

    to engineered stuff like the size of the brake lines, and other

    dimensional stuff, Van's is the man.  Van's hates fat airplanes.  If

    he felt that 3/16" brake lines would be adequate, I know for certain

    that he would have used them.



    Matt's $.02.

    -

    Matt Dralle



    RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"

    http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log

    http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log

    http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel

    Status: 172+ Hours TTSN - Rebuilding Fuselage After Landing Mishap...



    RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"

    http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log

    Status: 180+ Hours Since Purchase - Upgrades Complete; Now In Full

    Flyer Mode



    Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!

    Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore

    Airport.  Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions.  Archives too!

    For entertainment purposes only. http://klvk.matronics.com

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    ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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