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Greg.Puckett(at)united.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: N-Number font

This is starting to seem a little ridiculous but,

 

Does anyone know of a commonly available computer font that meets all of the requirements of FAR 45.29 for registration marks?

 

Specifically, the way I read it, they want the width of all characters to be two thirds of the height except for 1's W's and M's. I neglected to get somebody to make me a stencil and I need to finish spraying the trim and clear tomorrow. I would like to paint the reg. marking rather than have the stick on.

 

I would like to just cut my own stencil from a product called "frisket film" and paint the number on but I'm worried that if I don't meet the letter of the regs I could be screwed. 

 

Has anyone ever run in to a problem with a DAR over this?

 

Thanks,

 

Greg Puckett

Elizabeth, CO

RV-8 (finally getting close)

Dale Ensing

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 571
Location: Aero Plantation Weddington NC

Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: N-Number font

Has anyone ever run in to a problem with a DAR over this?

Greg, you may want to check with your DAR. Recently a DAR in our area

required an RV to put on the 12 in. letters because the builder said the

plane was capable of more than 200 mph.

Dale

_________________
Dale Ensing
RV-6A
Aero Plantation
Weddington NC

dan(at)rvproject.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: N-Number font

No offense to the DARs on this list, but don't let the DAR push you around. 

Here's the reg...from Part 45.29:



(iii) Marks at least 3 inches high may be displayed on an aircraft for which 

the FAA has issued an experimental certificate under §21.191 (d), §21.191 

(g), or §21.191 (i) of this chapter to operate as an exhibition aircraft, an 

amateur-built aircraft, or a light-sport aircraft when the maximum cruising 

speed of the aircraft does not exceed 180 knots CAS;



Then the question is...who determines the aircraft's maximum cruising speed? 

Is it YOU the builder, or is it Van's, the kit manufacturer?  How can you 

possibly know your aircraft's max cruising speed prior to actually flying 

it?  I guess they have to take Van's specs then...



And if so...



http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-7per.htm



75% Cruise for an RV-7 with the biggest powerplant Van's "endorses" for the 

design...200hp solo weight 75% cruise is 207 mph = 180 knots.  But guess 

what?!  It ain't gonna be INDICATING (calibrating) anywhere near that.  CAS 

will be waaaay less than 180 knots.



So even for the RV-8 which Van's specs out at 212 mph (184 knots) at solo 

weight 75% cruise, CAS won't be anywhere near 180 at 8000'.



The key is "CAS" here.  That's what the reg says.  If the DAR is gonna push 

you on it, follow the reg to the letter!!!



)_( Dan

RV-7 N714D (933 hours)

http://www.rvproject.com



---

rv7(at)b4.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:12 pm Post subject: N-Number font

On 19:09:59 2006-06-08 "Puckett, Gregory [DENTK]" <Greg.Puckett(at)united.com>

wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Specifically, the way I read it, they want the width of all

 characters to be two thirds of the height except for 1's W's and M's. I

 neglected to get somebody to make me a stencil and I need to finish

 spraying the trim and clear tomorrow. I would like to paint the reg.

 marking rather than have the stick on.


	


If nothing else, having a set of vinyl letters made first, in the same font

that you would have used for painting, would let you see how it looks

before committing to the final layout.



And it may not be first in your mind right now, but having removable

letters may make your plane a little more attractive down the road to a

potential purchaser (if someone wants to re-reg it with different numbers,

or move it to Canada, etc.)



-Rob

pbesing(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:16 pm Post subject: N-Number font

There goes some of those leave it up to the DAR

things...I've seen plenty of RV's with the small

numbers on them...I'm sure they are over 200 MPH quite

often!  My -6A had 4" temporary hardware store numbers

on it before it was painted...I'm pretty sure it went

over 200 MPH on many occasions.



Paul Besing



--- Dale Ensing <densing(at)carolina.rr.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <densing(at)carolina.rr.com>

 

 Has anyone ever run in to a problem with a DAR over

 this?

 

 

 Greg, you may want to check with your DAR. Recently

 a DAR in our area

 required an RV to put on the 12 in. letters because

 the builder said the

 plane was capable of more than 200 mph.

 Dale

 

 

 

 



 browse

 Subscriptions page,

 FAQ,

 Admin.



 

 

 

  

  

  

 

 

 

 


	




__________________________________________________

rv8ch

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:03 pm Post subject: N-Number font

Dan Checkoway wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   (iii) Marks at least 3 inches high may be displayed on an aircraft for 

 which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate under §21.191 (d), 

 §21.191 (g), or §21.191 (i) of this chapter to operate as an exhibition 

 aircraft, an amateur-built aircraft, or a light-sport aircraft when the 

 maximum cruising speed of the aircraft does not exceed 180 knots CAS;


	


There's also the issue of international flying.  Not sure if that

counts for Caribbean, Canada or Mexico.  What do you guys who cross

the borders regularly do?  Temporary 12" numbers?  Anyone had

their wrist slapped for not having the big numbers on their RV?



-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

do not archive

_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/

mstewart(at)iss.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:41 am Post subject: N-Number font

We have used electrical tape and shoe polish for the 12" requirement returning from other countries. 

I have 3" on my S8. My DAR never even mentioned the speed, nor did I bring it up bragging about the speed. You can see my 3" scripted font barely readable from 50' here:

http://www2.eaa690.org:8080/coppermine/displayimage.php?pos=-138



Coming back from the Turks, out electrical tape was flapping in the wind as the hot sun was softening the glue and the tape was fluttering off. Was funny to watch. We switched to shoe polish after that.

Enjoy,

Mike

--

aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:59 am Post subject: N-Number font

Hi All-



A person could have a lot of fun with this one!  I asked a pertinent source

about this subject and got the perfect answer.  The cruise speed of a plane

has an FAA definition.  Unfortunately I don't have either the citation at

my fingertips or the time to look it up right now, but you can go to the

main fed site and do a search for the info and get it right from the horses

mouth.  The short version is that V sub D (design diving speed), V sub NE

(never exceed speed), V sub H (max sea level speed), and V sub C (cruise

speed) are all mathematically defined and interrelated, as well as linked

to wing loading at max gross take off weight.  V sub C has a range, the

maximum end of which is defined as 0.9 x V sub H.  According to Van's, V

sub H is 192 kts for the RV-8.  192 x .9 = 173.  Therefore, the max cruise

speed for an RV-8 is 173 kts as defined by the FAA.  



Voila!



Crossing an ADIZ is another matter, of course.  We plan on 12" markings for

that reason alone.

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Greg, you may want to check with your DAR. Recently a DAR in our area

 required an RV to put on the 12 in. letters because the builder said the

 plane was capable of more than 200 mph.

 Dale

 

 
	




Glen Matejcek

aerobubba(at)earthlink.net

Greg.Puckett(at)united.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:19 am Post subject: N-Number font

Thanks for the info everyone.

 

I know everyone wants to hash out the height issue again and I'm sure I can find some DAR to disagree but, I think that issue is pretty clear as written in the regulation. Dan is right, its CAS and at 75% power the RV-8 will see nothing close to 180kts CAS. Glen's analysis should also be some good ammo.

 

The question I really needed an answer to is:

 

With respect to FAR 45.29 (c), has anyone ever had an issue if the width does not exactly match?

 



It's not like I'm using some crazy font, just a plain Swis821 LtCn BT in bold and slightly slanted but, it does not have characters that are exactly 2/3 wide as they are high and the "1" is not exactly 1/6th wide. The number "8"is exactly 2/3rd but the "N" the "G" and "P" are about as wide as they are high. 



After looking a Mike Stewarts font, I can't imagine anyone having a problem with mine but before I shoot and clear coat, I wanted to know if anyone had ever heard of an issue with the width and font of the character from their DAR? 



Thanks everyone. 



Greg 



N881GP 



  



  



  



  



  



(c) Width. Characters must be two-thirds as wide as they are high, except the number "1", which must be one-sixth as wide as it is high, and the letters "M" and "W" which may be as wide as they are high. 



(d) Thickness. Characters must be formed by solid lines one-sixth as thick as the character is high. 



(e) Spacing. The space between each character may not be less than one-fourth of the character width.

dan(at)rvproject.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:30 am Post subject: N-Number font

 	  Quote: 	
		   There's also the issue of international flying.  Not sure if that

 counts for Caribbean, Canada or Mexico.  What do you guys who cross

 the borders regularly do?  Temporary 12" numbers?  Anyone had

 their wrist slapped for not having the big numbers on their RV?


	


The requirement isn't relative to border crossing or flying to other 

countries.  The requirement has to do with whether or not you are crossing 

the ADIZ...and also depends on the regs of the countries you're visiting.



When I flew to Canada, for instance, I had just my 3" numbers.  Didn't cross 

the ADIZ.



When I fly to Mexico, I always use 12" temporary numbers (shoe polish).



 	  Quote: 	
		  From a standpoint of convenience, having 12" numbers would be a good thing. 

But I can't bring myself to put 'em on there permanently for reasons that 
	


are probably obvious to many RV pilots on this list.



do not archive

)_( Dan

RV-7 N714D

http://www.rvproject.com

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:36 am Post subject: N-Number font

Call your AB-DAR and ask him.



Bruce

www.glasair.org

 



--

mstewart(at)iss.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:38 am Post subject: N-Number font

<snip>

After looking a Mike Stewarts font, I can't imagine anyone having a

problem with mine Greg N881GP

<snip>



Its ALL IN THE DAR!

For better or worse, there are no consistent application of any rules.

After your inspection and your paperwork is done, there is nothing to

stop a ramp check from requiring you to change em. If your not in

compliance, then your not. 



And on the Vx Dy stuff I know nothing about, in the end its how YOURS

performs, not the airframe. Mine does not perform to Vans published

numbers... fortunately {smile}

Best

Mike

Do not archive

bertrv6(at)highstream.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:47 am Post subject: N-Number font

Quoting Paul Besing <pbesing(at)yahoo.com>:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 There goes some of those leave it up to the DAR

 things...I've seen plenty of RV's with the small

 numbers on them...I'm sure they are over 200 MPH quite

 often!  My -6A had 4" temporary hardware store numbers

 on it before it was painted...I'm pretty sure it went

 over 200 MPH on many occasions.



 Paul Besing




	


  Paul:  I thought, that the requirement, for 12" was only if you  fly

outside of the U.S.?

Bert

 	  Quote: 	
		   --- Dale Ensing <densing(at)carolina.rr.com> wrote:



 > 

 > <densing(at)carolina.rr.com>

 >

 > Has anyone ever run in to a problem with a DAR over

 > this?

 >

 >

 > Greg, you may want to check with your DAR. Recently

 > a DAR in our area

 > required an RV to put on the 12 in. letters because

 > the builder said the

 > plane was capable of more than 200 mph.

 > Dale

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > browse

 > Subscriptions page,

 > FAQ,

 >

 >

 > Admin.

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 __________________________________________________

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: N-Number font

bertrv6(at)highstream.net wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Quoting Paul Besing <pbesing(at)yahoo.com>:

 

 

>

>

>There goes some of those leave it up to the DAR

>things...I've seen plenty of RV's with the small

>numbers on them...I'm sure they are over 200 MPH quite

>often!  My -6A had 4" temporary hardware store numbers

>on it before it was painted...I'm pretty sure it went

>over 200 MPH on many occasions.

>

>Paul Besing

>

 

 

 

 

   Paul:  I thought, that the requirement, for 12" was only if you  fly

 outside of the U.S.?

 

 

 Bert

 


	


Nope, based on speed and the ADIZ.

Jerry

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject: N-Number font

Jerry Springer wrote



 	  Quote: 	
		  >

>   Paul:  I thought, that the requirement, for 12" was only if you  fly

> outside of the U.S.?

> Bert



 Nope, based on speed and the ADIZ.

 Jerry 


	


And where is MOST of the ADIZ???   Out of the country.  Which brings up 

the question?  Are 12" numbers required to enter the Washington ADIZ?

Linn

do not archive  .......   ADIZ off the coast!

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject: N-Number font

linn Walters wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Jerry Springer wrote

>>

>>   Paul:  I thought, that the requirement, for 12" was only if you  fly

>> outside of the U.S.?

>> Bert

> Nope, based on speed and the ADIZ.

> Jerry 

 And where is MOST of the ADIZ???   Out of the country.  Which brings up 

 the question?  Are 12" numbers required to enter the Washington ADIZ?

 Linn

 do not archive  .......   ADIZ off the coast!

I don't really consider the ADIZ around the west, south and eastern 

borders out of the country. Washinton is not an ADIZ it is a restricted 

area and you must comply with certain procedures to fly there.

You do have  your 2006 FAR/AIM right? 

Jerry

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject: N-Number font

Since when is the area around D.C. "not an ADIZ".  Seems that's what

it's been for quite a while now.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Jerry Springer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 linn Walters wrote:

> 

>

> Jerry Springer wrote

>

>>>

>>>   Paul:  I thought, that the requirement, for 12" was only if you  fly

>>> outside of the U.S.?

>>> Bert

>>

>>

>> Nope, based on speed and the ADIZ.

>> Jerry 

> And where is MOST of the ADIZ???   Out of the country.  Which brings 

> up the question?  Are 12" numbers required to enter the Washington ADIZ?

> Linn

> do not archive  .......   ADIZ off the coast!

>

 I don't really consider the ADIZ around the west, south and eastern 

 borders out of the country. Washinton is not an ADIZ it is a restricted 

 area and you must comply with certain procedures to fly there.

 You do have  your 2006 FAR/AIM right? 

 Jerry

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:07 pm Post subject: N-Number font

On 10 Jun 2006, at 17:07, linn Walters wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>



 Jerry Springer wrote



>>

>>   Paul:  I thought, that the requirement, for 12" was only if  

>> you  fly

>> outside of the U.S.?

>> Bert

>

> Nope, based on speed and the ADIZ.

> Jerry



 And where is MOST of the ADIZ???   Out of the country.


	


You don't fly through an ADIZ to come up to Canada.  Come visit us  

sometime.



Kevin Horton         RV-8 (finishing kit)

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: N-Number font

Kevin,



Flying TO Canada is easy; it's getting back through U.S. Customs that has

been an aggravation, to say the least, as both Jerry and I have experienced.

But you know that.



Terry



Do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Jerry Springer wrote



>>

>>   Paul:  I thought, that the requirement, for 12" was only if  

>> you  fly

>> outside of the U.S.?

>> Bert

>

> Nope, based on speed and the ADIZ.

> Jerry



 And where is MOST of the ADIZ???   Out of the country.


	


You don't fly through an ADIZ to come up to Canada.  Come visit us  

sometime.



Kevin Horton         RV-8 (finishing kit)

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject: N-Number font

I stand corrected, I was just using the 2006 AIM/FAR manual fir 

reference and it did not show DC area.



Tim Olson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Since when is the area around D.C. "not an ADIZ".  Seems that's what

 it's been for quite a while now.



 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 Jerry Springer wrote:



> 

>

> linn Walters wrote:

>

>> 

>>

>> Jerry Springer wrote

>>

>>>>

>>>>   Paul:  I thought, that the requirement, for 12" was only if you  

>>>> fly

>>>> outside of the U.S.?

>>>> Bert

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Nope, based on speed and the ADIZ.

>>> Jerry 

>>

>>

>>

>> And where is MOST of the ADIZ???   Out of the country.  Which brings 

>> up the question?  Are 12" numbers required to enter the Washington 

>> ADIZ?

>> Linn

>> do not archive  .......   ADIZ off the coast!

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

> I don't really consider the ADIZ around the west, south and eastern 

> borders out of the country. Washinton is not an ADIZ it is a 

> restricted area and you must comply with certain procedures to fly 

> there.

> You do have  your 2006 FAR/AIM right? 

>

> Jerry

>



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