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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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 Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:48 am Post subject: No Title |
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Frans & Ilona;
Thanks for sharing. The Alps are really beautiful – so far we have looked them only from the ground by walk, train or car. We wish you will give us some current mountain flight training – you will get from us some basics for remote flying. Coming back! Also shoreless seas are beautiful like Baltic Sea or how do you like? This one is (at) FL80. How about windmills - aren´t they like The Beasts from The Revelation?
BTW did you know that you have a nice night club in Tampere? Ilona & Villisika. Maybe you wonder what means “Villisika” ? A direct translation is “A Wildpig”. You are maybe Ilona´s very private Villisika 
Marke has started her Helicopter lessons and managed to levitate R44 instantly. They claim that´s a rare wonder.
Marke & Raimo
From: Frans Veldman (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2013 11:34 PM
To: Europa-list(at)matronics.com (Europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject:
(at)Raimo: The Alps are beautiful (at)FL115! Today we went to Croatia. Probably our last "longer" trip this year. Just wanted to share.
Frans & Ilona
--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Roland
Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE
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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:13 am Post subject: No Title |
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I took some rotary wing lessons in an R22. It was a bit like skipping over a rope, patting my head with one arm and patting my tummy with the other while winking with one eye and singing at the same time.
Oh, and the best part was that it was tearing $100 bills and tossing them out of the window while I was doing it.
Kudos to Marke !!
do not archive
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 5:01 AM, Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)> wrote:
[quote] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)>
Congrats to Marke for her superb R 44 handling skills - what I have heard is, that the R 44 handling is not too easy.
Best wishes
Roland
[b]
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Rocketman
Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 87
Location: USA, Earth
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:39 am Post subject: No Title |
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New community college opened in our city, offers rotory wing lessons as
one of their curriculum. One kid was complaining about the $30k cost,
per semester (includes everything - 4 semesters required). I told him
he was luck to be able to get his ticket that cheap. He gave me a funny
look, then I told him what the typical cost was... 
Rman
On 9/26/2013 10:12 AM, Paul McAllister wrote:
| Quote: | I took some rotary wing lessons in an R22. It was a bit like skipping
over a rope, patting my head with one arm and patting my tummy with the
other while winking with one eye and singing at the same time.
Oh, and the best part was that it was tearing $100 bills and tossing
them out of the window while I was doing it.
Kudos to Marke !!
do not archive
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 5:01 AM, Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de
<mailto:schmidtroland(at)web.de>> wrote:
<mailto:schmidtroland(at)web.de>>
Congrats to Marke for her superb R 44 handling skills - what I have
heard is, that the R 44 handling is not too easy.
Best wishes
Roland
*
*
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:45 am Post subject: No Title |
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Hi Roland,
whats a minimum altitude which make sense when
overflying The Alps?
We feel comfortable to the FL 80 and have tested
our poor non-turbo to the FL 170 (awful). She was
still bravely climbing 100 ft/minute but I was
finished.
It is well flyable say to the FL 100-120 but I
hate it is not so stable platform there any more.
*******
OK, Roland, maybe no membership for us in the High
Alt Club (HAC) but how is your membership in Mile
High Club (MHC) ? I have to say we confirmed our
old but trusty membership couple of times in the
back cabin in our very privat AN-2 during the
summers 2012 and 2013. Ask me nice maybe we can
rent it for you but you have to find your company
by yourself, because my wife will be sitting in
the cockpit with me then (it is mandatory today to
have a two people crew during AN-2 operations).
Can you Roland handle this ?
*******
You are right - I managed to keep it (R44) in
control say 10 to 20 seconds until it started to
oscillate wildly. Schweitzer three seater was a
lot easier even to me, but Rotorway Exec is a real
nightmare - like sitting on the hard boiled egg -
max 3 seconds and upsidedown it went. EC-135 is
lovely but its pure and full anhuman computer
stabilized.
Marke sends you warm wishes - me too!
See you...
Raimo
OH-XRT 912S non-turbo
(how about
-----Alkuperinen viesti-----
From: Roland
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 1:01 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: No Title
<schmidtroland(at)web.de>
"We wish you will give us some current mountain
flight training"
Sorry Raimo, no membership in the high altitude
club for non turbos
Congrats to Marke for her superb R 44 handling
skills - what I have heard is, that the R 44
handling is not too easy.
Best wishes
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS Trigear 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=409255#409255
browse
Un/Subscription,
FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Forums!
List Admin.
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:17 am Post subject: No Title |
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Thanks Paul!
I felt it was almost like reading Reader´s Digests...but not so boring and this time even happily completely free (normally here 750 euros /hour = 1014 US $ /hour). Raimo´s hands were shaking but fortunately he was sitting on the back seat with kids. Look how fun they had!
What´s “Kudos” ?
Marke
From: Paul McAllister (paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 6:12 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: No Title
I took some rotary wing lessons in an R22. It was a bit like skipping over a rope, patting my head with one arm and patting my tummy with the other while winking with one eye and singing at the same time.
Oh, and the best part was that it was tearing $100 bills and tossing them out of the window while I was doing it.
Kudos to Marke !!
do not archive
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 5:01 AM, Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)>
Congrats to Marke for her superb R 44 handling skills - what I have heard is, that the R 44 handling is not too easy.
Best wishes
Roland
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:01 am Post subject: No Title |
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Hi! Marke! Really well done, proud of you, but for me I’m never happy being in a vehicle whose “Wings” go faster than the “Vehicle”!
Kudos =Glory,> Fame,> Renown >
Love to you all.
Bob H XXX G-PTAG
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
Sent: 26 September 2013 17:17
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com; Raimo Toivio
Subject: Re: Re: No Title
Thanks Paul!
I felt it was almost like reading Reader´s Digests...but not so boring and this time even happily completely free (normally here 750 euros /hour = 1014 US $ /hour). Raimo´s hands were shaking but fortunately he was sitting on the back seat with kids. Look how fun they had!
What´s “Kudos” ?
Marke
From: Paul McAllister (paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 6:12 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: No Title
I took some rotary wing lessons in an R22. It was a bit like skipping over a rope, patting my head with one arm and patting my tummy with the other while winking with one eye and singing at the same time.
Oh, and the best part was that it was tearing $100 bills and tossing them out of the window while I was doing it.
Kudos to Marke !!
do not archive
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 5:01 AM, Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)> wrote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)>
Congrats to Marke for her superb R 44 handling skills - what I have heard is, that the R 44 handling is not too easy.
Best wishes
Roland
[quote] href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c[b]
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Roland
Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: No Title |
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Moin Raimo!
I'm sure that the answer to your question, what the minimum safe altitude to cross the Alps is, should be given from someone, who has done that already (e.g. Frans Feldmann) If you go straight over the Mt Blanc Massive (there is normally no need to do that), your plane should be capable for well over 17.000 ft. When you want to travel to Italy, you could choose the Brenner route and 7.000 ft would be sufficient. Care must be taken concerning the weather all the time when flying in the Alps (more than normal) because you have less options and it can change rapidly. So far my theoretical knowledge.
Regarding performance at altitude I went up to FL 120 with ease on my way back from AERO fare in Friedrichshafen to my homebase EDLE. The aircraft (and engine) were quite happy up there.
The MHC, yes, definetely something I would like to become a member of. I can bring my wife as company . Let's talk about that on a meeting at Siljan Airpark with a beer.... what was it - taxiway 9 Y?
Hope to see you and Marke at Texel next year (the latest)!
Roland
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frans(at)privatepilots.nl
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:56 pm Post subject: No Title |
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Hi Raimo Toivio,
| Quote: | whats a minimum altitude which make sense when overflying The Alps?
|
You can fly IN the Alps, and you can fly OVER the Alps. Personally,
generally I fly over the Alps, except when I need to land in a field
inside the Alps. Flying between the mountains instead of over them bring
all sorts of risks, especially if you are unfamiliar with the area. Even
when flying between the mountains, I will do that only if there are no
clouds above and I always have the ability to climb out of nasty
turbulence, upsloping valleys, or a traffic jam (I had one time had the
pleasure of almost getting into a swarm of a dozen or so motorized hang
gliders that suddenly appeared around the corner of some mountain peak.)
See and avoid is a whole new game between the mountains, and radar
doesn't get there so ATC is unable to advice, and the most traffic warn
devices are transponder based but transponders remain silent when they
are not triggered by radar. Local radio is useless as well as most local
traffic tends to communicate in some sort of crypto-language instead of
plain English. We've just installed Flarm because that is the only thing
that offers some protection.
About the altitude required, that depends a lot of the area you are
crossing. For the area where Ilona's parents live you can get away with
FL100, but for a straight line from Croatia to South Germany we had to
climb to FL115 but even then we had to zig-zag here and there to miss
the tallest mountain peaks.
One warning here: if there is some wind, there are likely mountain
waves. With the turbo it is generally possible to outclimb down washing
area's (except when there is more than just some gently wind, it can
drag you down with 1000ft per minute and in severe cases it can even
suck down an airliner.) and of course it can also push you up. Have been
flying there once with a C172 with the power at idle and quite a nose
down attitude but still climbing with over 1000ft/minute. Not funny if
you are passing FL120 in a hurry without oxygen on board.
That was when I didn't had a clue about how mountain waves flow, with
later insight I had easily got out of it if I just changed the heading
90 degrees. Some basic understanding how (invisable) mountain waves flow
is really helpful.
Always be prepared to turn around quickly if something undesirable
happens (and one more reason to be above a valley rather than in it).
There are interesting theories on the internet about the best way to
turn around in a narrow valley (including stall turns etc) but the best
way is to avoid getting into a situation where this is your only way
out. Approach ridges always at an angle and never fly straight to them,
this to make it easier to turn away if you are sucked down just before
crossing (or hitting) the ridge.
Anyway, mountain flying is a bit more risky than flying above a flat
country with many pastures, but being aware of all the dangers keeps you
sharp and helps to avoid nasty situations. I'm always looking for
emergency landing spots and even adapt my routing to stay within range,
but I have to admit that sometimes there isn't any suitable spot and if
the engine dies you have a not so nice situation. I'm always relieved
when I approach the next valley and it happens to be one with green
pastures rather than one with just a rocky river at the bottom.
Our Alps crossings to Croatia were uneventful, despite quite a nice wind
that sent us with over 160 knots GS to the other side but didn't cause
any turbulence or other nasty effects at all.
Seen the picture I sent you about Ilona and the wild pig?
Frans
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