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trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
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 Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:48 am Post subject: Charging the Aux Battery |
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Bob and all
This is probably a dumb question but I will make it anyway.
In a Dual battery electric system architecture, like Z-14 for example, the Aux Battery will not be charging in flight unless the aux batt. Switch is flipped On (thus closing the Aux Batt contactor), right?
Carlos
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:52 pm Post subject: Charging the Aux Battery |
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At 01:46 PM 9/29/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Bob and all
This is probably a dumb question but I will make it anyway.
In a Dual battery electric system architecture, like Z-14 for
example, the Aux Battery will not be charging in flight unless the
aux batt. Switch is flipped On (thus closing the Aux Batt contactor), right?
Carlos
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Z-14 is dual battery/dual alternator, split-bus
system. The aux battery is maintained by its
dedicated alternator.
In Z-14, normal ops are conducted with everything
ON except the cross-feed contactor.
On other dual battery systems with only one alternator
and perhaps an aux alternator, then both battery
contactors are closed during normal operations to
be charged in parallel.
Bob . . .
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trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
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| Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:20 am Post subject: Charging the Aux Battery |
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Thanks Bob
So you confirm that on Dual battery, One main Alternator and an Aux
alternator, with no cross-feed contactor, the Aux battery contactor must be
closed during normal operations otherwise the Aux Battery will not be
charged.
Then, what's the advantage of having 2 batteries?
Only to have more electron juice available?
Carlos
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Enviada: 30 de setembro de 2013 01:51
Para: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: Re: Charging the Aux Battery
--> <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
At 01:46 PM 9/29/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: |
--> <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Bob and all
This is probably a dumb question but I will make it anyway.
In a Dual battery electric system architecture, like Z-14 for example,
the Aux Battery will not be charging in flight unless the aux batt.
Switch is flipped On (thus closing the Aux Batt contactor), right?
Carlos
|
Z-14 is dual battery/dual alternator, split-bus
system. The aux battery is maintained by its
dedicated alternator.
In Z-14, normal ops are conducted with everything
ON except the cross-feed contactor.
On other dual battery systems with only one alternator
and perhaps an aux alternator, then both battery
contactors are closed during normal operations to
be charged in parallel.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:34 am Post subject: Charging the Aux Battery |
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At 09:22 AM 9/30/2013, you wrote:
Thanks Bob
So you confirm that on Dual battery, One main Alternator and an Aux
alternator, with no cross-feed contactor, the Aux battery contactor must be
closed during normal operations otherwise the Aux Battery will not be
charged.
Then, what's the advantage of having 2 batteries?
Only to have more electron juice available?
Essentially, yes . . . but capable of being
partitioned into separate tasks should the
alternator fail.
During alternator outage, an Aux battery might
be assigned the task of supporting an electrically
dependent engine while the main battery would
perhaps support an e-bus.
This isn't just about storing 'more juice' . . .
it's about selecting, crafting and operating
an architecture that offers the most favorable
failure modes effects analysis. FMEA is a
simple exercised of looking at EVERY part
of your electrical system and asking the
questions that drive your decisions toward
a more FAILURE TOLERANT design.
I'll suggest you review these two pieces
found on our website . . .
http://tinyurl.com/kzfgtpt
http://tinyurl.com/lpvth8d
The answer to your question about dual batteries
is broader than to explain their function.
The question you need to answer first is
"why would I think of having two batteries
and how would they participate in a aerial dance
contest where one or more of the contestants are
throwing in the towel."
This isn't about seeing the most reliable parts . . .
it's about building the most reliable SYSTEM
wherein absolute reliability of parts doesn't
drive risk. It is much less expensive to design
for failure tolerance than to buy only
components with established reliability
studies.
My personal design goal for aircraft is to
deprive any single failure of forcing me
to break a sweat in the cockpit. Given
a set of hardware limits and mission goals
for the airplane, then the pieces need to
be assembled in such a way as to minimize
risk.
Many of our brothers add 'backup batteries'
as a salve for their apprehensions about
lost of some really handy gadget on the
panel . . . without consideration of the
BIG PICTURE. My own apprehensions are best assuaged
by the notion that even if my airplane's
capabilities degrade to little better than
a J-3, as long as the wings stay on, the
engine keeps running and the flight controls
are hooked up, I have a well understood
opportunity to complete the flight comfortably.
I've flown rented A-36 Bonanzas with LOTS of
goodies on the panel without the slightest
concern about the maintenance records for any
particular appliance. This is because I fly
with these things in my flight bag.
http://tinyurl.com/d5mrjgh
With fresh batteries installed before departure
http://tinyurl.com/kjuhl67
Whether the salve for your apprehensions includes
a second battery is a decision you need to
answer by asking a LOT of other questions with
simple answers that illustrate predictable consequences.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:33 am Post subject: Charging the Aux Battery |
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<SNIP>
Whether the salve for your apprehensions includes
a second battery is a decision you need to
answer by asking a LOT of other questions with
simple answers that illustrate predictable consequences.
P.S. Carlos, was your question purely academic or are
you considering a two-battery system? If you care
to share your musings here on the List, we can help
you sort the bits and pieces.
Bob . . .
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trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:39 am Post subject: Charging the Aux Battery |
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Bob
Thank you for the dissertation about the theme I had proposed.
I confess that I still didn't read it thoroughly, so I will have to digest
it conveniently.
Meanwhile, I can confirm that my question was not academic, I am building an
RV-10 and did consider the Dual battery, One main Alternator - one Aux
alternator system.
So far, I am considering a variation of the Z-14 architecture, but still
didn't reach the "end of the line" in what regards the final schematic, so
would appreciate all suggestions.
Regards
Carlos
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Enviada: 1 de outubro de 2013 16:32
Para: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Charging the Aux Battery
--> <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
<SNIP>
Whether the salve for your apprehensions includes
a second battery is a decision you need to
answer by asking a LOT of other questions with
simple answers that illustrate predictable consequences.
P.S. Carlos, was your question purely academic or are
you considering a two-battery system? If you care
to share your musings here on the List, we can help
you sort the bits and pieces.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:20 pm Post subject: Charging the Aux Battery |
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At 11:41 AM 10/1/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: |
<trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>
Bob
Thank you for the dissertation about the theme I had proposed.
I confess that I still didn't read it thoroughly, so I will have to digest
it conveniently.
Meanwhile, I can confirm that my question was not academic, I am building an
RV-10 and did consider the Dual battery, One main Alternator - one Aux
alternator system.
So far, I am considering a variation of the Z-14 architecture, but still
didn't reach the "end of the line" in what regards the final schematic, so
would appreciate all suggestions.
Regards
Carlos
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Understand. I presume your airplane will
be Lycoming powered and has a accessory
pad that will NOT be occupied with a vacuum
pump.
Do you plan to fly a significant portion of
your use under instrument flight rules, over
mountainous terrain or at night?
Do you plan to have a gps aided wing-leveler
or better?
Engine electrically dependent in any way?
You need to compile a list of every currently
anticipated electro-whizzy. If you have actual
running current for each device, record that value
along. Peak currents too even if intermittent.
Do any of these accessories feature built in
back up batteries and/or connections brought
out for dual power sourcing?
How do you rate yourself for competence/confidence
that under total loss of panel instrumentation,
you could get to where you originally intended to
go with flight bag back-ups?
Since this is a 4-seated airplane, your approach
toward risk mitigation is understandably more
conservative. It's not necessary that your self-
assessments be shared with the List but do put
some thought into the skill set you plan to have
in your bag of tricks by the time you're ready
to launch with all the seats occupied.
Far too many pilots have bought into the notion
that performance translates directly into risk
mitigation . . . an idea that is disproved with
some frequency. I've read accident reports where
pilots let their personal standards for skill
relax when the airplane they bought had all the
bells and whistles. In fact, they might have lived
to tell their own dark-n-stormy night story over
a suds had their personal skill sets been honed
a bit better.
If this were MY airplane, I'd be trading off
cost of ownership and practical utility of
every installed accessory while maintaining
the notion that under the worst case conditions,
I might have to dig the hand held radios out
of the flight bag. A very tiny risk to be sure
but it's your personal confidence level for making
plan-C . . . D or whatever save your buns.
Hence the real driver for choosing how much stuff
you hang on the panel has more to do with how
well you think you can do without it. If your
confidence level is low, then a plan-b for loss
of any particular item gets elevated in priority.
THESE mental exercises will drive how many
alternators, batteries, busses and kilobux worth
of hardware will fly with you every flight whether
routinely useful or not. So mission profiles,
skill sets, FMEA and load analysis is where the
planning starts.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:11 am Post subject: Charging the Aux Battery |
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At 01:46 PM 9/29/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Bob and all
This is probably a dumb question but I will make it anyway.
In a Dual battery electric system architecture, like Z-14 for
example, the Aux Battery will not be charging in flight unless the
aux batt. Switch is flipped On (thus closing the Aux Batt contactor), right?
|
Carlos,
Now that the edges of the sandbox have
been discovered, how do you envision that
a second battery would be integrated into
a V-P system and how would it fit into
your plans for dealing with failure?
Are you considering a second alternator
of ANY size on the vacuum pump pad?
As I recall, V-P attends to second alternator
and/or battery . . . does their installation
literature speak to these options?
Bob . . .
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trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:00 am Post subject: Charging the Aux Battery |
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Please see answers below
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Enviada: 4 de outubro de 2013 16:11
Para: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: Re: Charging the Aux Battery
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
--> <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
At 01:46 PM 9/29/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo
--> <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>
Bob and all
This is probably a dumb question but I will make it anyway.
In a Dual battery electric system architecture, like Z-14 for example,
the Aux Battery will not be charging in flight unless the aux batt.
Switch is flipped On (thus closing the Aux Batt contactor), right?
|
Carlos,
Now that the edges of the sandbox have
been discovered, how do you envision that
a second battery would be integrated into
a V-P system and how would it fit into
your plans for dealing with failure?
There are several objectives I am trying to reach with the decision of including a second battery:
(I mean objectives directly related with electric features, because there are the side consequences in weight – bad for the Total weight of the bird, but perhaps good for the W & B calculations when travelling alone…)
<![if !supportLists]>- <![endif]>Spare juice for the starter cranking power
<![if !supportLists]>- <![endif]>Back-up power for the VP-X box and features
<![if !supportLists]>- <![endif]>Back-up power for the EFIS and radio
<![if !supportLists]>- <![endif]>Back-up power for the fuel pump
<![if !supportLists]>- <![endif]>
Are you considering a second alternator
of ANY size on the vacuum pump pad?
I am considering an SD-8 or an SD-20, but I am not sure it will be overkill to have 2 batteries and 2 alternators (even considering the big bunch of electron consumers aboard the modern OBAM aircraft…)
As I recall, V-P attends to second alternator
and/or battery . . . does their installation
literature speak to these options?
Yes it does. I am at my job place right now, and the manual is at home, but I will try to find it online and copy paste the competent pages
Regards
Carlos
[quote][b]
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