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carlossa52(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:14 pm Post subject: a tip

I have noticed - through other builders comments, but also through my own experience - that using clecoes to keep parts together sometimes does not quite work.

  

The parts do remain attached, not doubt, but they can be slightly shifted from the original position when they were drilled.

Here's why, in case you don't know:



The rivet whole is slightly larger than the rivet, and a cleco, having an irregular shape, has plenty of room to move in a rivet hole.

  

For instance an A5 Avex rivet has a diameter between 0.140" and 0.155" (the rivet has "fins", therefore the diameter varies).



A solid rivet diameter is 0.155"



The corresponding drill bit is 0.160".

  

A black cleco is 0.149" at its widest point - but it is not round.



(Note: these are measurements I took from Items I have. You may find slightly different measurements.)



In longer parts (more than a foot or two) or assemblies of more than two parts, I find that if parts are not perfectly aligned, it's hard to insert the rivets. And, worse, parts will be warped or difficult to match as I proceed with construction.

  



So, instead of simply trusting the clecoes, I started adding spent drill bits here and there (a solid rivet is better than a cleco, but not as good as a spent drill bit).

I eventually started cutting drill bits and grinding one end to make it easier to insert them. 

  

(The grinding process consists of putting the drill bit in a drill or drill press and grinding it with a dremel tool.).



The opposite end is covered with masking tape - see attached photo.

I have a bunch of these, A4 and A5, and use them frequently. 

  



Hopefully this can be useful to someone.

Blue skies



Carlos

CH601-HD, plans



(CH650 firewall and canopy)

http://www.zenith.aero/profile/CarlosSa

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psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:32 pm Post subject: a tip

Carlos,



I accept your numbers, but I think you are worrying a little bit too 

much about perfection.



Clecos do line up holes pretty well because the back side of the "head" 

is indeed round.  This grabs the entire hole on the opposite side of the 

main clamp body.  Well . . . it misses the area where the crack appears 

between the fingers, but it does a good job of clamping the sheet metal 

in place.



The more Clecos you use, the more aligned the pieces will be.  I like 

starting a rivet line with Clecos in every other hole and continue 

working on this line by swapping the Cleco points and empty holes as the 

parts are repeatedly drilled to higher and higher sizes.  I usually have 

not had any problem getting the holes aligned for final riveting after 

deburring.  In those cases where I have difficulty inserting the rivet, 

I just run the final dril through the hole again.  This may mean the 

holes in all the riveted pieces are not precisely the same size but I 

don't think this matters.  The primary gripping is done by the two heads 

of the final rivet.



It is important to do a good job on your construction, but keep in mind 

you are building a relatively low performance airplane rather than a 

space shuttle.



Good luck,



Paul

Camas, WA

Zodiac XL, in phase II

On 10/2/2013 5:13 PM, Carlos Sa wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have noticed - through other builders comments, but also through my 

 own experience - that using clecoes to keep parts together sometimes 

 does not quite work.

 The parts do remain attached, not doubt, but they can be slightly 

 shifted from the original position when they were drilled.



 Here's why, in case you don't know:

 The rivet whole is slightly larger than the rivet, and a cleco, having 

 an irregular shape, has plenty of room to move in a rivet hole.

 For instance an A5 Avex rivet has a diameter between 0.140" and 0.155" 

 (the rivet has "fins", therefore the diameter varies).

 A solid rivet diameter is 0.155"

 The corresponding drill bit is 0.160".

 A black cleco is 0.149" at its widest point - but it is not round.

 (Note: these are measurements I took from Items I have. You may find 

 slightly different measurements.)



 In longer parts (more than a foot or two) or assemblies of more than 

 two parts, I find that if parts are not perfectly aligned, it's hard 

 to insert the rivets. And, worse, parts will be warped or difficult to 

 match as I proceed with construction.



 So, instead of simply trusting the clecoes, I started adding spent 

 drill bits here and there (a solid rivet is better than a cleco, but 

 not as good as a spent drill bit).



 I eventually started cutting drill bits and grinding one end to make 

 it easier to insert them.

 (The grinding process consists of putting the drill bit in a drill or 

 drill press and grinding it with a dremel tool.).

 The opposite end is covered with masking tape - see attached photo.



 I have a bunch of these, A4 and A5, and use them frequently.



 Hopefully this can be useful to someone.



 Blue skies



 Carlos

 CH601-HD, plans

 (CH650 firewall and canopy)

 http://www.zenith.aero/profile/CarlosSa

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afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:25 pm Post subject: a tip

Carlos you have way to much time on your hands... don't over think it it's just an airplane not the space shuttle.

  

  

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afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:26 pm Post subject: a tip

OMG I wrote the same thing and then read your message now that's funny right there I don't care who you are........

  

  

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BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:14 pm Post subject: a tip

Carlos:

 Good write up.  But there is a trick!

On long parts and especially parts that have a curve to them...

 Start in the CENTER and alternately work your way to the ends.

This goes for BOTH inserting the CLECOE'S.

 The removal as you insert the rivets and...

The insertion and setting of the rivets.

 AND!  You know those CLECOE CLAMPS?

There are great for clamping the ends of the mating parts.  

 Both when drilling and inserting CLECOE'S.

Barry



 



On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Carlos Sa <carlossa52(at)gmail.com (carlossa52(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] I have noticed - through other builders comments, but also through my own experience - that using clecoes to keep parts together sometimes does not quite work.

   

The parts do remain attached, not doubt, but they can be slightly shifted from the original position when they were drilled.

Here's why, in case you don't know:



The rivet whole is slightly larger than the rivet, and a cleco, having an irregular shape, has plenty of room to move in a rivet hole.

   

For instance an A5 Avex rivet has a diameter between 0.140" and 0.155" (the rivet has "fins", therefore the diameter varies).



A solid rivet diameter is 0.155"



The corresponding drill bit is 0.160".

   

A black cleco is 0.149" at its widest point - but it is not round.



(Note: these are measurements I took from Items I have. You may find slightly different measurements.)



In longer parts (more than a foot or two) or assemblies of more than two parts, I find that if parts are not perfectly aligned, it's hard to insert the rivets. And, worse, parts will be warped or difficult to match as I proceed with construction.

   



So, instead of simply trusting the clecoes, I started adding spent drill bits here and there (a solid rivet is better than a cleco, but not as good as a spent drill bit).

I eventually started cutting drill bits and grinding one end to make it easier to insert them. 

   

(The grinding process consists of putting the drill bit in a drill or drill press and grinding it with a dremel tool.).



The opposite end is covered with masking tape - see attached photo.

I have a bunch of these, A4 and A5, and use them frequently. 

   



Hopefully this can be useful to someone.

Blue skies



Carlos

CH601-HD, plans



(CH650 firewall and canopy)

http://www.zenith.aero/profile/CarlosSa

   

 [b]

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paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:58 pm Post subject: a tip

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Agreed. Aside from the philosophical "thingy" (that's Socratic talk) of  making the perfect the enemy of the good, we can quote Chris, who said, "You're  making a tractor, not an F-16". I've found the design to be very forgiving of  human error...

  

 Paul R

 [quote]   ---

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carlossa52(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:10 pm Post subject: a tip

Thanks all for the comments



Having been around the Matronics lists for more than a few years, I'm fully aware that I am not building a space shuttle.

   

So much so that I have returned the silica bricks (except a few that I kept to repair the fireplace) and cancelled the solid fuel boosters order.

Seriously: what I described is quite simple and does not add to the workload.

   

On the contrary, I strongly believe that it saves time by avoiding glitches and associated head-scratching. I have used this process in the wings and tail feathers (all done) and fuse (past "boat stage").

   

Happy building



Carlos



[quote]   

On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Carlos Sa <carlossa52(at)gmail.com (carlossa52(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		      I have noticed - through other builders comments, but also through my own experience - that using clecoes to keep parts together sometimes does not quite work.

      

The parts do remain attached, not doubt, but they can be slightly shifted from the original position when they were drilled.

Here's why, in case you don't know:



The rivet whole is slightly larger than the rivet, and a cleco, having an irregular shape, has plenty of room to move in a rivet hole.

      

For instance an A5 Avex rivet has a diameter between 0.140" and 0.155" (the rivet has "fins", therefore the diameter varies).



A solid rivet diameter is 0.155"



The corresponding drill bit is 0.160".

      

A black cleco is 0.149" at its widest point - but it is not round.



(Note: these are measurements I took from Items I have. You may find slightly different measurements.)



In longer parts (more than a foot or two) or assemblies of more than two parts, I find that if parts are not perfectly aligned, it's hard to insert the rivets. And, worse, parts will be warped or difficult to match as I proceed with construction.

      



So, instead of simply trusting the clecoes, I started adding spent drill bits here and there (a solid rivet is better than a cleco, but not as good as a spent drill bit).

I eventually started cutting drill bits and grinding one end to make it easier to insert them. 

      

(The grinding process consists of putting the drill bit in a drill or drill press and grinding it with a dremel tool.).



The opposite end is covered with masking tape - see attached photo.

I have a bunch of these, A4 and A5, and use them frequently. 

      



Hopefully this can be useful to someone.

Blue skies



Carlos

CH601-HD, plans



(CH650 firewall and canopy)

http://www.zenith.aero/profile/CarlosSa

  

	




[b]

- The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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entecrj(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:39 pm Post subject: a tip

Carlos:

  

 Donâ€™t let anyone discourage you from trying to achieve perfection when  building anything.

 When you are finished you donâ€™t have to explain any misfits, wrinkles or  misalignments.

  

 Russell Johnson

 601-HDS (with misfits, wrinkles & misalignments)

    

  From: Carlos Sa (carlossa52(at)gmail.com) 

 Sent: Friday, October 04, 2013 5:09 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: a tip

  



  Thanks all for the comments

  

 Having been around the Matronics lists for more than a  few years, I'm fully aware that I am not building a space shuttle.



 So much so that I have returned the silica bricks (except  a few that I kept to repair the fireplace) and cancelled the solid fuel boosters  order.

 Seriously: what I described is quite simple and does not  add to the workload.



 On the contrary, I strongly believe that it saves time by  avoiding glitches and associated head-scratching. I have used this process in  the wings and tail feathers (all done) and fuse (past "boat  stage").



Happy building



 Carlos



  

   [quote]       

   On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Carlos Sa <carlossa52(at)gmail.com (carlossa52(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		                                                                             I have noticed - through other builders comments, but also through my      own experience - that using clecoes to keep parts together sometimes does      not quite work.



The parts do remain attached, not doubt, but they      can be slightly shifted from the original position when they were      drilled.

     Here's why, in case you don't know:



The rivet whole is      slightly larger than the rivet, and a cleco, having an irregular shape, has      plenty of room to move in a rivet hole.



For instance an A5 Avex      rivet has a diameter between 0.140" and 0.155" (the rivet has "fins",      therefore the diameter varies).



     A solid rivet diameter is 0.155"



The corresponding drill bit      is 0.160".



A black cleco is 0.149" at its widest point - but it is      not round.



     (Note: these are measurements I took from Items I have. You may find      slightly different measurements.)



      

In longer parts (more than a foot or two) or assemblies of      more than two parts, I find that if parts are not perfectly aligned, it's      hard to insert the rivets. And, worse, parts will be warped or difficult to      match as I proceed with construction.

So, instead of simply      trusting the clecoes, I started adding spent drill bits here and there (a      solid rivet is better than a cleco, but not as good as a spent drill      bit).

I eventually started cutting drill bits and grinding one      end to make it easier to insert them. 



(The grinding process      consists of putting the drill bit in a drill or drill press and grinding it      with a dremel tool.).



The opposite end is covered with masking tape      - see attached photo.

I have a bunch of these, A4 and A5, and      use them frequently. 

Hopefully this can be useful to      someone.

Blue skies



Carlos

CH601-HD,      plans



(CH650 firewall and canopy)

http://www.zenith.aero/profile/CarlosSa



	








href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

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[b]

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paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:26 am Post subject: a tip

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Boosters, huh?  hhhmmmm....40 inches between gear leg attachments,  pretty close to the CG, AN3 bolts,......Hey Carlos, you still got those  boosters?

 [quote]   ---

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