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rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:11 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

As several already are aware, I had some fuel flow issues on my first flight.  At the time, in the air, I wasn’t quite sure what the issue may have been.  It was initially looking like a blocked fuel line.  The symptom was that the fuel pressure dropped significantly, but came back up with the electric fuel pump turned on and switching the tanks.  I promptly landed and started looking for the root cause.

 

<![if !supportLists]>1.       <![endif]>The left and right tank fuel flow (measured at the firewall, forward of the filter and pump) was 58 gallons/hour.  Rules out a blockage aft of the firewall.

<![if !supportLists]>2.       <![endif]>The fuel vents are not obstructed

 

I ran the engine in a static test.   Was getting about 20psi on the engine fuel pump and about 26psi with the electric fuel pump enabled.  Since this is all within specifications, this is the worst of all the scenarios.  No root cause and everything seems to be working as designed.

 

This morning I flew for about an hour on flight #2.

 

When I turned off the electric fuel pump, fuel pressure started to immediately drop.  I let it drop to about 10psi before I re-engaged the electric fuel pump.  With the electric fuel pump running, I was getting 26psi.  I repeated this scenario multiple times on both fuel tanks during the flight.  Results were pretty consistent.

 

It’s looking like I may  have a bad fuel pump on this 1 SNEW YIO-540-D4A5.  I plan on giving Lycoming a call in the morning.

 

My questions is there any other scenarios that I’m overlooking that may yield similar symptoms?

 

Thanks,

 

bob

 

 

  [quote][b]

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:46 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

With the info presented I think you're       spot on.  I agree with the call to Lycoming .... they should ship       you a new pump.  Up to you to do the R&R which has always been       a PITA for me.  My best guess is that there is some small piece of       trash (don't know what else to call it) hung up in one of the       valves.

       Linn

       On 10/20/2013 4:47 PM, Bob Leffler wrote:

     

     [quote]                       <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->                

As several already are aware, I had some           fuel flow issues on my first flight.  At the time, in the air,           I wasn’t quite sure what the issue may have been.  It was           initially looking like a blocked fuel line.  The symptom was           that the fuel pressure dropped significantly, but came back up           with the electric fuel pump turned on and switching the           tanks.  I promptly landed and started looking for the root           cause.         

          

1.       The           left and right tank fuel flow (measured at the firewall,           forward of the filter and pump) was 58 gallons/hour.  Rules           out a blockage aft of the firewall.         

2.       The           fuel vents are not obstructed         

          

I ran the engine in a static test.   Was           getting about 20psi on the engine fuel pump and about 26psi           with the electric fuel pump enabled.  Since this is all within           specifications, this is the worst of all the scenarios.  No           root cause and everything seems to be working as designed.         

          

This morning I flew for about an hour on           flight #2.         

          

When I turned off the electric fuel pump,           fuel pressure started to immediately drop.  I let it drop to           about 10psi before I re-engaged the electric fuel pump.  With           the electric fuel pump running, I was getting 26psi.  I           repeated this scenario multiple times on both fuel tanks           during the flight.  Results were pretty consistent.         

          

It’s looking like I may  have a bad fuel           pump on this 1 SNEW YIO-540-D4A5.  I plan on giving Lycoming a           call in the morning.         

          

My questions is there any other scenarios           that I’m overlooking that may yield similar symptoms?         

          

Thanks,         

          

bob         

          

        

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
       

No virus         found in this message.

         Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

         10/20/13     [b]

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:37 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

You could download your engine data from your EFIS, and look at both 

fuel pressure and fuel flow simultaneously. I don't think there is an 

issue with your fuel pressure sensor, but it would be good to see what 

was happening on fuel flow at the same time pressure was dropping. The 

mechanical pump is supposed to be able to handle up to -2 psi input, i.e 

overcoming an uphill flow on the input side.

There is one other possibility. You could have a leak between the 

electric pump and the mechanical pump. If that is the case, the 

mechanical pump sucks air through the leak, which reduces the pressure 

to the engine, while the electric pump will over come this.

Rule out the chance of an air leak between boost pump and mechanical 

before assuming that mechanical pump is bad.



On 10/20/2013 2:46 PM, Linn Walters wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   With the info presented I think you're spot on. I agree with the call 

 to Lycoming .... they should ship you a new pump. Up to you to do the 

 R&R which has always been a PITA for me. My best guess is that there 

 is some small piece of trash (don't know what else to call it) hung up 

 in one of the valves.

 Linn

 On 10/20/2013 4:47 PM, Bob Leffler wrote:

>

> As several already are aware, I had some fuel flow issues on my first 

> flight. At the time, in the air, I wasn’t quite sure what the issue 

> may have been. It was initially looking like a blocked fuel line. The 

> symptom was that the fuel pressure dropped significantly, but came 

> back up with the electric fuel pump turned on and switching the 

> tanks. I promptly landed and started looking for the root cause.

>

> 1.The left and right tank fuel flow (measured at the firewall, 

> forward of the filter and pump) was 58 gallons/hour. Rules out a 

> blockage aft of the firewall.

>

> 2.The fuel vents are not obstructed

>

> I ran the engine in a static test. Was getting about 20psi on the 

> engine fuel pump and about 26psi with the electric fuel pump enabled. 

> Since this is all within specifications, this is the worst of all the 

> scenarios. No root cause and everything seems to be working as designed.

>

> This morning I flew for about an hour on flight #2.

>

> When I turned off the electric fuel pump, fuel pressure started to 

> immediately drop. I let it drop to about 10psi before I re-engaged 

> the electric fuel pump. With the electric fuel pump running, I was 

> getting 26psi. I repeated this scenario multiple times on both fuel 

> tanks during the flight. Results were pretty consistent.

>

> It’s looking like I may have a bad fuel pump on this 1 SNEW 

> YIO-540-D4A5. I plan on giving Lycoming a call in the morning.

>

> My questions is there any other scenarios that I’m overlooking that 

> may yield similar symptoms?

>

> Thanks,

>

> bob

>

> *

> *

>

> No virus found in this message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> 10/20/13

>



 *

 *

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:05 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

Here’s the Fuel Flow and Fuel Pressure overlaid.  The dips are consistent when I turned off the electric fuel pump.  An interesting anomaly is that the fuel pressure is higher during taxi with the boost pump off.

 

 

[img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01CECDC4.9593AB50[/img]

 

Finding a fuel leak is pretty straight forward, especially with the aid of the blue dye.  How do you find a connection that doesn’t leak fuel, but does allow air?

 

bob

 

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Viewed:

11528 Time(s)

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:10 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

Good point Kelly.  I had an air leak in the fuel line between the tank 

and wobble pump on my Pitts.  It almost drove me nuts .... well, more 

nuts!  I couldn't see that the rudder pedal had worn a hole in the hard 

line.  My fault .... the result of poor repairs .... but it was really 

difficult to find since the problem .... engine surged like an old 

Sopwith .... because the rudder pedal would cover the hole and 'fix' the 

problem!!!  The leaking fuel was so slight that it evaporated and left 

no smell.  Good call!

Linn



On 10/20/2013 6:37 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 You could download your engine data from your EFIS, and look at both 

 fuel pressure and fuel flow simultaneously. I don't think there is an 

 issue with your fuel pressure sensor, but it would be good to see what 

 was happening on fuel flow at the same time pressure was dropping. The 

 mechanical pump is supposed to be able to handle up to -2 psi input, 

 i.e overcoming an uphill flow on the input side.

 There is one other possibility. You could have a leak between the 

 electric pump and the mechanical pump. If that is the case, the 

 mechanical pump sucks air through the leak, which reduces the pressure 

 to the engine, while the electric pump will over come this.

 Rule out the chance of an air leak between boost pump and mechanical 

 before assuming that mechanical pump is bad.



 On 10/20/2013 2:46 PM, Linn Walters wrote:

> With the info presented I think you're spot on. I agree with the call 

> to Lycoming .... they should ship you a new pump. Up to you to do the 

> R&R which has always been a PITA for me. My best guess is that there 

> is some small piece of trash (don't know what else to call it) hung 

> up in one of the valves.

> Linn

> On 10/20/2013 4:47 PM, Bob Leffler wrote:

>>

>> As several already are aware, I had some fuel flow issues on my 

>> first flight. At the time, in the air, I wasn’t quite sure what the 

>> issue may have been. It was initially looking like a blocked fuel 

>> line. The symptom was that the fuel pressure dropped significantly, 

>> but came back up with the electric fuel pump turned on and switching 

>> the tanks. I promptly landed and started looking for the root cause.

>>

>> 1.The left and right tank fuel flow (measured at the firewall, 

>> forward of the filter and pump) was 58 gallons/hour. Rules out a 

>> blockage aft of the firewall.

>>

>> 2.The fuel vents are not obstructed

>>

>> I ran the engine in a static test. Was getting about 20psi on the 

>> engine fuel pump and about 26psi with the electric fuel pump 

>> enabled. Since this is all within specifications, this is the worst 

>> of all the scenarios. No root cause and everything seems to be 

>> working as designed.

>>

>> This morning I flew for about an hour on flight #2.

>>

>> When I turned off the electric fuel pump, fuel pressure started to 

>> immediately drop. I let it drop to about 10psi before I re-engaged 

>> the electric fuel pump. With the electric fuel pump running, I was 

>> getting 26psi. I repeated this scenario multiple times on both fuel 

>> tanks during the flight. Results were pretty consistent.

>>

>> It’s looking like I may have a bad fuel pump on this 1 SNEW 

>> YIO-540-D4A5. I plan on giving Lycoming a call in the morning.

>>

>> My questions is there any other scenarios that I’m overlooking that 

>> may yield similar symptoms?

>>

>> Thanks,

>>

>> bob

>>

>> *

>>

>>

>> *

>>

>> No virus found in this message.

>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

>> 10/20/13

>>

>

> *

> *

 -----

 No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:11 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

Since you can't reproduce this on the ground I am wondering if you have an airflow created vacuum on the tank vents.  I may be all wet, but if there is a difference between flight and ground, it shouldn't be a mechanical problem. 

  

Gary Specketer 

 

   

From: "Bob Leffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com>n't

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 4:47:25 PM

Subject: Fuel Pump Issue



    

As several already are aware, I had some fuel flow issues on my first flight.  At the time, in the air, I wasnâ€™t quite sure what the issue may have been.  It was initially looking like a blocked fuel line.  The symptom was that the fuel pressure dropped significantly, but came back up with the electric fuel pump turned on and switching the tanks.  I promptly landed and started looking for the root cause. 

  

1.       The left and right tank fuel flow (measured at the firewall, forward of the filter and pump) was 58 gallons/hour.  Rules out a blockage aft of the firewall. 

2.       The fuel vents are not obstructed 

  

I ran the engine in a static test.   Was getting about 20psi on the engine fuel pump and about 26psi with the electric fuel pump enabled.  Since this is all within specifications, this is the worst of all the scenarios.  No root cause and everything seems to be working as designed. 

  

This morning I flew for about an hour on flight #2. 

  

When I turned off the electric fuel pump, fuel pressure started to immediately drop.  I let it drop to about 10psi before I re-engaged the electric fuel pump.  With the electric fuel pump running, I was getting 26psi.  I repeated this scenario multiple times on both fuel tanks during the flight.  Results were pretty consistent. 

  

Itâ€™s looking like I may  have a bad fuel pump on this 1 SNEW YIO-540-D4A5.  I plan on giving Lycoming a call in the morning. 

  

My questions is there any other scenarios that Iâ€™m overlooking that may yield similar symptoms? 

  

Thanks, 

  

bob 

  

 

[quote]



get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

p://forums.matronics.com

blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:05 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

On the ground, throttle and mixture full aft, idle cutoff; turn on 

electric pump with tunnel open and cowling off. After pressure comes up, 

look for leaks. Anything that lets in air under suction will leak under 

pressure. Ideally a couple observers, one in reach of the switch to kill 

pressure as soon as leak is spotted.



On 10/20/2013 3:45 PM, Bob Leffler wrote:

[quote]

 Here’s the Fuel Flow and Fuel Pressure overlaid. The dips are 

 consistent when I turned off the electric fuel pump. An interesting 

 anomaly is that the fuel pressure is higher during taxi with the boost 

 pump off.



 Finding a fuel leak is pretty straight forward, especially with the 

 aid of the blue dye. How do you find a connection that doesn’t leak 

 fuel, but does allow air?



 bob



 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

cooprv7(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:54 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

The likely culprit does sound like the fuel pump, although the fact that all is well on the ground is interesting.  My first project was a Q-2 and when I upgraded from the VW engine to an O-200 I had lots of fuel starvation issues.  After an eternity I chased it down to the fact that when I had to modify the shape of the cowl it created an area of negative pressure at the fuel vent.  While not too likely your issue, I'd make sure you have your vents as directed in the plans.  Even something as simple as having the angled cutoff facing the wrong way could make for interesting problems.



Good luck,

Marcus



On Oct 20, 2013, at 7:11 PM, speckter(at)comcast.net (speckter(at)comcast.net) wrote:

Since you can't reproduce this on the ground I am wondering if you have an airflow created vacuum on the tank vents.  I may be all wet, but if there is a difference between flight and ground, it shouldn't be a mechanical problem.

 

Gary Specketer



From: "Bob Leffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com (rv(at)thelefflers.com)>n't

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 4:47:25 PM

Subject: Fuel Pump Issue

As several already are aware, I had some fuel flow issues on my first flight.  At the time, in the air, I wasn’t quite sure what the issue may have been.  It was initially looking like a blocked fuel line.  The symptom was that the fuel pressure dropped significantly, but came back up with the electric fuel pump turned on and switching the tanks.  I promptly landed and started looking for the root cause.



 1.       The left and right tank fuel flow (measured at the firewall, forward of the filter and pump) was 58 gallons/hour.  Rules out a blockage aft of the firewall.

2.       The fuel vents are not obstructed



 I ran the engine in a static test.   Was getting about 20psi on the engine fuel pump and about 26psi with the electric fuel pump enabled.  Since this is all within specifications, this is the worst of all the scenarios.  No root cause and everything seems to be working as designed.



 This morning I flew for about an hour on flight #2.



 When I turned off the electric fuel pump, fuel pressure started to immediately drop.  I let it drop to about 10psi before I re-engaged the electric fuel pump.  With the electric fuel pump running, I was getting 26psi.  I repeated this scenario multiple times on both fuel tanks during the flight.  Results were pretty consistent.



 It’s looking like I may  have a bad fuel pump on this 1 SNEW YIO-540-D4A5.  I plan on giving Lycoming a call in the morning.



 My questions is there any other scenarios that I’m overlooking that may yield similar symptoms?



 Thanks,



 bob



 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

p://forums.matronics.com

blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution







style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com

style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




 [quote][b]

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:05 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:55 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

After shipping the data logs from my two flights and ground testing to Lycoming, they are recommending replacing my fuel pump.   Naturally, I am just outside the warranty period.



They recommended a part #62B26931, which I can find that it is an approved substitute for the installed part, which is a LW15473.   Anyone know what the difference may be?



Bob



Sent from my iPad

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:28 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

Looks like Lycoming has approved that part number. Have no idea the 

difference. Maybe different vendor?

On 10/21/2013 4:55 PM, Bob Leffler wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 After shipping the data logs from my two flights and ground testing to Lycoming, they are recommending replacing my fuel pump.   Naturally, I am just outside the warranty period.



 They recommended a part #62B26931, which I can find that it is an approved substitute for the installed part, which is a LW15473.   Anyone know what the difference may be?



 Bob



 Sent from my iPad

SL_L255_fuel_pumps.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

SL_L255_fuel_pumps.pdf

Filesize:

41.09 KB

Downloaded:

470 Time(s)

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

BPA(at)bpaengines.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:37 am Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

Lycoming is notorious for part number changes. Any time they change a

vendor they change a P/N. Tempest makes the pump also. Call Justin at

Quality Aircraft Acc.



Allen Barrett



--

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:13 am Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

Seems rather poor customer service to sell an experimental engine, that 

they know won't be put into service for many months after the sale, if 

not a year or so, to not cover a fuel pump that only has an hour or two 

of actual operation.



On 10/22/2013 5:39 AM, BPA wrote:

[quote] 



 Lycoming is notorious for part number changes. Any time they change a

 vendor they change a P/N. Tempest makes the pump also. Call Justin at

 Quality Aircraft Acc.



 Allen Barrett



 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:27 am Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

Allen,



Any opinion on the differences between the Lycoming part and the Tempest?  The Tempest is $100 less expensive. 



Thanks,



Bob



Sent from my iPad



[quote] On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:39 AM, "BPA" <BPA(at)bpaengines.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Lycoming is notorious for part number changes. Any time they change a

 vendor they change a P/N. Tempest makes the pump also. Call Justin at

 Quality Aircraft Acc.

 

 Allen Barrett

 

 --

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

BPA(at)bpaengines.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:32 am Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

They seem to work just fine in the test cell and I haven't heard of any

field issues.



Allen



--

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:35 am Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

Your guess is as good as any. Lycomng platinum gold dust sprinkled on the paperwork?



Go with the Tempest and spend the difference on 100LL/



 On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 7:26 AM, Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com (rv(at)thelefflers.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com (rv(at)thelefflers.com)>

 

 

Allen,

 

 Any opinion on the differences between the Lycoming part and the Tempest?  The Tempest is $100 less expensive.

 

 Thanks,

 

 Bob

 

 Sent from my iPad

 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:39 AM, "BPA" <BPA(at)bpaengines.com (BPA(at)bpaengines.com)> wrote:

 >
	


 > --> RV10-List message posted by: "BPA" <BPA(at)bpaengines.com (BPA(at)bpaengines.com)>

 >

 > Lycoming is notorious for part number changes. Any time they change a

 > vendor they change a P/N. Tempest makes the pump also. Call Justin at

 > Quality Aircraft Acc.

 >

 > Allen Barrett

 >

 > --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

bwestfall

Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Portland, OR

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:57 am Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

Geez Kelly what do you expect for $45,800... decent customer service?  .



-Ben



--

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:14 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

Well, I'm sure it would drive Lyc into bankruptcy to warrant that $200 pump.



On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Ben Westfall <rv10(at)sinkrate.com (rv10(at)sinkrate.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Ben Westfall" <rv10(at)sinkrate.com (rv10(at)sinkrate.com)>

  

 Geez Kelly what do you expect for $45,800... decent customer service?  .

 

 -Ben

 

 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:12 pm Post subject: Fuel Pump Issue

Just an update.......



I sent off all the engine monitor data to Lycoming.  They think it's the fuel pump.   Fortunately, they authorized a warranty repair.



Bob

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

hotwheels

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 240

Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:42 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Pump Issue

I went out on a weekend x-country flight (6 hours) and noticed some strange behavior.



In cruise, my fuel flow readings would occasionally fluctuate between 9.5 and 10.5 gph without me touching anything... At the same time, the fuel psi changed from ~18 (normal) and 14psi. At 14 the engine would stumble. Same behavior on either tank... even after richening the mixture. Turning on the electric fuel pump caused the symptom to go away. No obvious leaks and no fuel smells.



I'm wondering if I too have an issue lurking in the pump department. It's nearly time for my annual, so it's good timing as everything has to come apart anyway. 



Jay

N433RV - flying

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