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ronlee(at)pcisys.net
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 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject: Safety (Was Real Men!...) |
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If all you macho taildragger dudes can stop kissing yourself in the
mirror for a bit I have a bigger issue.
I am getting damn tired of hearing of RVs crashing and killing people.
Does anyone feel that a safety course targeted to RV pilots may
eventually improve our safety record? I don't know if you can get
anything across to putzes who fly into class 5 (?) thunderstorms, tempt
Darwin and lose, but if most accidents are pilot error we should do more
to reduce that factor.
Chose whatever motivation you want: Not leaving loved ones behind,
having more planes for the resale market, more planes for Young Eagle or
builder motivation flights or my favorite...lowering insurance costs.
It could be web-based initially with other options for group learning at
fly-ins.
Comments?
Ron Lee
Yea I fly a -6A
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kboatright1(at)comcast.ne
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: Safety (Was Real Men!...) |
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Excellent idea. What common threads do we see in fatal RV accidents?
Marginal VFR/VFR into IMC?
Low Altitude Aerobatics?
These two are the ones that come to mind for me, and the thing is, EVERYONE
knows that these are pilot killers and people still make these mistake all
too frequently.
Personally, I don't do low altitude acrobatics or buzz my friend's houses. I
will fly in marginal VFR, but have never been dumb enough (or unlucky
enough) to enter IMC.
KB
---
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yenduc(at)sbcglobal.net
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:39 pm Post subject: Safety (Was Real Men!...) |
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The lead article in the latest RV Builders hotline certainly shows
that there is plenty of room for a safety program.
dave
On Apr 6, 2007, at 9:40 PM, ronlee(at)pcisys.net wrote:
| Quote: |
If all you macho taildragger dudes can stop kissing yourself in the
mirror for a bit I have a bigger issue.
I am getting damn tired of hearing of RVs crashing and killing people.
Does anyone feel that a safety course targeted to RV pilots may
eventually improve our safety record? I don't know if you can get
anything across to putzes who fly into class 5 (?) thunderstorms,
tempt
Darwin and lose, but if most accidents are pilot error we should do
more
to reduce that factor.
Chose whatever motivation you want: Not leaving loved ones behind,
having more planes for the resale market, more planes for Young
Eagle or
builder motivation flights or my favorite...lowering insurance costs.
It could be web-based initially with other options for group
learning at
fly-ins.
Comments?
Ron Lee
Yea I fly a -6A
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/
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deruiteraircraftservices(
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:33 am Post subject: Safety (Was Real Men!...) |
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Hi All,
Has anyone ever looked into the RV accident statistics and determined the
ratio of accidents against the number of non-builder owners?
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aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Safety (Was Real Men!...) |
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Ron-
| Quote: | If all you macho taildragger dudes can stop kissing yourself in the
mirror for a bit I have a bigger issue.
|
I, for one, never kiss the mirror. You never know who was there first.
| Quote: | Does anyone feel that a safety course targeted to RV pilots may
eventually improve our safety record?
|
Only if you can get the get the right people to attend.
| Quote: | I don't know if you can get
anything across to putzes who fly into class 5 (?) thunderstorms,
tempt
Darwin and lose, but if most accidents are pilot error we should do
more
to reduce that factor.
|
Therein lies the problem. If you just stage a safety course, you will quickly find that you are preaching to the choir. Most folks who get in over their heads are ignorant. Now, somewhere, someone who has lost a friend or loved one is already annoyed with me for my diction, but think about it. If they knew they were en route to their demise, they would alter their course. But they don't. Think of the piolts you know. You probably know one who will seek out a cfi that they know will give them at least somewhat of a work out on a BFR, and one who will try to find a buddy to do a little creative writing in the log. Objectively, which one is more likely to have problems down the road? Plus, some people just don't seem to be able to be responsible and have fun at the same time.
Consider the audience on this list. We are all participating here because we acknowledge that we don't know what we don't know, but we want to learn it. There are thousands of folks reading this forum to learn. If you were to stage a safety seminar, it would be populated with a whole lot of the same folks. The putzes you referenced above would rather be out thinning the gene pool.
So. What to do. Suppose someone proclaims themselves an RV guru. Perhaps they have a resume with a goodly amount of RV time and no insurance claims, and they can write reasonably well to boot. They approach an insurance company to try and set it up so that if an RV pilot gets training and a stamp of approval from the 'guru' they will get a break on insurance rates. Sound like a plan? This was tried recently in the conventional gear world. The alphabet groups wouldn't have anything to do with it. There was no real public explanation as to why they wouldn't buy off on it, but I believe it is because it would put a whole lot of economic power, aside from the direct revenues, into the hands of an individual. How could RVer's work around this? I can see two possible avenues. First would be an FAA approved / sanctioned / recognized body representing experimental aviation running a safety program that issued some sort of completion certificate, much like the formation fliers get. The other would be a type club performing the same function. Now, where do you find the people with the right skill sets and qualifications and, perhaps most importantly, the right motivations to make this happen?
Glen Matejcek
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lm4(at)juno.com
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: Safety (Was Real Men!...) |
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Ron,
Bob Miller writes a news letter each week for all pilots
and is addressing your very peeve. The address of the
newsletter is "overtheairwaves".com. He is very
knowledgable and has researched a lot of this matter.
Larry Mac Donald
lm4(at)juno.com
Rochester N.Y.
Do not archive
On Fri, 6 Apr 2007 21:40:21 GMT ronlee(at)pcisys.net writes:
| Quote: |
If all you macho taildragger dudes can stop kissing yourself in the
|
mirror for a bit I have a bigger issue.
I am getting damn tired of hearing of RVs crashing and killing
people.
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
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rv7(at)b4.ca
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: Safety (Was Real Men!...) |
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On 16:00 1969-12-31 Glen Matejcek <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | How could RVer's work
around this? I can see two possible avenues. First would be an FAA
approved / sanctioned / recognized body representing experimental
aviation running a safety program that issued some sort of completion
certificate, much like the formation fliers get.
|
Maybe we've already got the answer, sort of, right here. We all keep logs,
and those of us who go off and do "extra" things to improve proficiency
usually have it logged in one way or another. Personally I log all of my
formation, tailwheel, and glider towing in separate columns in my logbook,
and I had to add those columns because they weren't there when I started.
I've also been counting landings since I got my PPL, and they outnumber my
flights by about 5:1 now. I know pilots for who that ratio is almost 1:1,
they never fly circuits just for the practise.
Would having your logbook reviewed annually be a good idea? Or maybe have
the option of submitting the totals for your "extra" activities, to show
that you're more than just flying straight-and-level from A to B all the
time?
-Rob
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december29(at)bellsouth.n
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: Safety (Was Real Men!...) |
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Hi,
This is how I break down RV accidents. I've looked at all the NTSB stuff
and, for me, it goes like this. First, marginal VFR. I put in a Dynon so I
have an attitude indicator with pitot heat but the aircraft is day/night
VFR. In having an aircraft that's VFR it should keep me from trying to be
stupid (I've been there, it is, end of topic)
Secondly, RV's run out of gas. This one is why I built my wings as the QB
kits come with the float gauges. I am tired of GA aircraft with bad fuel
gauges. So...........we put capacitance gauges in my -8. I also use fuel
flow, but the point is, be conservative and don't push the fuel. Know how
much you have.
Third is mechanical failure. This, I've seen, as hoses. So to answer
this, I didn't build my own hoses and pressure test them with my compressor.
I have TSO'ed hoses from Tulsa that are 3000 psi tested with a fire sleeve
on each one. Didn't like the bill, but they won't fail.
And fourth, the dumbs--t, "Watch this pullup". As an ex-USAF pilot, it
just doesn't happen. We know about rolling G's, aerodynamics, etc. In the
words of George senior, "Wouldn't be prudent...............".
I would like to see a better safety record with RV's. They are a high
performance SEL aircraft. They are not your grandma's Champ. I've seen
guys scud running over Dundee, Oregon at 300 ft in formation. That is an
accident waiting to happen.
Ron, these are the area's I've thought about. I'm sure others have ideas.
I have never shared these idea's because no one's asked. But I think they
have value. And Van addressed some of these concerns a few years back
talking about his flying attentions. It was (an is) a very good read from
the RVator. His general tone is to "polish the stone". Don't accept
landing long. Don't be 10 kts off speed. Don't fly the bomber pattern.
Pay attention.
Just my two cents,
John
80002
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seiders(at)bellsouth.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: Safety (Was Real Men!...) |
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I don't consider myself a dumb-a-- pilot, but I'm not perfect either.
I don't scud run, if it's IFR I file and fly IFR , but only if there
are no thunderstorms in my path. I never go below 1/3 tanks, and try
to avoid doing stupid things in an airplane weatherwise or otherwise.
So I'm all for those who want to contribute to this effort reminding
us all that even if we are the choir we all need to hear good
thing/bad things a lot to avoid slipping into the kind of habits
that may bite us.
Dick RV6A
At 11:53 AM 4/7/2007, you wrote:
| Quote: |
On 16:00 1969-12-31 Glen Matejcek <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net> wrote:
> How could RVer's work
> around this? I can see two possible avenues. First would be an FAA
> approved / sanctioned / recognized body representing experimental
> aviation running a safety program that issued some sort of completion
> certificate, much like the formation fliers get.
Maybe we've already got the answer, sort of, right here. We all keep logs,
and those of us who go off and do "extra" things to improve proficiency
usually have it logged in one way or another. Personally I log all of my
formation, tailwheel, and glider towing in separate columns in my logbook,
and I had to add those columns because they weren't there when I started.
I've also been counting landings since I got my PPL, and they outnumber my
flights by about 5:1 now. I know pilots for who that ratio is almost 1:1,
they never fly circuits just for the practise.
Would having your logbook reviewed annually be a good idea? Or maybe have
the option of submitting the totals for your "extra" activities, to show
that you're more than just flying straight-and-level from A to B all the
time?
-Rob
|
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
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