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EFIS Bewilderment

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Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment

OK, group.  I'm going to expose my ignorance about avionics.  I went

down to SNF with my primary goal being learning about the various

options for EFIS.  What I found was a bewildering array of choices at

prices ranging from $3,000 to $50,000.



Without knowing much about the units and their capabilities, I went to

the following vendors, Dynon, Chelton, Avidyne, Grand Rapids Technology

(GRT),  AFS, and Blue Mountain.  I asked each of them to show me how an

ILS approach would look on their system.  Since I'm instrument rated and

learned to fly ILS approaches using convential VOR/GS equipement, I

wanted to see how much better the new technology would work.



What I found was that no one system has everything I want.  Except for

GRT, every system I looked at either didn't have a suitable demo

configured to show an ILS approach (what are they thinking?), or they

could do it, but the Localizer just showed as a small pip on the bottom

of the screen, with the Glideslope an equally small pip on the side of

the screen.



When shooting an ILS, all I really want to see in front of me is the

localizer and glideslope with big vertical and horizontal lines, with a

"doughnut" in the center so I know where the lines should cross.  In

addition I want airspeed (or AOA), altitude and an artifical horizon.

The GRT system did this very well.  At around $13,000 for a two panel

system it is also at about the upper end of what I can afford to pay (I

liked the Chelton and Avidyne systems, but at $31,000 and $50,000

respectively, they are out of my price range).  I talked with a couple

of RV-10 builders at the Van's tent and they mostly seemed to favor

either the GRT system or the Dynon.



I did like the engine monitor panel that AFS provides, like Van's put on

N410RV.  I wonder how well it would work to have their engine panel with

GRT's EFIS?



At the risk of starting a huge thread, I would like to see a discussion

of the strong points and weak points of the systems that are in my

limited price range, which includes AFS, Dynon, Blue Mountain and GRT.

Anyone have actual flying experience (including actual instrument

approaches) that they would like to share?



Jack Phillips

#40610

Raleigh, NC



_________________________________________________

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:49 am Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment

In a message dated 4/23/2007 11:34:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  When shooting an ILS, all I really want to see in front of me is the

localizer and glideslope with big vertical and horizontal lines, with a

"doughnut" in the center so I know where the lines should cross. 	


 Jack,

  

 I've flown the G 1000 several times in actual...and the presentation for the new equipment is not going to be like steam guages...you've got to learn a new system.  You can hand fly the G 1000 down the slope using the tapes or one can monitor the approach on the auto pilot as you control pitch and power.  As far as I know, no one is replicating a steam guage face in modern avionics, not the airlines, corp or ga...Once you get with the tapes and an EFIS they are all in one place right infront of you...you don't need to scan side to side and up and down...it's all bacially straight a head of you...and if you want to glance at the MFD you can see how you are progressing...the Chilton will even give you a wind correction angle to fly on the EFIS...I don't see how it can be any simpler...some of us ol' dogs got to learn new tricks.

  

 P



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment

In a message dated 4/23/2007 11:51:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  ...the Chilton will even give you a wind correction angle to fly on the EFIS.. 	


 correction...I meant to say EHSI...to many initials an so little time!!!

  

 P



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:36 am Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment

Jack,

Welcome to the agony of the EFIS decision process. 

I think you have a mixed-bag in your question.  On one hand, there

are systems in those that you listed that definitely have

some limitations as to how they present info or how well

they drive autopilots to do approaches, but on the other hand,

I think a majority of them would fly an ILS very nicely.



That said, how well you can display an CDI for flying an

ILS is just a tiny fraction of the many features that you

need to compare, and educating yourself as to the overall

features/advantages/benefits of each system can be one of

the hardest things to do.  I will say it again, as I've

said before....if someone is seriously considering buying

an EFIS, especially for IFR flight, you will do yourself

a big favor and the money will be well spent if you

will just take the time to do a demo flight with a flying

system.  Not a demo software app, but a real demo flight,

where you can push buttons and ask questions.



Each of the vendors below has progressed in the past 1-2

years, with new equipment or new features being added.

They just keep getting nicer, as we're seeing with

the AFS system adding weather, and the Dynon adding

more NAV functions, the GRT's screens that are soon to

come, and more.  Finding the right EFIS for you though,

will still be as hard of a decision as ever, as no matter

how you slice it, EVERY system has a list of negatives

that go along with it's list of positives.



The subject gets into too much depth to do in one email, and

unless you're asking about one function in particular, it's

just going to start a flurry of "mine is best" emails if

you ask the list to tell you what to decide.  In the

end, I believe the best way to decide is to read all

of the feature lists, and develop your own feature

requirements.  Then find a match, and toss out all the

other choices.  Once you make it that far, you probably

have a short list, and you should contact people to try

to get a demo flight with the unit.  Also, unless you

have a lot of trust, buy a unit based on the feature

set that it has at the time you spend your money.  Often

times the vendors will pre-sell these features that

really don't exist for months or even years afterwards

in production.



Most of the major players in the EFIS market are doing

a good job at making strides in product improvement,

and depending on your other radio and instrument choices,

and your feature requirements, it could be very possible

to meet your goals without totally smashing your budget.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Phillips, Jack wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 OK, group.  I'm going to expose my ignorance about avionics.  I went

 down to SNF with my primary goal being learning about the various

 options for EFIS.  What I found was a bewildering array of choices at

 prices ranging from $3,000 to $50,000.

 

 Without knowing much about the units and their capabilities, I went to

 the following vendors, Dynon, Chelton, Avidyne, Grand Rapids Technology

 (GRT),  AFS, and Blue Mountain.  I asked each of them to show me how an

 ILS approach would look on their system.  Since I'm instrument rated and

 learned to fly ILS approaches using convential VOR/GS equipement, I

 wanted to see how much better the new technology would work.

 

 What I found was that no one system has everything I want.  Except for

 GRT, every system I looked at either didn't have a suitable demo

 configured to show an ILS approach (what are they thinking?), or they

 could do it, but the Localizer just showed as a small pip on the bottom

 of the screen, with the Glideslope an equally small pip on the side of

 the screen.

 

 When shooting an ILS, all I really want to see in front of me is the

 localizer and glideslope with big vertical and horizontal lines, with a

 "doughnut" in the center so I know where the lines should cross.  In

 addition I want airspeed (or AOA), altitude and an artifical horizon.

 The GRT system did this very well.  At around $13,000 for a two panel

 system it is also at about the upper end of what I can afford to pay (I

 liked the Chelton and Avidyne systems, but at $31,000 and $50,000

 respectively, they are out of my price range).  I talked with a couple

 of RV-10 builders at the Van's tent and they mostly seemed to favor

 either the GRT system or the Dynon.

 

 I did like the engine monitor panel that AFS provides, like Van's put on

 N410RV.  I wonder how well it would work to have their engine panel with

 GRT's EFIS?

 

 At the risk of starting a huge thread, I would like to see a discussion

 of the strong points and weak points of the systems that are in my

 limited price range, which includes AFS, Dynon, Blue Mountain and GRT.

 Anyone have actual flying experience (including actual instrument

 approaches) that they would like to share?

 

 Jack Phillips

 #40610

 Raleigh, NC

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment

The Dynon with a Garmin stack including a 430 and a GDL106A NAV display is

what N256H, N415EC and N416EC have and all have done actual IFR approaches

on this system and it works fine.  It really is a great combination of the

old (NAV display) and the new (EFIS and IFR GPS).  Not all your eggs are in

one basket, and it is probably the cheapest good IFR system you can buy.



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

www.saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



--

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:53 am Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment

Oh, and don't forget the TruTrak Sorcerer, which will fly the approach for

you on the ILS or GPA WAAS.  Just remember that it won't flare for you.



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

www.saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



--

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:32 am Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment

Yes, it may be too broad a topic for this list to get into in detail, but it

might be possible for those who are flying and have flown their systems IFR

to do the following:  



1.  What is the one thing you have discovered about your system that is an

absolute joy and makes you thank the gods of panel design that you bought

what you did (or for that matter, was the reason you did buy what you did);



2.  Now that you are flying, what is the one thing that you have found that

you do not like about your system, either because something is lacking or

because the implementation could have been better.  



For example, I'm just beginning to understand what "fully integrated" means

and why it might be worthwhile to consider, even though such systems are

rather spendy.  



John (in buildus interruptus purgatory) Jessen

  #40328 



do not archive



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:19 am Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment

Shooting from the hip on this one, without much thought, but my

answers to 1 and 2 might be:



1) I previously after only seeing HITS on MS Flight Sim, thought that

such systems were gimicks and HITS was cheesy at best.   I've found in

practice though that when you take the HITS, and combine it with

a full IFR approach database that even includes SIDS and STARS,

and then couple it to an overhead map that displays WX/TIS/Terrain

data, and draws the full approaches, AND, to top it all off, it can 

control your autopilot, that the HITS and everything else can be a huge,

or maybe put that in caps....HUGE...benefit to ease of flying

in IMC.  I went from being a person who very often and easily got

"the leans" in IMC flight, to a person who hasn't experienced them

once since flying with a synthetic vision EFIS.  It's been truly

amazing.  If you have to load and manage your approach using an

external box, then you don't know what you're missing.  For me,

the GNS480 is really truly just a backup instrument.



2) This question gets to be much harder for me personally.

I think the sport system could use more ARINC ports like the

pro systems, and if they then would decode the Garmin

proprietary stuff they could drop the ARINC converter

from the system and get TIS directly via ARINC from a GTX330.

That would be nice, and save some money and wiring, and

with some additional decoding, it would be nice to have

auto-tuning of the GNS480 as my #2 comm....At least though when

you have an SL-30 (the worlds ultimate radio, IMHO) you can

do a MONitor of the 2nd NAV Freq. on the SL-30 and display both

CDI's on the screen simultaneously, so it could be worse

if that weren't the case.



Oh, and a negative for most any of the systems, including

mine....it's too bad that WX data has to be such a paid-for

subscription thing.  Doesn't matter if you have XM or WSI,

but it sure would be nice to have that cost be $10/mo.

Had some good storms on my screen 50 miles distant this

weekend and it was nice to know where they were all

the time though, so I'll just keep paying up.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

John Jessen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Yes, it may be too broad a topic for this list to get into in detail, but it

 might be possible for those who are flying and have flown their systems IFR

 to do the following:  

 

 1.  What is the one thing you have discovered about your system that is an

 absolute joy and makes you thank the gods of panel design that you bought

 what you did (or for that matter, was the reason you did buy what you did);

 

 2.  Now that you are flying, what is the one thing that you have found that

 you do not like about your system, either because something is lacking or

 because the implementation could have been better.  

 

 For example, I'm just beginning to understand what "fully integrated" means

 and why it might be worthwhile to consider, even though such systems are

 rather spendy.  

 

 John (in buildus interruptus purgatory) Jessen

   #40328 

 

 do not archive

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:17 am Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment

Well, since we're making this official and Tim has already reposted, I guess

I will too.



1.  I think with the panel that we have the answer to this one would be COST

(Dynon FlightDEK, TruTrak ADI, Garmin GMA340, GNS430, SL40, GTX327, GI106A,

GPS396 and TruTrak Sorcerer).  Everything is a nice huge step up from the

historical 6-pack with dual nav radios and so on.  The IFR GPS is a very

solid platform for today's flying, so getting all of the flight instruments

consolidated onto a single screen and adding all of the engine monitoring

equipment makes for nice flying.



2.  I can't think of anything I would change.  The system keeps getting

better with software updates, but I would say that having the Dynon heated

Pitot would be nice add-on to get the AOA information, but that wasn't

available until very recently.



3.  How much did it cost (a very big part of the equation for some)?

$30,000.



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

www.saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



--

Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment

Thanks for this and all the other responses on this issue.  I’m sure I can learn to fly a different system, and really look forward to my “scan” being limited to one nice easy to ready screen, rather than the usual “6-pack”, but until I try it I don’t know which one I would like best, and hate to make a multi-thousand dollar mistake.  There has already been some useful discussion on this subject.  Thanks to all who have replied.  

     

Jack Phillips  

  

   

--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment

This reply was one I wrote off-list accidently to someone

who responded to me, but I figured I'd post it on-list

in case someone cared.

----

Yes, on that first post I was very much trying not to make it a

specific reply on MY choice, because there are many very nice

EFIS players in the market these days.  I'm impressed with

the AFS stuff, for example.  There is no one system that will

satisfy any person.  As you can tell, I like the Chelton, Jesse

plugs the Dynon, Russ loves his GRT, Deems loves the OP.  Everyone

has very valid reason why they like theirs.  To me, pricing

is not one of the major decision points, but features are.  As

you saw in Jesse's post, a very suitable IFR panel can be put

together even if "COST" is your major factor.  But, each and every

system you have to choose from does have a very different set of

features/advantages/benefits, and there's a lot of personal

choice in there.  I myself would have a hard time with some

of the compromises had I gone another route, although those

compromises wouldn't necessarily be as large if I stuck with

the higher-end systems like G900's or OP Tech. Besides that,

the there are other things such as the G900's ease of wiring

that other systems can hardly touch.  There is no one-size-fits-all

in the EFIS world.  For instance, living in the mountainous

West, Terrain on the PFD would be a very big benefit.

Finding your wants and needs is all part of the process.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

flysrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:31 am Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment

I cannot stand it and must get into the EFIS discussion!



I agree with the comments so far that there is not one perfect EFIS  

solution.  However, for the budget minded guys, GRT seems to be a  

good bang for the buck and somewhat ahead of everyone else in terms  

of features and maturity in the same price category.  This is not to  

say that in couple of months others will not catch up.



I have a pair of GRTs, TT IIVSGV and a Garmin 530 and offer the  

following comments for the specific questions that John has asked:



 	  Quote: 	
		   1.  What is the one thing you have discovered about your system  

 that is an

 absolute joy


	


When coupled to TT IIVSGV, I am able to fly heading, preselect  

altitude and fly Vectors as directed by the controllers.  As soon as  

the localizer is detected by GRT, it will automatically couple the  

autopilot to the localizer and the glide-slope and fly the approach.   

I have found this to be GRT's best feature for IFR flying and I am  

sure other units such as Chelton do the same.



You asked for one but I am going to give you two:  Weather display is  

the other thing.  I can zoom out 1000 NM and see what may be behind a  

weather system.  This, I will never give up and the subscription  

costs less than cable TV.



Wait, I give you another one:  Garmin 530 (not to discredit other  

GPS', this is the only IFR GPS I have flown).  It is made to do  

approches.  Any GPS will get you from A to B.  This one really shines  

in the approach phase.  When coupled to TT IIVSGV, it flies the full  

approach including the procedure turns and the holds.  You just sit  

there and watch it go around and around.



But please, let's not into the pros and cons of hand flying verses  

auto pilot flying.



 	  Quote: 	
		   and makes you thank the gods of panel design that you bought

 what you did (or for that matter, was the reason you did buy what  

 you did);


	


Price.  I don't  thank god for what I bought but ask him for the  

reason he did not give the courage to spend more money and get a  

Chelton.



 	  Quote: 	
		   2.  Now that you are flying, what is the one thing that you have  

 found that

 you do not like about your system, either because something is  

 lacking or

 because the implementation could have been better.


	


Pushing buttons with the GRT is a real pain especially since there is  

no dedicated Direct-To button.  There are a total of five buttons you  

must push in addition to inputing the airport ID for this function.



GRT told me at Sun & Fun that they will have a better way to do the  

Direct-To function, so at least this may not be an issue in the future.

Do not archive



On Apr 23, 2007, at 1:31 PM, John Jessen wrote:



[quote] 



 Yes, it may be too broad a topic for this list to get into in  

 detail, but it

 might be possible for those who are flying and have flown their  

 systems IFR

 to do the following:



 1.  What is the one thing you have discovered about your system  

 that is an

 absolute joy and makes you thank the gods of panel design that you  

 bought

 what you did (or for that matter, was the reason you did buy what  

 you did);



 2.  Now that you are flying, what is the one thing that you have  

 found that

 you do not like about your system, either because something is  

 lacking or

 because the implementation could have been better.



 For example, I'm just beginning to understand what "fully  

 integrated" means

 and why it might be worthwhile to consider, even though such  

 systems are

 rather spendy.



 John (in buildus interruptus purgatory) Jessen

   #40328



 do not archive



 --

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:00 am Post subject: EFIS Bewilderment

I would like to add something, but have no experience.

As a near future buyer, I have spent a fair amount of time looking at the 

web pages. It sure seems that GRT has a really well put together web site 

which tell the capabilities of their units. Some confusion exist with 

regards to prices and the sport vs. EFIS1, but in all they have put together 

a good site.

As for Dynon, they seem to be catching up with GRT capabilities, but from 

their web site, I cannot tell what it is that their units actually do.

I am between GRT sport dual monitors or Dynon dual monitors and I just don't 

know. Dynon is less $$$ but what of the capabilities????

JOhn G.

Quite confused, yet a lot less confused than I was two weeks ago.

[quote]From: Rob Kermanj <flysrv10(at)gmail.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: EFIS Bewilderment

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:29:43 -0400

I cannot stand it and must get into the EFIS discussion!

I agree with the comments so far that there is not one perfect EFIS  

solution.  However, for the budget minded guys, GRT seems to be a  good 

bang for the buck and somewhat ahead of everyone else in terms  of features 

and maturity in the same price category.  This is not to  say that in 

couple of months others will not catch up.

I have a pair of GRTs, TT IIVSGV and a Garmin 530 and offer the  following 

comments for the specific questions that John has asked:

>1.  What is the one thing you have discovered about your system  that is 

>an

>absolute joy

When coupled to TT IIVSGV, I am able to fly heading, preselect  altitude 

and fly Vectors as directed by the controllers.  As soon as  the localizer 

is detected by GRT, it will automatically couple the  autopilot to the 

localizer and the glide-slope and fly the approach.   I have found this to 

be GRT's best feature for IFR flying and I am  sure other units such as 

Chelton do the same.

You asked for one but I am going to give you two:  Weather display is  the 

other thing.  I can zoom out 1000 NM and see what may be behind a  weather 

system.  This, I will never give up and the subscription  costs less than 

cable TV.

Wait, I give you another one:  Garmin 530 (not to discredit other  GPS', 

this is the only IFR GPS I have flown).  It is made to do  approches.  Any 

GPS will get you from A to B.  This one really shines  in the approach 

phase.  When coupled to TT IIVSGV, it flies the full  approach including 

the procedure turns and the holds.  You just sit  there and watch it go 

around and around.

But please, let's not into the pros and cons of hand flying verses  auto 

pilot flying.

>and makes you thank the gods of panel design that you bought

>what you did (or for that matter, was the reason you did buy what  you 

>did);

Price.  I don't  thank god for what I bought but ask him for the  reason he 

did not give the courage to spend more money and get a  Chelton.

>2.  Now that you are flying, what is the one thing that you have  found 

>that

>you do not like about your system, either because something is  lacking or

>because the implementation could have been better.

Pushing buttons with the GRT is a real pain especially since there is  no 

dedicated Direct-To button.  There are a total of five buttons you  must 

push in addition to inputing the airport ID for this function.

GRT told me at Sun & Fun that they will have a better way to do the  

Direct-To function, so at least this may not be an issue in the future.

Do not archive

On Apr 23, 2007, at 1:31 PM, John Jessen wrote:

>

>

>Yes, it may be too broad a topic for this list to get into in  detail, but 

>it

>might be possible for those who are flying and have flown their  systems 

>IFR

>to do the following:

>

>1.  What is the one thing you have discovered about your system  that is 

>an

>absolute joy and makes you thank the gods of panel design that you  bought

>what you did (or for that matter, was the reason you did buy what  you 

>did);

>

>2.  Now that you are flying, what is the one thing that you have  found 

>that

>you do not like about your system, either because something is  lacking or

>because the implementation could have been better.

>

>For example, I'm just beginning to understand what "fully  integrated" 

>means

>and why it might be worthwhile to consider, even though such  systems are

>rather spendy.

>

>John (in buildus interruptus purgatory) Jessen

>   #40328

>

>do not archive

>

>--

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