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582 vibration

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ray_mckinley(at)evansinet
Guest

Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: 582 vibration

I have a kitfox lit squared 2 which is the same as a Classic IV.  I have about 2 hours on it and the engine seems to vibrate and excessive amount.  I have no experience with this combination and would like to know if it is normal.  

Ray McKinley 582 blue head with 2 blade GSC prop and tri gear  

        [quote][b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: 582 vibration

At 08:35 PM 5/6/2007, you wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  I have no experience with this combination and would like to know if it is normal.

 

 Ray McKinley 582 blue head with 2 blade GSC prop and tri gear 	


 Ray,

         Where are you? You're going to have to find someone with a similar rig who's close to compare directly.



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.     [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 2:57 am Post subject: 582 vibration

Ray,

     Two things come to mind.   First, the 582 seems to run rough at idle below 2500 RPM's.  Second, check  the prop closely that all three blades are set to the exact same pitch.   One blade off a little will cause vibration.  You didn't really say when or  where you get the vibration.  Is it idle, a certain RPM or  flying?

  

 Don Smythe

Classic IV w/582

Newport News,  Va.

  

  

 [quote]   ---

ray_mckinley(at)evansinet
Guest

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:43 am Post subject: 582 vibration

Don   

The engine smoothes out at 3000 RPM but the vibration is there at a small amplitude.  As the RPM increases the vibration gets more and more pronounced.  I am near Livingston CA .  The prop is a GSC 2 blade and I have checked the settings and both blades are the same the tracking is within 1/8 inch the GSC instructions say that this is OK.        

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Smythe

 Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 3:57 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 582 vibration  

  

     

Ray,  

    

    Two things come to mind.  First, the 582 seems to run rough at idle below 2500 RPM's.  Second, check the prop closely that all three blades are set to the exact same pitch.  One blade off a little will cause vibration.  You didn't really say when or where you get the vibration.  Is it idle, a certain RPM or flying?  

    

   

    

Don Smythe

 Classic IV w/582

 Newport News, Va.  

    

   

    

   

  [quote]    

---

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 7:38 am Post subject: 582 vibration

If it's a ground adjustable GSC, it sounds more  like you may have a slight pitch imbalance rather than tracking  error.   It only takes a small amount to cause vibration, especially  with a two blader.  A small laser pen can be easily rigged up to make a  good pitch indicator for adjustment.  Your only limit is your  imagination.  

 Deke Morisse

N148DM

S5/Soob/CAP

NE  Michigan



  

 [quote]   ---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: 582 vibration

At 05:42 AM 5/7/2007, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  The engine smoothes out at 3000 RPM but the vibration is there at a small amplitude.  As the RPM increases the vibration gets more and more pronounced.  I am near Livingston CA .  	


         It sounds like the prop. I would check the blade length first, then pitch, at 75% of the blade length, then balance. Get it dynamically balanced if you can. There was a long discussion of this subject recently so check the archives. The Warp owners had problems with twist variations between blades. I don't remember anything being said about GSC.

         If you're still unsure by June 8 I'd be glad to stop by on my way to Lowell's. I've got a 582 powered IV, but it has a three blade Warp. It vibrates too, but the pitch has been checked and the prop dynamically balanced so it's as good as it's going to get. (The vibration doesn't track RPM until above about 6000 RPM, though.) Let me know.



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.     [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 10:56 am Post subject: 582 vibration

Ray,

     The 582 will run rough up to  around 2500 or 3000.  This is not what I would call vibration but just  rough.  Without actually feeling the problem it's hard to understand the  difference between what might be rough or vibration.  Also, the 2 blade  versus 3 blade might be adding to the situation.

  

 Don Smythe

Classic IV w/582

Newport News,  Va.

  

 Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

GONER752(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject: 582 vibration

Ray,

  I have the 582 grey head, with a c-drive and 3 bladed GSC. I have to  echo the others, the 582 vibrates terribly at idle, or just above,(2000-3000).  Although, it is smooth at top end. I would definitely suspect a prop related  problem, unbalanced, unequal pitich, etc. Good luck and let us know.

 Greg G.   

 Macedon,  N.Y.

23NK

n375KL

Mod 2

582





See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

ray_mckinley(at)evansinet
Guest

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject: 582 vibration

Hi Guy   

I checked the pitch setting today and found that it is ½ degree off one side is 17 degrees and the other it 17.5 degrees I also rechecked the rpm this weekend and found that the static ground speed was 6800 rpm so I set the pitch a little steeper  at 18 degrees on both blades to see if that lowers the static rpm to 6200 and helps with the vibration.  I will let you know how it turns out and thanks for all the input from everyone.  All good info  

Ray McKinley 582-C 3 to 1 GSC 2 blade prop being adjusted  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan

 Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 10:25 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: 582 vibration  

  

   

At 05:42 AM 5/7/2007, you wrote:

 

   

The engine smoothes out at 3000 RPM but the vibration is there at a small amplitude.  As the RPM increases the vibration gets more and more pronounced.  I am near Livingston CA .    



         It sounds like the prop. I would check the blade length first, then pitch, at 75% of the blade length, then balance. Get it dynamically balanced if you can. There was a long discussion of this subject recently so check the archives. The Warp owners had problems with twist variations between blades. I don't remember anything being said about GSC.

         If you're still unsure by June 8 I'd be glad to stop by on my way to Lowell's. I've got a 582 powered IV, but it has a three blade Warp. It vibrates too, but the pitch has been checked and the prop dynamically balanced so it's as good as it's going to get. (The vibration doesn't track RPM until above about 6000 RPM, though.) Let me know.

 

 

     

Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.    	  Quote: 	
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        [quote][b]

Clem Nichols

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Munfordville, Ky

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: 582 vibration

Guy:

  

 Where did you get your Warp Drive Prop dynamically  balanced?  I spoke with one the fellows at Warp Drive, and he said they  balanced props statically.  Thanks for your response.

  

 Clem Nichols

 Model IV1200

 Subaru EA81

 Munfordville, Ky.

 [quote]   ---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: 582 vibration

At 05:54 PM 5/7/2007, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Where did you get your Warp Drive Prop dynamically balanced?  I spoke with one the fellows at Warp Drive, and he said they balanced props statically.  Thanks for your response. 	


 A local FBO did it. Cruisair in Ramona. Most large FBO's have the capability to dynamically balance, it's fairly common for spam cans. A warning, though. It's expensive, (~$200,) and I noticed little difference. I think if you do a really good and conscientious static balance you'll be fine.



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.     [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

trevorkebb(at)earthlink.n
Guest

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:45 am Post subject: 582 vibration

Ray,

  

 I don't know why my GSC prop greyhead 582 is different  but I use 23-2500 rpm when the engine is cold to get a smooth idle. Once it  warms up it will easily go down to 2100 and idle there happily all  day with very minimal vibration. You can almost count the prop blades going by.  Below 2050 the shakes abruptly come in; my feeling is that the  vibration is an engine/gearbox/prop/rotational mass thingy, and not  something inherent to the 582 itself.

  

 I do know that I spent a lot of time when I  built her getting the carbs synched together just so, so the slides were in the  exact same position at idle and all the way through their throws. And that idle  mixture was mapped and matched. Don't ask me how I did it as that was more  than 10 years ago and my remembrance(?) is fuzzy. A lot of the  tuning was done with very careful measurements and, above all, feel.  The carb settings have never been changed since then other than main jet changes  for the seasons. I have also spent quite a bit of time making sure the  blades on my GSC were pitched evenly. 

  

 The 582 can be a remarkably smooth engine,  especially for a 600cc parallel twin with no counterbalancers. I remember that  in my college days my 360cc Honda twin pretty much shook my kidneys to jelly on  a cross country ride.

  

 You might want to check your carb slides and idle mixture  screws and the position of the carb needles and size of the main jets; make sure  none of them are way off or mismatched. Also check that the carbs are  square to the engine. And check that your throttle cables are evenly pulling the  slides up and down.

  

 Robert Beck

 Model IV 1050 w/582

 Loaded but LIGHT

  

 [quote]   ---

Mark.Napier(at)sciatl.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:15 am Post subject: 582 Vibration

I have a 582 with a GSC 3 blade and it vibrates too.  I haven't found a

good solution yet.



Now I had a tough time getting my mixture right at low RPM's.  The

engine would load up and quit if I pulled back for too long.  The answer

was changing the idle jets.  I went from 55 to 50 down to 45 before I

got an acceptable idle.  The engine will idle for as low as 1800 RPM.  I

don't idle it there but I can pull the engine all the way back while

landing so it doesn't float like it did before.



Even so, if I have to taxing around very much at an airport I have to

occasionally run the engine up above 3000 to avoid fouling the plugs.



 



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tc9008(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: 582 vibration

I have a 582 c box and gsc props. My primer was leaking fuel by and it made my mixture rich enough to idle rough. New primer did the trick. Disconnect the primer and stop up all outlets on primer and carbs, maybe it will idle smooth

    

   Travis

  

 --

gofalke(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject: 582 vibration

I read that some of you have vibration problems with your 582 engines, and you are suspecting propeller imbalance. If everything else fails you may want to invest in a gadget called Propeller and Engine Balancers, called "Propeller Balance Master" sold thru > Leading Edge Air Foils,LLC.<                  

  I ran across their ad in their free ROTAX Parts catalog, on sale for $60.

  My 912UL engine fortunately does not need it, but they advertize it for 582's.

  1-800-532-3462. www.leadingedgeairfoils.com 

  This looks cheaper than a $200 dynamic balance job.

  Hope this may help somebody!

   

  Herb Gottelt M4-1200, 912UL

  Mount Prospect, IL

   

   Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>  wrote

  :At 05:54 PM 5/7/2007, you wrote:



  [quote]   	  Quote: 	
		  Where did you get your Warp Drive Prop dynamically balanced?  I spoke with one the fellows at Warp Drive, and he said they balanced props statically.  Thanks for your response. 	


A local FBO did it. Cruisair in Ramona. Most large FBO's have the capability to dynamically balance, it's fairly common for spam cans. A warning, though. It's expensive, (~$200,) and I noticed little difference. I think if you do a really good and conscientious static balance you'll be fine.



  Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. [quote][b]    [quote][b]

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