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180 turns

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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:37 am Post subject: 180 turns

William Harrison a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		    John Brownlow, who did my conversion training for the Europa, 

 told/showed me that you can do a safe 180 turn back from 300 feet 

 (much lower than for many types). I practised a few times. I think 

 I'll practise a few more times.

William and all,
	




Sorry to hear about this sad loss.



The first thing an instructor shows, is that it takes more than a 180 to 

turn back to the runway : it is safe to assume it takes one 270 degree 

turn in one direction, and 90 degrees in the other direction to land 

back on the same runway. 360 degrees total. You also need some height to 

straighten the wings and flare.



360 degrees is twice what many pilots feel is necessary, hence the 

dramatic turn of events when they realize they still have lots of 

distance to travel to make the intended threshold. Most "turn back" 

crashes occur AT THE END of the maneuver, when the ground is rushing 

toward you at 1000 ft/min, and you are below tree tops, and still trying 

to make that out-of-reach runway.



Of course, if you are far enough, you can replace this 270+90 by 

something somewhat resembling a tear drop. But if you are far enough 

from the runway, you also have height and time to make sound decisions.



The second thing we show our students, is how much height it takes to 

perform a power-off full 360 from a climb attitude at slow speed, with 

flaps down and prop in fine pitch. 300 feet seems very low, especially 

considering some Europas have less than gentle stall characteristics in 

a turn, as evoked in last year postings.



I suggest Europa pilots do the maneuver (at a safe altitude) and report 

the recorded loss of height for the education of us all.



My sympathy and thoughts go out to the families and friends.

Regards,

-- 

Gilles Thesee

http://contrails.free.fr

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: 180 turns

What happens when you stall a Europa in a turn?



--

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:42 am Post subject: 180 turns

To a degree it depends on the direction of the turn and whether flaps up or 

down.



Most Europas tend to stall one wing down (ours is to the left). This can be 

minimised by using stall strips but they cause other problems.



Most likely outcome is a spin or incipient. This will by accompanied by a 

considerable loss in height.



It is also dependent on the method of recovery used. Inexperienced pilots 

try and recover an incipient spin with ailerons - its an instinctive 

reaction. This will make the situation worse and may cause a spiral dive.



But then everyone knows you should use rudder to correct a spin - dont they?



I have deliberately stalled a Europa in a turn and it is interesting (at 

4,000ft !!!) - you definitely lose a lot of height.



---

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:58 am Post subject: 180 turns

Ok forgive my ignorance but what effect do stall strips have?



(I think) I know that they stall the root first...but then what happens?



I remember reading a book by I think chuck yeager or one of his buddies who

said that the mustang used to snap roll when stalled in a turn...



--

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:09 am Post subject: 180 turns

William Daniell a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		    what effect do stall strips have?



 (I think) I know that they stall the root first...but then what happens?

   


	


That's correct.

You get plenty of warning  prior to the stall, and even if you get into 

the stall you maintain roll control.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I remember reading a book by I think chuck yeager or one of his buddies who

 said that the mustang used to snap roll when stalled in a turn...


	


Most light airplanes give plenty of warning, are reluctant to stall in a 

turn, and if really obliged to, gently lower the upper wing, regaining a 

wing level attitude.

Some homebuilts are not so well behaved, often due to discrepancies in 

wing rigging.

All the above assuming the slip ball is reasonably centered....

Otherwise, you may enter a spin, and MANY light aircraft might snap 

towards the lower wing....



Regards,

-- 

Gilles Thesee

http://contrails.free.fr

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:15 am Post subject: 180 turns

If there is any twist in the wings , one is likely to stall before the other 

causing a wing drop and then a spin.



The stall strips are used to ensure both wings stall at the same time. I 

believe they also cause pre stall buffet, warning the pilot of an impending 

stall.



Thats the theory anyway.



We dont have them fitted so cant comment any further - do have a stall 

warner though.

---

riddon(at)sent.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:16 am Post subject: 180 turns

I intentionally tried it last year. The airplane flipped completely

inverted then ended up pointing at the ground. Fortunately I was at

6000ft. at the time so had ample time to pull out but I lost the best

part of 1000ft. 



Richard Iddon G-RIXS

--

g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: 180 turns

After last years accident I had a number of long discussions with my

very experience instructor.  So one afternoon she suggested we go out

and do everything we had been talking about (at a safe 4000 ft).



Deliberately stalling G-IANI in a 60 degree turn proved to be a non

event in terms of any sort of wing drop or roll.  But you do loose a lot

of height VERY quickly.



Later the instructor did the same tests in G-IRON, which is not quite as

well behaved in a straight stall, again with no drama and simple

recovery.



Ian Rickard  #505 G-IANI XS Trigear

Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)

e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk   

   or direct g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:45 am Post subject: 180 Turns

In a message dated 6/20/2007 2:58:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  europa-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low    height 

will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500    feet and 

the only safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90    degree 

turn may be possible if the field is large  enough. 	
  

 Hello Carl,

  

 Here on this side of the pond we glider pilots are required to  demonstrate two simulated rope breaks at each biannual flight review. In my  training days and subsequent biannual reviews since, I've had to  demonstrate dozens of these maneuvers. Having experienced a release failure  on take off I can tell you that the simulated rope break is almost like the real  thing. There is never any warning, other than you know it will happen  twice at some point in the review. The instructor, who sits in the  back seat out of view, just yanks the release and you are off to the races. The  only real warning you get is if you happen to see the release handle coming back  just before the rope goes away.

  

 The simulated rope break is generally done at or slightly above 200'  agl after take off. The recovery procedure is quite simple, but it takes a  clear thinking mind, confidence in the performance of the aircraft, and  some practice to execute the maneuver correctly. You also have to act  and act immediately.  What we are taught is to perform a "dog bone" or  "tear drop" turn. Essentially, it's a shallow turn of about 30 degrees in  one direction using the speed left over from the tow. Then, a steeper, more nose  down turn of 210 degrees in the other direction to get lined up with  the runway. You always want to make the 210 degree turn as much into the  wind as possible. The direction of the turn(s) depends on the wind direction.   This maneuver is easy to do, even in low performance trainers and  I've always had to apply large amounts of spoiler and or a heavy slip to get  back down and stopped without overshooting the runway. Below 200' we  are taught to blow full spoilers and land straight ahead.

  

 What gets people into trouble in this situation, and on the downwind to  base and base to final turns, is the tendency to "rudder" the airplane around.  This tendency, coupled with a high nose angle, makes the turn uncoordinated,  slowing the inside wing to the point of stalling and is what  leads to stall/spin crashes on approach. This is a major cause of both glider  accidents and power plane accidents on landing. I think this is very likely what  happened to Cliff and Betty Shaw, and was probably exaggerated because they were  loaded with baggage and possibly had an aft C of G.

  

 With all this said, and having practiced the dog bone maneuver in  N245E, I don't think I could do this maneuver in my Europa from less than  about 400' in the best of conditions and safely return to the runway. Since I  fly regularly out of 2200' surrounded by trees, I don't have a lot of  options. I get the flaps up within about 10 seconds of breaking ground and  keep the nose down to accelerate in ground effect to slightly above  the best rate of climb until I'm over the trees, then slow to best rate of  climb to pattern altitude, then I usually go to cruise climb. With this  method, if the engine quits at 400' or higher I'll have 75 -80 kts to work  with. Depending on the wind, with the extra speed I would likely return to  the runway. If the engine quits at 200'-400', with the extra speed I can  easily get over the trees and into the next field. Might not be a pretty  landing, but certainly better than taking an "arboreal adventure".

  

 I think the key here is practice, practice, practice! Every pilot,  regardless of how much air time you have accumulated, should take some  glider lessons if you haven't already. Get used to flying an airplane without an  engine. Learn how to conserve energy and translate energy and  altitude to airspeed. Better yet, go ahead and get your glider rating.  It's a whole lot of fun and it'll make you a much better, more coordinated  and confident pilot. You'll be much more prepared when (not if)   the engine goes quiet. It'll be a little less of "oh shit, the engine  quit" and a little more of "oh well, I'm in a glider again" situation.

  

 Regards,

  

 John Lawton

 Dunlap, TN (TN89)

 N245E - Flying

 

  



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:53 am Post subject: Re: 180 turns

If I recall my discussion with Andy Draper correctly, the negative

effects of stall strips is a minor increase in stall speed and a minor decrease

in cruise speed.



Stall strips do not alter pre-stall buffet.  Buffet is due to delaminated, 

turbulent flow off the stalled wing hitting the elevator.

_________________
Ira N224XS

jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: 180 Turns

Do not arcive

  

 John-

  

 You're right on.  At our old airport in Illinois, we required at least a glider solo for anyone who wanted to learn how to fly.  In most cases, they finished the glider rating before transitioning to power.  If I had my way, that would be required of all pilots.  We have a 3 foot piece of tow rope framed and on the wall in our bedroom.  My wife had a break at 200 feet on her first solo in a 2-33.  We were towing with a Bird Dog that we found had a miscalibrated ASI and the break was caused by towing her too fast.  She was able to convert the extra airspeed to altitude and got to about 400 feet before putting the nose down and turning.  We asked her if she wanted to get out of the airplane after she landed and she elected to stay in it unitl we replaced the rope.  She said later that the reason she wanted to stay is that she could not have stood up if she got out. I'm sure the situation would   be muc h more difficult in winch launch where the angle of attack is very high.    

  

 Jim Puglise A-283

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com 

  In a message dated 6/20/2007 2:58:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Glider pilots who have practiced winch failures at such a low height 

will know that 180 degree turns are killers. Anything under 500 feet and 

the only safe option is to land sraight ahead - sometimes a 90 degree 

turn may be possible if the field is large enough. 	
  

 Hello Carl,

  

 Here on this side of the pond we glider pilots are required to demonstrate two simulated rope breaks at each biannual flight review. In my training days and subsequent biannual reviews since, I've had to demonstrate dozens of these maneuvers. Having experienced a release failure on take off I can tell you that the simulated rope break is almost like the real thing. There is never any warning, other than you know it will happen twice at some point in the review. The instructor, who sits in the back seat out of view, just yanks the release and you are off to the races. The only real warning you get is if you happen to see the release handle coming back just before the rope goes away.

  

 The simulated rope break is generally done at or slightly above 200' agl after take off. The recovery procedure is quite simple, but it takes a clear thinking mind, confidence in the performance of the aircraft, and some practice to execute the maneuver correctly. You also have to act and act immediately.  What we are taught is to perform a "dog bone" or "tear drop" turn. Essentially, it's a shallow turn of about 30 degrees in one direction using the speed left over from the tow. Then, a steeper, more nose down turn of 210 degrees in the other direction to get lined up with the runway. You always want to make the 210 degree turn as much into the wind as possible. The direction of the turn(s) depends on the wind direction.  This maneuver is easy to do, even in low performance trainers and I've always had to apply large amounts of spoiler and or a heavy slip to get back down and stopped without overshooting t  he run way. Below 200' we are taught to blow full spoilers and land straight ahead.

  

 What gets people into trouble in this situation, and on the downwind to base and base to final turns, is the tendency to "rudder" the airplane around. This tendency, coupled with a high nose angle, makes the turn uncoordinated, slowing the inside wing to the point of stalling and is what leads to stall/spin crashes on approach. This is a major cause of both glider accidents and power plane accidents on landing. I think this is very likely what happened to Cliff and Betty Shaw, and was probably exaggerated because they were loaded with baggage and possibly had an aft C of G.

  

 With all this said, and having practiced the dog bone maneuver in N245E, I don't think I could do this maneuver in my Europa from less than about 400' in the best of conditions and safely return to the runway. Since I fly regularly out of 2200' surrounded by trees, I don't have a lot of options. I get the flaps up within about 10 seconds of breaking ground and keep the nose down to accelerate in ground effect to slightly above the best rate of climb until I'm over the trees, then slow to best rate of climb to pattern altitude, then I usually go to cruise climb. With this method, if the engine quits at 400' or higher I'll have 75 -80 kts to work with. Depending on the wind, with the extra speed I would likely return to the runway. If the engine quits at 200'-400', with the extra speed I can easily get over the trees and into the next field. Might not be a pretty landing, but certainly better than taking an "arboreal adventure".  

   

 I think the key here is practice, practice, practice! Every pilot, regardless of how much air time you have accumulated, should take some glider lessons if you haven't already. Get used to flying an airplane without an engine. Learn how to conserve energy and translate energy and altitude to airspeed. Better yet, go ahead and get your glider rating. It's a whole lot of fun and it'll make you a much better, more coordinated and confident pilot. You'll be much more prepared when (not if)  the engine goes quiet. It'll be a little less of "oh shit, the engine quit" and a little more of "oh well, I'm in a glider again" situation.

  

 Regards,

  

 John Lawton

 Dunlap, TN (TN89)

 N245E - Flying

  

  



   See what's free at AOL.com. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:29 am Post subject: 180 Turns

John, It's worth perhaps making the point that trees make a fairly

reasonable place to land in an emergency. Over 90% of those force landing in

trees survive - beats landing in a housing estate or spinning into hard

ground. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:35 pm Post subject: 180 turns

Ira

I agree. I don't believe buffet is any good as a stall warning anyway 

because in the typical scenario of high workload and difficult urgent 

decision making the pilot won't notice the buffet.

Stall strips properly adjusted make the stall less agressive and 

recovery easier.

Graham



List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 If I recall my discussion with Andy Draper correctly, the negative

 effects of stall strips is a minor increase in stall speed and a minor decrease

 in cruise speed.

 

 Stall strips do not alter pre-stall buffet.  Buffet is due to delaminated, 

 turbulent flow off the stalled wing hitting the elevator.

 

 --------

 Ira N224XS

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119628#119628

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


	


-- 

Graham Singleton



Tel: +441629820187

Mob: +447739582005

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: 180 turns

Ah again displaying my ignorance..."properly adjusted stall strips".  How do

you go about adjusting them?



--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: 180 turns

William

I wouldn't call it ignorance! There is no such thing as a silly 

question.  (unless you already know the answer)

First set up the stall strips to the factory spec which I think is in 

the Owners Manual (?)

If one wing drops consistently raise the stall strip on the other wing 

in small increments until both wings drop at the same time.

You could raise both stall strips to achieve a gentle mush at the stall 

but there will be a performance price to pay, as already someone said, 

increased minimum speed.

Graham



William Daniell wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Ah again displaying my ignorance..."properly adjusted stall strips".  How do

 you go about adjusting them?

asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: 180 turns

This has been an interesting discussion. At some airports a 180 turn

back and the possibility of making the runway (however remote it may

be) might look awfully tempting compared to the near certainty of

slamming against the sea of concrete and glass in front of you. I felt

this way every time I departed from Chicago Midway and Toronto

Buttonville. Take a look on your google maps. It would be a real tough

choice to make if the fan quits.

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject: 180 turns

Hi! William D

There should be a template of the wing profile in the appendix of your

build manual which when produced in strong cardboard will provisionally

locate the stall strip position to enable flight testing to fine tune

the final fixing point. Mine shake the aircraft but good at the

appropriate time, busy making decisions or not you couldn't ignore it!

Regards

Bob H G-PTAG

--

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