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Troubleshooting a MAG drop.

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Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: Troubleshooting a MAG drop.

Guys, I just wanted to share my recent experience of trouble shooting a MAG drop I was having on my RV-10.



	I was flying back from my Canada trip and finished the first two legs without any issue.  On my final leg I did the usual engine run-up to 1900 RPM and checked the MAG's.  Right side dropped the usual 60-80 RPM while the Left dropped 120 RPM and the engine started to run rough.  I leaned the crap out of it on the ground and it got a little better, so I decided to fly the last leg anyway.  When I got back on the ground after running it for 2 hours LOP, I checked the MAG's before shutdown, and it was still dropping and running rough on the Left MAG.



	My friend, Brian Reiter came over and we pulled/cleaned/gapped the plugs because we were heading to Oshkosh the next day in the RV10.  We also swapped the top plugs to the bottom and the bottom to the top.  My plugs are all Unison UREM38E.  The plugs did not look bad at all.  After doing all of this, the MAG drop issue was gone.  We flew to Osh, had a great time, and flew back and no problems with MAG drops.  Then after putting another 3 hours on the plane, the MAG drops started on the Right MAG (notice before it was the Left MAG, but now the plugs were switched top for bottom).  Now I started asking questions and tracing the MAG wires to the Plugs and this is what I learned.



	 Right MAG runs the Top Plugs for Cylinder #1, 3, 5 and the Bottom Plugs for Cylinder #2, 4, 6.



	Left MAG runs the Top Plugs of Cylinder #2, 4, 6 and the Bottom Plugs for Cylinder #1, 3, 5.



	With this info, I knew which ones to start looking at.  I had just cleaned all the top plugs again, since originally I thought the Right MAG ran all the Top Plugs (NOT), and they were all spotless.  Then since the Right MAG also ran the Bottom plugs of Cylinder #2, 4, 6, I cleaned them again (in an ultrasonic bath) and they were spotless, the gap was fine.  I re-installed the plugs with new copper washers and the Right MAG was still dropping 120 RPM and running rough.  Time to go home for the day.



	The next evening, I thought why not start the engine, then immediately switch to the right MAG and watch the Temps on Dynon Engine Monitor to see which cylinder isn't firing.  This was the trick, by starting the engine and immediately switching to the bad MAG, it didn't let the EGT's get very hot while the key-switch was on BOTH after starting.  Now I observed the EGT of 5 of the cylinders were at 1200 degrees and climbing while my number #2 Cylinder was at 600 degrees and dropping (because this Clyinder was not firing when only on one MAG).



	Now that I knew #2 Bottom Plug was bad (285 hours on it), I change it out and my problem was resolved.  I then went back and looked at the plug again, and most people I showed it to couldn't see anything wrong with it, but the porclin insulator inside the plug had a black residue (about the size of a pencil eraser end) on the wall about half way down.  This plug was arcing across from the spring to the outer shell through the insulator instead of at the tip of the plug.



	I learned a lot during all of this, like which MAG runs what Plugs and that having an Engine Monitor on all Cylinders for CHT and EGT is an awesome troubleshooting tool as well.  Anyway I thought I would share this with others that may not have grown up with these Engines either.



Thank You

Ray Doerr

40250

N519RV (Hobbs 95)

marc(at)kitplanes.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: Troubleshooting a MAG drop.

Great post. In fact, I don't really watch the actual mag drop in rpm  

anymore, but instead just look for each cylinder's EGT to rise during  

one-mag operation. That tells me 98% of what I want to know.



--Marc

do not archive



On Aug 9, 2007, at 6:16 AM, Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com>



 	Guys, I just wanted to share my recent experience of trouble  

 shooting a MAG drop I was having on my RV-10.



 	[snip]



 	The next evening, I thought why not start the engine, then  

 immediately switch to the right MAG and watch the Temps on Dynon  

 Engine Monitor to see which cylinder isn't firing.  This was the  

 trick, by starting the engine and immediately switching to the bad  

 MAG, it didn't let the EGT's get very hot while the key-switch was  

 on BOTH after starting.  Now I observed the EGT of 5 of the  

 cylinders were at 1200 degrees and climbing while my number #2  

 Cylinder was at 600 degrees and dropping (because this Clyinder was  

 not firing when only on one MAG).



 	Now that I knew #2 Bottom Plug was bad (285 hours on it), I change  

 it out and my problem was resolved.  I then went back and looked at  

 the plug again, and most people I showed it to couldn't see  

 anything wrong with it, but the porclin insulator inside the plug  

 had a black residue (about the size of a pencil eraser end) on the  

 wall about half way down.  This plug was arcing across from the  

 spring to the outer shell through the insulator instead of at the  

 tip of the plug.



 	I learned a lot during all of this, like which MAG runs what Plugs  

 and that having an Engine Monitor on all Cylinders for CHT and EGT  

 is an awesome troubleshooting tool as well.  Anyway I thought I  

 would share this with others that may not have grown up with these  

 Engines either.



 Thank You

 Ray Doerr

 40250

 N519RV (Hobbs 95)

n212pj(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:23 am Post subject: Troubleshooting a MAG drop.

Nice post, Ray, and nice sleuthing.  



John J  #40328



do not archive 



--

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: Troubleshooting a MAG drop.

I love hearing about these type of events! THANKS for taking the time to 

post this. For me it was very educational and well within the context 

and framework of what I've come to hope for and expect from the RV10 

community. GOOD Job !. For most of us still building, the events that 

can/will occur when flying are still unknown, and tips and experience 

like this related goes a long way to keeping the 'fleet' healthy.



Deems Davis

#406



:"it;s all done.... just not put together yet!"

 of keeping us a



Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 	Guys, I just wanted to share my recent experience of trouble shooting a MAG drop I was having on my RV-10.



 	I was flying back from my Canada trip and finished the first two legs without any issue.  On my final leg I did the usual engine run-up to 1900 RPM and checked the MAG's.  Right side dropped the usual 60-80 RPM while the Left dropped 120 RPM and the engine started to run rough.  I leaned the crap out of it on the ground and it got a little better, so I decided to fly the last leg anyway.  When I got back on the ground after running it for 2 hours LOP, I checked the MAG's before shutdown, and it was still dropping and running rough on the Left MAG.



 	My friend, Brian Reiter came over and we pulled/cleaned/gapped the plugs because we were heading to Oshkosh the next day in the RV10.  We also swapped the top plugs to the bottom and the bottom to the top.  My plugs are all Unison UREM38E.  The plugs did not look bad at all.  After doing all of this, the MAG drop issue was gone.  We flew to Osh, had a great time, and flew back and no problems with MAG drops.  Then after putting another 3 hours on the plane, the MAG drops started on the Right MAG (notice before it was the Left MAG, but now the plugs were switched top for bottom).  Now I started asking questions and tracing the MAG wires to the Plugs and this is what I learned.



 	 Right MAG runs the Top Plugs for Cylinder #1, 3, 5 and the Bottom Plugs for Cylinder #2, 4, 6.



 	Left MAG runs the Top Plugs of Cylinder #2, 4, 6 and the Bottom Plugs for Cylinder #1, 3, 5.



 	With this info, I knew which ones to start looking at.  I had just cleaned all the top plugs again, since originally I thought the Right MAG ran all the Top Plugs (NOT), and they were all spotless.  Then since the Right MAG also ran the Bottom plugs of Cylinder #2, 4, 6, I cleaned them again (in an ultrasonic bath) and they were spotless, the gap was fine.  I re-installed the plugs with new copper washers and the Right MAG was still dropping 120 RPM and running rough.  Time to go home for the day.



 	The next evening, I thought why not start the engine, then immediately switch to the right MAG and watch the Temps on Dynon Engine Monitor to see which cylinder isn't firing.  This was the trick, by starting the engine and immediately switching to the bad MAG, it didn't let the EGT's get very hot while the key-switch was on BOTH after starting.  Now I observed the EGT of 5 of the cylinders were at 1200 degrees and climbing while my number #2 Cylinder was at 600 degrees and dropping (because this Clyinder was not firing when only on one MAG).



 	Now that I knew #2 Bottom Plug was bad (285 hours on it), I change it out and my problem was resolved.  I then went back and looked at the plug again, and most people I showed it to couldn't see anything wrong with it, but the porclin insulator inside the plug had a black residue (about the size of a pencil eraser end) on the wall about half way down.  This plug was arcing across from the spring to the outer shell through the insulator instead of at the tip of the plug.



 	I learned a lot during all of this, like which MAG runs what Plugs and that having an Engine Monitor on all Cylinders for CHT and EGT is an awesome troubleshooting tool as well.  Anyway I thought I would share this with others that may not have grown up with these Engines either.



 Thank You

 Ray Doerr

 40250

 N519RV (Hobbs 95)

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: Troubleshooting a MAG drop.

Ray

Great write up and outstanding technical troubleshooting. These types of

stories should be collected and archived so that we all can learn from

each others experiences. I have heard many people having this same

problem and spending large amounts of money to get it corrected. Nice,

easy and well thought out solution.

THX for sharing 

Dan

N289DT RV10E Flying 



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: Troubleshooting a MAG drop.

Awesome that you took the time to write that up Ray, you did just great

on your troubleshooting.



What I've learned over the past years is that the RPM drop is usually

(not always) pretty irrelevant to the run-up, but more importantly

that you're getting near normal RPM's, and that it runs smooth, and

especially that you don't see any cylinders dropping in EGT with the

mag off.



You're absolutely correct that on a 2-mag system the system is wired

so that the plugs are split top and bottom across the mags, so it isn't

as simple as Right mag on top, Left on bottom, or vice versa...it's all

mixed up as you listed below.  But, for those of us who have Lightspeed

ignitions, normally we're set up so that the top plugs are the

automotive plugs, and those are run by the Right mag (which is actually

the LSE), so the Left mag runs all the bottom plugs.  It's perhaps

a simpler layout, but either should be easy to troubleshoot.



Your plug failure was one of those fairly rare occurances, but proves

that you must inspect the entire plug.  It would be interesting to

hear if you've ever dropped the plug, because I've heard that if you

drop an aviation plug, you are best off just throwing it away. (not

insinuating that you did, just illustrating how important it is for

everyone to be careful with your plugs)  The most common failure I've

seen (not on my RV-10) is to see a pile of crusty lava looking gunk

in the lower plugs, down at the base of the insulator.  All that

fouling eventually piles up until it shorts or runs bad.  It should

be fully cleaned out perhaps every 50-100 hours when you yank the

plugs. (Tip: Buy the el-cheapo Harbor freight spark plug bead-blasting

cleaner and it works great after you chip some of the stuff manually)



My most recent troubleshooting was when a nice young lady (it's

always nice to help those.  ) came to our airport and after

parking all day, had a rough running engine.  Nobody was around

at the FBO to help, and she got on the cell phone (constantly) to

call the people back at her flying club or FBO for advice.

I told her I could help troubleshoot the glass-cockpit equipped

piper and bet we could find the problem quickly.  All I had to

do was have her run it up and do a mag drop.  When she selected

one of the mags, the EGT on one cylinder dropped way down to

nothing....ah ha, then you know the plug and the mag, right away.

Although those on the phone were unsure they should trust

a goofy looking chubby bald guy with their plane, she let me

pull the plug and we found just a tiny salt-grain sized piece

of stuff between the center and side electrodes.  I cleaned the

plug thoroughly, put on a new gasket and anti-seize, and it

was installed and running great in minutes and she and the

club was very greatful when she arrived safely home.



The moral of the story is, we have a HUGE benefit over our

normal certificated brothers in that we can install some of

the nicest engine monitoring equipment around, that would cost

a lot for them to install.  Using that equipment makes

troubleshooting such problems a breeze.  Also, in reading a

recent article about TAA (Technically Advanced Aircraft) it was

stated that one area where TAA's have virtually dropped a common

problem out of existence is fuel starvation problems, all because

of the fuel totalizer and integrated flight range displays.



Anyway, sorry for being long, but you did a great job identifying

the issues and opened the door to educating a lot of people,

so that's a great story for you to share.



PS: Always carry a spare plug (I carry one of each type).



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 	Guys, I just wanted to share my recent experience of trouble shooting a MAG drop I was having on my RV-10.

 

 	I was flying back from my Canada trip and finished the first two legs without any issue.  On my final leg I did the usual engine run-up to 1900 RPM and checked the MAG's.  Right side dropped the usual 60-80 RPM while the Left dropped 120 RPM and the engine started to run rough.  I leaned the crap out of it on the ground and it got a little better, so I decided to fly the last leg anyway.  When I got back on the ground after running it for 2 hours LOP, I checked the MAG's before shutdown, and it was still dropping and running rough on the Left MAG.

 

 	My friend, Brian Reiter came over and we pulled/cleaned/gapped the plugs because we were heading to Oshkosh the next day in the RV10.  We also swapped the top plugs to the bottom and the bottom to the top.  My plugs are all Unison UREM38E.  The plugs did not look bad at all.  After doing all of this, the MAG drop issue was gone.  We flew to Osh, had a great time, and flew back and no problems with MAG drops.  Then after putting another 3 hours on the plane, the MAG drops started on the Right MAG (notice before it was the Left MAG, but now the plugs were switched top for bottom).  Now I started asking questions and tracing the MAG wires to the Plugs and this is what I learned.

 

 	 Right MAG runs the Top Plugs for Cylinder #1, 3, 5 and the Bottom Plugs for Cylinder #2, 4, 6.

 

 	Left MAG runs the Top Plugs of Cylinder #2, 4, 6 and the Bottom Plugs for Cylinder #1, 3, 5.

 

 	With this info, I knew which ones to start looking at.  I had just cleaned all the top plugs again, since originally I thought the Right MAG ran all the Top Plugs (NOT), and they were all spotless.  Then since the Right MAG also ran the Bottom plugs of Cylinder #2, 4, 6, I cleaned them again (in an ultrasonic bath) and they were spotless, the gap was fine.  I re-installed the plugs with new copper washers and the Right MAG was still dropping 120 RPM and running rough.  Time to go home for the day.

 

 	The next evening, I thought why not start the engine, then immediately switch to the right MAG and watch the Temps on Dynon Engine Monitor to see which cylinder isn't firing.  This was the trick, by starting the engine and immediately switching to the bad MAG, it didn't let the EGT's get very hot while the key-switch was on BOTH after starting.  Now I observed the EGT of 5 of the cylinders were at 1200 degrees and climbing while my number #2 Cylinder was at 600 degrees and dropping (because this Clyinder was not firing when only on one MAG).

 

 	Now that I knew #2 Bottom Plug was bad (285 hours on it), I change it out and my problem was resolved.  I then went back and looked at the plug again, and most people I showed it to couldn't see anything wrong with it, but the porclin insulator inside the plug had a black residue (about the size of a pencil eraser end) on the wall about half way down.  This plug was arcing across from the spring to the outer shell through the insulator instead of at the tip of the plug.

 

 	I learned a lot during all of this, like which MAG runs what Plugs and that having an Engine Monitor on all Cylinders for CHT and EGT is an awesome troubleshooting tool as well.  Anyway I thought I would share this with others that may not have grown up with these Engines either.

 

 

 

 Thank You

 Ray Doerr

 40250

 N519RV (Hobbs 95)

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:44 am Post subject: Troubleshooting a MAG drop.

This is a common failure mode for plugs that got dropped.  I got some 

advice on what to do with dropped plugs.  If you drop a plug, pick it up 

and drop it again ...... real hard ...... and then trash it.  Don't 

re-use a plug that's been dropped.  I don't anymore.

Linn

do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		  

--> <Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com>



	Guys, I just wanted to share my recent experience of trouble

shooting a MAG drop I was having on my RV-10.



	I was flying back from my Canada trip and finished the first two

legs without any issue.  On my final leg I did the usual engine run-up to

1900 RPM and checked the MAG's.  Right side dropped the usual 60-80 RPM

while the Left dropped 120 RPM and the engine started to run rough.  I

leaned the crap out of it on the ground and it got a little better, so I

decided to fly the last leg anyway.  When I got back on the ground after

running it for 2 hours LOP, I checked the MAG's before shutdown, and it was

still dropping and running rough on the Left MAG.



	My friend, Brian Reiter came over and we pulled/cleaned/gapped the

plugs because we were heading to Oshkosh the next day in the RV10.  We also

swapped the top plugs to the bottom and the bottom to the top.  My plugs are

all Unison UREM38E.  The plugs did not look bad at all.  After doing all of

this, the MAG drop issue was gone.  We flew to Osh, had a great time, and

flew back and no problems with MAG drops.  Then after putting another 3

hours on the plane, the MAG drops started on the Right MAG (notice before it

was the Left MAG, but now the plugs were switched top for bottom).  Now I

started asking questions and tracing the MAG wires to the Plugs and this is

what I learned.



	 Right MAG runs the Top Plugs for Cylinder #1, 3, 5 and the Bottom

Plugs for Cylinder #2, 4, 6.



	Left MAG runs the Top Plugs of Cylinder #2, 4, 6 and the Bottom

Plugs for Cylinder #1, 3, 5.



	With this info, I knew which ones to start looking at.  I had just

cleaned all the top plugs again, since originally I thought the Right MAG

ran all the Top Plugs (NOT), and they were all spotless.  Then since the

Right MAG also ran the Bottom plugs of Cylinder #2, 4, 6, I cleaned them

again (in an ultrasonic bath) and they were spotless, the gap was fine.  I

re-installed the plugs with new copper washers and the Right MAG was still

dropping 120 RPM and running rough.  Time to go home for the day.



	The next evening, I thought why not start the engine, then

immediately switch to the right MAG and watch the Temps on Dynon Engine

Monitor to see which cylinder isn't firing.  This was the trick, by starting

the engine and immediately switching to the bad MAG, it didn't let the EGT's

get very hot while the key-switch was on BOTH after starting.  Now I

observed the EGT of 5 of the cylinders were at 1200 degrees and climbing

while my number #2 Cylinder was at 600 degrees and dropping (because this

Clyinder was not firing when only on one MAG).



	Now that I knew #2 Bottom Plug was bad (285 hours on it), I change

it out and my problem was resolved.  I then went back and looked at the plug

again, and most people I showed it to couldn't see anything wrong with it,

but the porclin insulator inside the plug had a black residue (about the

size of a pencil eraser end) on the wall about half way down.  This plug was

arcing across from the spring to the outer shell through the insulator

instead of at the tip of the plug.



	I learned a lot during all of this, like which MAG runs what Plugs

and that having an Engine Monitor on all Cylinders for CHT and EGT is an

awesome troubleshooting tool as well.  Anyway I thought I would share this

with others that may not have grown up with these Engines either.



Thank You

Ray Doerr

40250

N519RV (Hobbs 95)

Dick Sipp

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Hope, MI

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: Troubleshooting a MAG drop.

Good job Ray,



On the old RV-4, my standard practice was to switch the engine monitor to 

the expanded/normalized EGT mode for the runup and mag check.  Normal 

indication on ether single mag by itself would be a relatively uniform rise 

in all EGTs due to slower combustion process with one ignition source.  Any 

abnormal cylinder becomes readily apparent.



With a single electronic ignition, the change will not be as dramatic but 

should still register.



Dick Sipp

RV10 N110DV

KiloPapa

Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Pearblossom, CA

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:07 am Post subject: Troubleshooting a MAG drop.

Very nice write-up.  Thanks.



Kevin

40494

tail/empennage



do not archive



---

_________________
Kevin
40494

do not archive

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: Troubleshooting a MAG drop.

Excellent post on the problem, troubleshooting and eventual solution.



Everyone should remember the little ditty from Champion at OSH and that

I first learned in A&P school.  "Drop it Once, Drop it twice!" The

second time into the trash.  



These plugs are expensive and there is a desire to shrug off the slight

shock which can contribute to a cracked insulator.  Your's was probably

not from handling, installation or shipping, just bad luck.  



The second point is that the copper crush rings should be installed New

each time.  Being cheap, many mechanics will recycle them which Champion

says creates a 0.004" movement of the plug deeper into the combustion

chamber.  Cracked heads are more expensive than the crush rings.



Fly Often, Fly Safe, Live Long



John



--

ddddsp1(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: Troubleshooting a MAG drop.

John, 

I have a question on the copper washers for the plugs...............an ole A&P told me you can clean them,  heat them up, and reuse them?   Any truth to that?  I know it is best to replace them as they cost very little.  .......for airplane parts!   

DEAN 



________________________________________________________________________

 /2-2125045-32">Get Juno DSL - the easier, safer broadband!



    [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: Troubleshooting a MAG drop.

One of my oldest IA buddies would always collect them and then anneal them (In mass) so they became more supple and malleable.  I was taught to discard and use new.  They are not unreasonably expensive when purchased in quantities of 100.  

   

The Champion sparkplug seminar confirmed the annealing process but countered that each time they are compressed they not only harden (reason for annealing), but they flatten out – never to retain the original “build height”.  With higher performance engines (you be the judge) the reuse of pre-used copper crush rings were allowing the plug to extend into the combustion cylinder and hinder the event.  Results ranges from Detonation to cracked heads radiating from the sparkplug hole.  

   

On lower compression engines I have seen widespread use of the annealing process and yes, I do collect the discarded ones.  

   

Another important technique is to use the correct tools to adjust the gap.  Use the wrong tool and you will crack the insulator.  

   

Just repeating what they showed at the Champion OSH seminar.  

   

I will always use “New” with my paying customers and as an EAA Tech, I can only share information for mass distribution that is not my typical wild A%% speculation.  Kelly, help me out here….  

   

John Cox  

EAA #5242        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ddddsp1(at)juno.com

 Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 12:12 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: Troubleshooting a MAG drop.  

  

   

John,  

I have a question on the copper washers for the plugs...............an ole A&P told me you can clean them,  heat them up, and reuse them?   Any truth to that?  I know it is best to replace them as they cost very little.  .......for airplane parts!    

DEAN  



 

 ________________________________________________________________________

 /2-2125045-32">Get Juno DSL - the easier, safer broadband!  [quote]   [b]

n223rv(at)wolflakeairport
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: Troubleshooting a MAG drop.

Maybe  I'm wrong, but I have never replaced mine..... in my Cherokee for 5 years and in  my RV-4 for 5 years.....  Just clean them off and re-torque the  plugs.  Never seen an exhaust leak around them....

  

 Your  mileage may vary, maybe I've just been lucky...

 -Mike

 [quote]   

   --

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: Troubleshooting a MAG drop.

Wellllll, for a long time annealing was a time honored chance to play with

your torch, make things glow cherry red and warm things up a bit in a cold

hangar. However, today, copper scrap is worth so much you maybe get more for

selling them than reusing.

I personally doubt there is any significant flattening of the washers unless

you use the upper limit of the torque spec and like using your breaker bar

with cheater to see whether you can get the helicoil out with the plugs or

not. Personally, I don't care what TCM and Lyc say...I'm not going over 25

ft.lbs on a plug, period. It is plenty, still takes a lot of force to remove

the plug, etc.

What I do see is the washers dishing a bit...so put the concave side toward

the cylinder to reverse that. Nary a problem doing it that way for 32 years

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