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VW PROPELLER SIZE ADVICE NEEDED- 601HDS

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hills(at)sunflower.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:24 am Post subject: VW PROPELLER SIZE ADVICE NEEDED- 601HDS

Howdy all;



I bought a 601hds  a few months ago and have been flying it.  I think I have

the wrong size propeller though, and I was hoping some of you might have

some advise as it is very slow and only climbs at about 600fpm.



The plane came with a New Great plains 2180cc engine, with 9:1 compression.

It should produce about 80 hp.  It has a aerovee carb and fuel pump

regulated to  psi.



The propeller is a Warniki 52x44 prop.  On the ground it turns 3500 rpm.  In

the air, it turns 3600 (or a little more), and you have to throttle back

quit a bit to see 3400 rpm.  At 3400 rpm, it cruise at only 95mph, top speed

is less than 100.

I heard that these hds taper wing planes should go 120-140 mph, I dont have

wheel pants or gear fairings (its a tri-gear), but 95 seems very slow.  I

think the prop might be too small, but everyone I ask tells me it needs a

different size.  Some say a 62x42 (that sounds to big to me), great planes

says use a 60x29 (but a 29 pitch has a pitch speed of 90 mph, so I dont see

how it could make the plane go faster)

What do you all think?



Thanks



Roger Hill

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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: VW PROPELLER SIZE ADVICE NEEDED- 601HDS

Hi Roger,



There is a really neat prop calculator on the web at: 

http://www.culverprops.com/pitchselection.htm



I would be glad to play with it to choose an exact prop for your 

engine, but I don't know enough about your engine to do it.  The 

information needed includes the maximum RPM, whether or not you have 

a PSRU (gearbox or direct drive) and what speed you think you can get 

from the horsepower on your airplane.



I looked at Great Plains and could not find the information. The only 

2180cc engine I found was a 70 HP direct drive version and I didn't 

spend enough time to get the RPM red line.



I would suggest you play with the Culverprops calculator by inputting 

your red line RPM, the correct reduction amount, and 150 or 160 

MPH.  Keep changing the prop length until you get something around 

.80 mach for the tip speeds.  This will give you the length to use 

given the assumption (which may be totally wrong) that your engine 

can produce enough horsepower to reach that speed.



 From conversations I have had with other HDS owners, I suspect you 

will not reach anything like that fast with a 70 HP engine.  Those 

speeds are the kind reached with a Jabiru 330 engine which produces 

120 or 120 horsepower.



Another approach you can use is to install a variable pitch prop and 

try different settings to get different performance.  You will still 

need to know your red line RPM to find a reasonable starting setting.



Good luck,



Paul

XL wings



 	  Quote: 	
		  Howdy all;



I bought a 601hds  a few months ago and have been flying it.  I think I have

the wrong size propeller though, and I was hoping some of you might have

some advise as it is very slow and only climbs at about 600fpm.



The plane came with a New Great plains 2180cc engine, with 9:1 compression.

It should produce about 80 hp.  It has a aerovee carb and fuel pump

regulated to  psi.



The propeller is a Warniki 52x44 prop.  On the ground it turns 3500 rpm.  In

the air, it turns 3600 (or a little more), and you have to throttle back

quit a bit to see 3400 rpm.  At 3400 rpm, it cruise at only 95mph, top speed

is less than 100.

I heard that these hds taper wing planes should go 120-140 mph, I dont have

wheel pants or gear fairings (its a tri-gear), but 95 seems very slow.  I

think the prop might be too small, but everyone I ask tells me it needs a

different size.  Some say a 62x42 (that sounds to big to me), great planes

says use a 60x29 (but a 29 pitch has a pitch speed of 90 mph, so I dont see

how it could make the plane go faster)

What do you all think?



Thanks



Roger Hill


	


----

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planejim(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:51 am Post subject: VW PROPELLER SIZE ADVICE NEEDED- 601HDS

Roger & Linda,



I never operated a VW powered aircraft but I remember correctly, the KR1 and 

KR2s had much faster cruise speeds. They had VW engines and were direct 

drive. Large diameter props run into trouble on high rpm turning engines 

without gear reduction. My Rotax 912UL of 80HP turns a GSC 66" dia. prop set 

at 16degrees. I'm not sure what that converts to pitch in inches. TOO lazy 

to figure it out. Of course the Rotax has a gear reduction of 2.27 to 1 

which results in a prop RPM of 2335 when the engine is turning 5300 where I 

cruise at. Probably could use a larger diameter prop but one has to watch 

that the engine doesn't get overloaded. The airplane is at 100 to 105 MPH at 

that setting. I do have wheel fairings. I haven't flown without them but I 

would guess that the would make a 4 to 5 MPH difference.



You state that you have both low climb and low cruise. Usually it's a trade 

off between them. I can really increase my climb but at cruise penalty or go 

the other way and still have a respectable climb. Have to be carefull with 

max RPM when I go toward the max. climb direction and too low RPM on 

take-off if I go to the higher pitch. Comprimise - comprimise!.



Sounds like you just aren't getting the full power out of your engine to the 

prop. This would possibly explain the low climb and low cruise.



You might talk to John or Jeremy Monnet about what prop they use on the 

Sonex. They use a VW and cruise at the speed where the HDS is supposed to 

go! Ask them about engine size ( they may be using bigger engines ) and prop 

size matching.

Jim Hoak 601HD 500 hrs.



do not archive



---

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Larry McFarland

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 36
Location: East Moline, Illinois

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: VW PROPELLER SIZE ADVICE NEEDED- 601HDS

Roger,

The numbers you provide seem to be fairly accurate for the engine and 

prop as applied to the 601.

I fly a Subaru that has a Warp Drive 70-inch ground adjustable prop.  

With the prop set at 15-degrees,

the numbers were expected to be lower.  4500 rpm provided about 95-mph 

and 5000 would get it to

110-mph.  With the prop at 17-degrees, 4100 rpms get it to 105, 4650 

gets about 120 and 5100 gets it

to 133-mph.  The hds taper wings can go between 120 and 140-mph, but 

most easily with the Corvair or the

Jabaru 3300 on board.  The Subaru's a little slower, even with a good 

spinner, wheel and gear box fairings.



I'd try the 60x29 prop, conditional to refund, to see if it would spin 

up a little better.  Is there no ground adjustable prop

for the 2180 engine?  You'd be able to find the sweet spot a little 

easier with one of those.



Larry McFarland - 601hds at www.macsmachine.com

do not archive



Roger and Lina Hill wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Howdy all;



I bought a 601hds  a few months ago and have been flying it.  I think I have

the wrong size propeller though, and I was hoping some of you might have

some advise as it is very slow and only climbs at about 600fpm.



The plane came with a New Great plains 2180cc engine, with 9:1 compression.

It should produce about 80 hp.  It has a aerovee carb and fuel pump

regulated to  psi.



The propeller is a Warniki 52x44 prop.  On the ground it turns 3500 rpm.  In

the air, it turns 3600 (or a little more), and you have to throttle back

quit a bit to see 3400 rpm.  At 3400 rpm, it cruise at only 95mph, top speed

is less than 100.

I heard that these hds taper wing planes should go 120-140 mph, I dont have

wheel pants or gear fairings (its a tri-gear), but 95 seems very slow.  I

think the prop might be too small, but everyone I ask tells me it needs a

different size.  Some say a 62x42 (that sounds to big to me), great planes

says use a 60x29 (but a 29 pitch has a pitch speed of 90 mph, so I dont see

how it could make the plane go faster)

What do you all think?



Thanks



Roger Hill

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_________________
Larry McFarland - 601HDS - Stratus

n282rs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:16 pm Post subject: VW PROPELLER SIZE ADVICE NEEDED- 601HDS

I had a 2180  with a redrive on my HD at one time. It was supposed to make

103 hp (at)4200 rpm. My max speed was 89 mph on a good day. Initial climb was

at least 1000 fpm, but after 5 minutes it would overheat. No way to cool

103 hp on those heads. I talked to a fellow in Indiana with a direct drive

in his. I think he said he as getting 90-95 mph. So your speeds are about

right. If you increase pitch for the higher cruise, you might get 5 mph 

more out of it, but you are going to climb slower. You might also have

higher CHT's. If you want to go faster, you are going to have to change to

a different engine.



Randy Stout

n282rs"at"earthlink.net

www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21



 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Roger and Lina Hill <hills(at)sunflower.com>

 To: <zenith-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 2/18/2006 9:30:19 AM

 Subject: VW PROPELLER SIZE ADVICE NEEDED- 601HDS



 

<hills(at)sunflower.com>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Howdy all;



 I bought a 601hds  a few months ago and have been flying it.  I think I

have
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   the wrong size propeller though, and I was hoping some of you might have

 some advise as it is very slow and only climbs at about 600fpm.



 The plane came with a New Great plains 2180cc engine, with 9:1

compression.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   It should produce about 80 hp.  It has a aerovee carb and fuel pump

 regulated to  psi.



 The propeller is a Warniki 52x44 prop.  On the ground it turns 3500 rpm. 

In
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   the air, it turns 3600 (or a little more), and you have to throttle back

 quit a bit to see 3400 rpm.  At 3400 rpm, it cruise at only 95mph, top

speed
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   is less than 100.

 I heard that these hds taper wing planes should go 120-140 mph, I dont

have
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   wheel pants or gear fairings (its a tri-gear), but 95 seems very slow.  I

 think the prop might be too small, but everyone I ask tells me it needs a

 different size.  Some say a 62x42 (that sounds to big to me), great planes

 says use a 60x29 (but a 29 pitch has a pitch speed of 90 mph, so I dont

see
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   how it could make the plane go faster)

 What do you all think?



 Thanks



 Roger Hill

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rbutterfield(at)mebtel.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: VW PROPELLER SIZE ADVICE NEEDED- 601HDS

At 10:22 AM 2/18/06, Roger and Lina Hill wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I bought a 601hds  a few months ago and have been flying it.  I think I have

the wrong size propeller though, and I was hoping some of you might have

some advise as it is very slow and only climbs at about 600fpm.



The propeller is a Warniki 52x44 prop.


	


This I feel is your problem, specifically the diameter of the prop.



As a bit of an over-simplification, imagine the profile of the 

propellor overlaid on the profile of the center section of the fuselage.



Props this size are successfully used on dimunitive planes like the 

Hummelbird and the KR1. These little planes are only slightly over 

20" wide, and quite low as well.



The 601, however, has a big chunky fuselage (at least by comparison). 

As best as I can figure, it's cross sectional area is around 11 sq. 

ft. The area of a 52" propellor disk is only 14.74 sq. ft. So, almost 

75% of the propellor disk is blocked by the airplane. I think this is 

a major reason for your relatively poor performance.



The William Wynne ZenVair uses a 66" Warp Drive prop with it's 

Corvair engine. That propellor gives a disk area of 23.76 sq. ft., 

which leaves only 46% of it's area blocked by the airplane.



This is, of course, an over-simplification. A slippery, 

well-streamlined airplane like the AR-5  http://www.ar-5.com/  can 

use a proportionally smaller propellor than a boxy, draggy shape like 

a Volksplane  http://www.evansair.com/



Regards,

RonB

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