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Gap Seal
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d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject: gap seal

At 10:39 AM 9/20/2007, boyd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Dana

Or you could make it permanent,  bolt it on and forget it.



Boyd


	


I would, but I expect to be folding the wings on a regular basis.



                                 -Dana

--

--

"I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind."

Wade Lawicki

Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Nashville Tn.

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:40 am Post subject: Re: Gap Seal

Group,

          We "HAD" an Ultra Star pilot  argue the same point 2 years ago in Tullahoma Tn. at a large event. he thought it was not needed, crashed in front of hundreds of spectators Dying in a very gruesome way as when his BRS handle hooked on the tree he impacted, the rocket went off with the cable around his neck, or where his neck used to be!!  Do as you will but, its not worth saving a couple of minutes of setup time and playing test pilot. I apologize if this sounds harsh but, the sight of that will never leave my mind.

                                                 Fly Safe,

                                                                 Wade

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

At 09:40 AM 9/22/2007, Wade Lawicki wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Group,

           We "HAD" an Ultra Star pilot  argue the same point 2 years ago 

 in Tullahoma Tn. at a large event. he thought it was not needed, crashed 

 in front of hundreds of spectators...


	


Well, I went ahead and made one for mine last night, why take 

chances?  .040" clear vinyl held on with 2" heavy duty velcro; it actually 

came out quite nice.  I haven't actually flown with it yet (other than one 

short crow hop; it was too windy) but it seems to be holding on just fine.



                                 -Dana



--

--

"I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind."

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:21 am Post subject: Re: Gap Seal

New Kolb Mark II owner here.  Can you guys take a look at the picture I've attached and tell me if you've seen a gap seal like the one I have?  It is some kind of cloth (I don't know what).  It is velcroed onto the wings.  Is that safe?



Cristal

Kolb Mark II seats.jpg

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herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: Gap Seal

Cristal



   The Kolb Firefly uses the same or similar gap seal.. Canvas or heavy

cloth with velcro... The velcro that is attached to the wing roots comes

unglued in short order...on mine anyway... Herb 

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 06:21:34 -0700 "cristalclear13"

<cristalclearwaters(at)juno.com> writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <cristalclearwaters(at)juno.com>

 

 New Kolb Mark II owner here.  Can you guys take a look at the 

 picture I've attached and tell me if you've seen a gap seal like the 

 one I have?  It is some kind of cloth (I don't know what).  It is 

 velcroed onto the wings.  Is that safe?

 

 Cristal

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135867#135867

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/kolb_mark_ii_seats_148.jpg

beauford173(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: Gap Seal

Brother (Brothette?) Cristal:



Per your question...  I don't believe safety is necessarily the issue with 

the nylon seal.   However, I had unsatisfactory results with the Kolb 

factory-provided rip-stop nylon gap seal which came in the Firefly kit... It 

never actually came off, but despite my re-velcroing efforts on the aft end, 

the trailing edges gradually feathered out and shredded in the slipstream 

until it eventually became an unsightly mess after about 50 hours.  The last 

time I flew with it installed, I learned a bonus lesson about nylon and 

various hot Rotax Brothers components, particularly, the exhaust... The tiny 

nylon fuzz instantly melts and bakes onto every hot surface with which it 

comes into contact... and the low-pressure turbulent areas behind the BRS 

cannister did a superb job of sucking that little cloud of nylon thread 

particles back forward enough to give a really nice spattering effect on 

parts well forward of the shredding areas further aft....



Once baked on there, it took a delightful scotchbrite and sandpaper weekend 

before I finally got all of that crap off the engine.



I would use asphalt roofing shingles for a gap seal before I would put 

another one of those nylon thingys

on my airplane...  It now has an aluminum seal, heavy velcro at the front, 

bungees at the rear... 90 or so hours on the thing... no problems.... yet...



Worth what ye paid fer it...



Beauford

FF-076 / N173BW

Brandon, FL


<cristalclearwaters(at)juno.com>



New Kolb Mark II owner here.  Can you guys take a look at the picture I've 

attached and tell me if you've seen a gap seal like the one I have?  It is 

some kind of cloth (I don't know what).  It is velcroed onto the wings.  Is 

that safe?



Cristal





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=135867#135867





Attachments:



http://forums.matronics.com//files/kolb_mark_ii_seats_148.jpg

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:38 am Post subject: Gap Seal

> I would use asphalt roofing shingles for a gap seal before I would put

 	  Quote: 	
		   another one of those nylon thingys

 on my airplane...



 Beauford


	




Bill:



Got to admit, that nylon is light in weight.



On the other hand, asphalt shingles are a good idea.  Especially the ones 

you all use in Florida.  GAF has some rated for 110 mph, well above the vne 

for a FF.  As a matter of fact, they also have some 80 mph shingles, but 

there is always the chance one may slip over the vne of the FF and exceed 80 

mph.



john h

mkIII



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Gap Seal

Thanks for sharing your input and experiences.  Just curious if there are factors that contribute to the deterioration of the Velcro such as...are they hangered right after flying vs. left out in the weather...do you fold the wings every time you're done flying, thus needing to continually remove and replace the cloth gap seal...do you live in extreme climates?



Beauford, I've never heard the term "Brothette", but if that's what you'd call a "Mrs.", then yep, that's me.



Aviatress Cristal

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:19 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

At 10:05 PM 9/23/2007, cristalclear13 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<cristalclearwaters(at)juno.com>



Thanks for sharing your input and experiences.  Just curious if there are 

factors that contribute to the deterioration of the Velcro such as...are 

they hangered right after flying vs. left out in the weather...do you fold 

the wings every time you're done flying, thus needing to continually 

remove and replace the cloth gap seal...


	


Different types of velcro are rated for different lifespans (number of 

stick/unstick cycles).  In general, the stronger the bond, the shorter the 

life.



For mine, I found a strong bond velcro that still is good for plenty of 

cycles... and has an adhesive back specifically made for flexible vinyl, 

which is what I used... and sticks just great to the Stits wing covering, 

which also is vinyl based.



                                 -Dana



--

--

"I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind."

HShack(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

In a message dated 9/23/2007 10:07:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cristalclearwaters(at)juno.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Just curious if there are factors that contribute to the deterioration of the Velcro such as... 	
  

 The sun deteriorates the glue on Velcro fairly fast.  Most people get rid of the cloth gap seal pretty quick.

  

 My plane is a FS II.

  

 Mine is made of .060 Lexan with an aluminum leading edge & some lateral aluminum angles & is held on with screws into the wing leading edge, industrial Velcro along the edges, & bunjii's.  It only covers the top of the wing as I like a lot of clearance for my big head.

  

 The best mod. I have made to my FSII is to replace the short windshield with one that starts out the same as the shorty at the bottom [where it bolts on], but extends all the way up to the wing.  Also, because of bad knees, I trimmed the right side of the windshield  so that only one screw holds that side, gives me about 8" more room to get my foot in.  Yes, my windshield shape is assymetrical, the plane doesn't care.The new Lexan was increased in thickness to .090".  I don't fold.

 I no longer feel the wind is pushing my head back & it makes winter flying more bearable.  By the way, I live in SC.

 



  

 Howard Shackleford

FS II

SC



Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

beauford173(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

Madam Aviatress Cristal...



Per your questions;  My machine lives in an enclosed trailer and is folded 

after each flight.



My take on the deterioration of the  nylon cloth was that it was not so much 

the velcro, or any sort of UV  induced ageing, as it was the fluttering of 

the trailing edge of the center portion of the cover...   I think it 

mechanically beat itself to death. As I mentioned, I reinforced the velcro 

on the sides toward the rear with heavier stuff...   and I took particular 

care to stretch it as tightly as possible after noticing that it was 

shredding a little over toward the center... From the time I first noticed 

the beginning of the problem until it turned into a fuzzy nylon party favor 

was not more than five flight hours.  That last hour did almost all of the 

serious damage.



As for living in an extreme climate...  I have been married  over 42 

years....



Good Luck, and enjoy your Mark II.



Beauford

p.s.   Aluminum and lexan are our friends....

Do Not Archive




<cristalclearwaters(at)juno.com>



deterioration of the Velcro such as...are they hangered right after flying 

vs. left out in the weather...do you fold the wings every time you're done 

flying...  Do you live in an extreme climate?



Aviatress Cristal  





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136008#136008

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: gap seal

At 10:39 AM 9/20/2007, boyd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Dana

Or you could make it permanent,  bolt it on and forget it.



Boyd


	


I would, but I expect to be folding the wings on a regular basis.



                                 -Dana

--

--



Dana



With the way I built my gap seal,   I can fold the wings without removing

it.



Boyd.

herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:20 am Post subject: Gap Seal

Cristal



  I had 15 hours on my velcro..always hangered...always folded.. It came

loose on the top of the wing toward the engine.Both sides.. 

  Currently working on a .016 2024 t3 sheet of Aluminum to replace the

cloth gap seal.. I do not plan to use lexan as it is much too heavy..Herb



On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 19:05:47 -0700 "cristalclear13"

<cristalclearwaters(at)juno.com> writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <cristalclearwaters(at)juno.com>

 

 Thanks for sharing your input and experiences.  Just curious if 

 there are factors that contribute to the deterioration of the Velcro 

 such as...are they hangered right after flying vs. left out in the 

 weather...do you fold the wings every time you're done flying, thus 

 needing to continually remove and replace the cloth gap seal...do 

 you live in extreme climates?

 

 Beauford, I've never heard the term "Brothette", but if that's what 

 you'd call a "Mrs.", then yep, that's me.

 

 Aviatress Cristal  

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136008#136008

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:00 am Post subject: gap seal

At 01:07 AM 9/24/2007, boyd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



With the way I built my gap seal,   I can fold the wings without removing

it.


	


That sure sounds convenient... but I don't think it's possible on an Ultrastar.



                                 -Dana

--

--

"I'm a lawyer." "Honest?" "No, the usual kind."

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:15 am Post subject: Gap Seal

At 07:05 PM 9/23/07 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Thanks for sharing your input and experiences.  Just curious if there are factors that contribute to the deterioration of the Velcro such as...are they hangered right after flying vs. left out in the weather...do you fold the wings every time you're done flying, thus needing to continually remove and replace the cloth gap seal...do you live in extreme climates?




	


Cristal,



History of my center wing gap seal.



I painted the original white gap seal to match the color of the FireFly.



The thread on the original Kolb supplied trailing edge started to fail from 

flapping after three hours of fight.  I re-sewed the seam and inserted a 

small diameter aluminum tube inside the seam to stiffen the trailing edge.  

This stopped the fluttering and I had no further problems with the trailing 

edge.



After 41 hours, about one year, I replaced the gap seal.  I purchased light 

red Dacron cloth that closely matched the color of the FireFly.  I cut the 

thread on the original gap seal so that I could use it as a pattern.  I 

re-used the original Velcro. It has been in place for the last 190 hours and 

seven years.  To save weight, I did not paint or seal the cloth.  I keep the 

back edge from fluttering by using a small piece of Velcro in the center to 

attach it to the engine support tube.  I did install a tube in the foremost 

seam to prevent it from buzzing.  



I rarely fold.  The FireFly is hangared in and enclosed building out of 

direct sun light.  All but two years of this time the FireFly was hangared 

in the Mississippi River bottoms where it was hot and humid in the summer.  

I have not had any trouble with the adhesive backing on the wings.  At this 

time, the color shows some fading, but otherwise the gap seal in in good 

shape.

  

I hope this helps you out.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:49 am Post subject: Gap Seal

Cristal, years ago I had a Maxair Hummer that often needed to have the wings 

folded, and I had a very successful gap seal made from Naugahyde that was 

semi stretchy. It would give a little when you stretched it, it had Velcro 

sewed around the perimeter to attach to the various structure points. The 

stretchiness allowed it to fit tightly. Based on my experience, if I were 

going to use any sort of fabric instead of aluminum, I would choose 

Naugahyde instead of cloth, and also sew a reinforcement into the rear edge 

ala Jack Hart's method.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:48 am Post subject: Gap Seal

Piping in

    My experience tells me that just the last  foot or so of velcro ,

glued to the wings, toward the engine, on the top side, is all that needs

fixing.. 



   I figure that the gap seal is flapping a bit in flight to hasten  to

the problem...   Herb 



   

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:47:02 -0400 "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org>

writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <richard(at)bcchapel.org>

 

 Cristal, years ago I had a Maxair Hummer that often needed to have 

 the wings 

 folded, and I had a very successful gap seal made from Naugahyde 

 that was 

 semi stretchy. It would give a little when you stretched it, it had 

 Velcro 

 sewed around the perimeter to attach to the various structure 

 points. The 

 stretchiness allowed it to fit tightly. Based on my experience, if I 

 were 

 going to use any sort of fabric instead of aluminum, I would choose 

 

 Naugahyde instead of cloth, and also sew a reinforcement into the 

 rear edge 

 ala Jack Hart's method.

 

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Gap Seal

Without the gap seal you are going to have some kind of degraded performance....we can all agree, even if is is not that noticeable.



You will also have more turbulence over your tail due to the extra vortices effecting controlability.



I think we can all agree that Gap Seal WILL improve things.



The consequences of NOT using a gap seal can be minor or even Hazardous to your health.



My Ultrastar has a fiberglass Gap seal, but Im sure aluminum or fabric are just as good or better.



I'd say use the Gap seal and have a better flying safer aircraft.

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

WillUribe(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

Here are pictures of some of the repair I have to make.

 



Make AOL Your Homepage.

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by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: gap seal

I have never seen an ultrastar....    but unless it folds differently than

the mkIIIc   it should be possible.



Boyd

 	  Quote: 	
		  

With the way I built my gap seal,   I can fold the wings without removing

it.


	


That sure sounds convenient... but I don't think it's possible on an

Ultrastar.



                                 -Dana

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