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jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: Flight safety question - chutes

I was wondering what people are using for safety when flying kolbs?



Do you wear a parachute?



Have a Ballistic or Throwable parachute mounted?



Do not have any kind of parachute?

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Flight safety question - chutes

Hey Ray:



Here are a few things I use:



I do a comprehensive and careful preflight of the entire aircraft before every flight......I use clean fuel....... I use a Check List ..... I do not fly when it it is forecast to be gusting winds over 10 kts...... I practice power off landings regularly.



Now, I am a rookie at Kolb flying, so I may need to add some items to the list as I become more aware.  With time, I suppose I may raise the 10 kt limit (it is a personal limit, prior limit was "calm wind only").



I do have a BRS installed.  I assume it will work    but do not want to test it out. 



Fly Safe,



Jim

do not archive

_________________
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: Flight safety question - chutes

Ray, Even though a chest pack, hand thrown 'chute saved my life 26 years ago after I was extremely stupid, I have mixed feelings about them. If one hadn't come on my Mk III I don't think I would buy one. I didn't on my Trike. The problem, IMHO, is a false sense of security they give. Once they're deployed, you're just a passenger along for the ride. I don't fly any aircraft to break it, I do good maintenance, and I always leave myself an out. I think that's the better way. On the other hand, you'll never see me fly a glider without a reserve.  



Rick



On 11/2/07, jb92563 <jb92563(at)yahoo.com (jb92563(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "jb92563" <jb92563(at)yahoo.com (jb92563(at)yahoo.com)>



I was wondering what people are using for safety when flying kolbs?



Do you wear a parachute? 



Have a Ballistic or Throwable parachute mounted?



Do not have any kind of parachute?



--------

Ray

Riverside County, CA



Do Not Archive





Read this topic online here:



 



[b]

Snoopy Baxley

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 42

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:48 pm Post subject: Flight safety question - chutes

Kolb-List message posted by: "jb92563" jb92563(at)yahoo.com (jb92563(at)yahoo.com)

I was wondering what people are using for safety when flying kolbs?

Do you wear a parachute?

Have a Ballistic or Throwable parachute mounted?

Do not have any kind of parachute?

 

 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

  

 Hey Ray

 For safety I usually wear my parachute while holding my throwable chute in my lap and with my free hand on the Firing handle of my ballistic chute ..... ............. : - ))

 ...........................................................................................Just kidding.... LOL

 The best safety device you can have is to do a very good pre-flight of your airplane before you go flying... Making sure your plane is safe and reliable to fly and the weather is good .  

 I have a ballistic parachute on my airplane that is used as a last resort . As most of the other pilots that I know do too . .

 I don't know of any one flying our type of birds that wears a parachute . It would be almost impossible to successfully get out of our planes in flight and then to successfully deploy the chute.

 Anyone agree ?

  

 Stevon Baxley

 Kolb Firefly

 Pansey, Alabama



  [quote][b]

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:45 am Post subject: Flight safety question - chutes

Re: using hand chute. Ask John H. and/or Dennis...they both "got out and threw out"...from Kolbs.



 regards,

Bob N.    FireFly 070 Old Kolb

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/

do not archive



 



 [quote][b]

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Flight safety question - chutes

This has been a very interesting topic as some of you have apparently had to deploy a chute and lived to tell the story.



I myself understand the importance of a thorough preflight as I have found things on aircraft....others...that have been rather alarming and even more boggled how the other pilots have missed things.



For example, one glider I flew had its spar retaining pin partially backed out of the spar knuckle joint....yikes!



That same aircraft also had some issues with the Left wingtip being a little more flexible that the other wing for some reason.....turns out the reason for the new right wing was that someone did aerobatics and overstressed the right wing, cracking the spar.....they only replaced the one wing....jeez!



My own aircraft had a tail-wheel locking cable wrapped around the left ruddervator pushrod causing considerable increase in control forces....apparently it was done by the A&P during the annual somehow and I caught it in the preflight.



My main concern for safely in our aluminum and chromoly tube structures is cracking of tubes and welds.



They unusually occur in those hidden areas that are hard to inspect.



As far as getting out...I have an Ultrastar so.....relatively easy.

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Flight safety question - chutes

 	  jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  



If one hadn't come on my Mk III I don't think I would buy one. I didn't on my Trike. The problem, IMHO, is a false sense of security they give. Once they're deployed, you're just a passenger along for the ride. 

Rick



	




I have to disagree with Rick on this one.   I absolutely would not fly either my MK-III or trike without a BRS.  In experimental aircraft, schit happens, and BRS chutes have an excellent record for saving lives.  I do not take any extra chances because I have a BRS, nor do I preflight less because of my BRS, but that is more of an issue of using good judgement than having a BRS or not.



Ricks reasoning is just so wrong.  If I thought like Rick, I would not wear a seatbelt, because it would make me take more chances in my car...   Do you drive in a reckless manner because you have an airbag ?   Only a fool would not take every safety advantage he can get.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:10 am Post subject: Flight safety question - chutes

Just to muddy the waters even more.  Very few chutes are fitted in the UK. I 

have only ever seen one. . In Germany it is illegal to fly without one.



Unless the plane actually breaks up I would have thought that your are 

better off staying with it. You have some control and you have a cage round 

you.  You would have to be in some  extraordinary circumstance to pull the 

chute just because of engine failure.



Cheers



Pat

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:15 am Post subject: Flight safety question - chutes

Oh so everyone that doesn't have a BRS is a Fool now.  

 I have to Disagree with that as I am one that will not buy one, one of the planes I had came with one and I removed it I would rather have less drag  & weight then a chute  don't fly outside the airplanes design envelope use a checklist on pre flight  keep your plane well maintained fine tuned and you shouldn't need a chute on a kolb if it was built properly 

  

 But if you hear of me turning into a lawn dart or going in the woods some day in the future and not making it, at least I went out enjoying what I like to do most, instead of lingering on in some nursing home  depending on others to take care of me until the lights go out 

  I will find my own way out  Thanks 

  

 Already been in the woods scene once and not a scratch the wife thinks I have nine lives and IM trying em out life's short enjoy what you like while you can 

  

 Ellery in Maine 

  

 do not archive

  





  [quote][b]

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:42 am Post subject: Flight safety question - chutes

IMHO -- 'once they're deployed' - you're a LIVE passenger along for  

the ride, not a dead crash victim

On Nov 7, 2007, at 12:25 AM, JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote:

> If one hadn't come on my Mk III I don't think I would buy one. I  

> didn't on my Trike. The problem, IMHO, is a false sense of  

> security they give. Once they're deployed, you're just a passenger  

> along for the ride.

> Rick

 I have to disagree with Rick on this one.   I absolutely would not  

 fly either my MK-III or trike without a BRS.  In experimental  

 aircraft, schit happens, and BRS chutes have an excellent record  

 for saving lives.  I do not take any extra chances because I have a  

 BRS, nor do I preflight less because of my BRS, but that is more of  

 an issue of using good judgement than having a BRS or not.

 Ricks reasoning is just so wrong.  If I thought like Rick, I would  

 not wear a seatbelt, because it would make me take more chances in  

 my car...   Do you drive in a reckless manner because you have an  

 airbag ?   Only a fool would not take every safety advantage he can  

 get.

 Mike

 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

 as you could have !!!

 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144293#144293

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:34 am Post subject: Re: Flight safety question - chutes

Being a glider pilot I figure that engine outs are no reason to ever deploy a chute unless the terrain below is unlandable from a glide.



Why would anyone NOT take chute with them when you can get a hand throwable attached to the entire aircraft for under $800.



That way you have the advantage of the protective structure and a controlled rate of descent.....as opposed to a dive straight to the ground.



I think an important consideration is also the mode of failure.



I'd say that critical welds and fittings could break resulting in the folding up of the wings as one mode....with a resulting tumbling to the ground.



Another could be a failure in the control system to the tail by snapping a cable or breaking a weld resulting in loss of elevator authority....followed by a steep dive to the ground?(Unless you have properly trimmed fixed trim tabs)



Another failure could be due to flutter and disintegration of ailerons due to excessive speed....could result in an unrecoverable roll.



I'd say a chute of most any kind could save your life in those scenarios at more than 800' AGL

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Flight safety question - chutes

 	  ElleryWeld(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  Oh so everyone that doesn't have a BRS is a Fool now.  

 	




First , Don't misquote me, I never said that and I'm sure you well know this.     What I did say is if you have a chute, and remove it, then yes I would consider you a fool.   You like to sound tough and nostalgic talking about dieing doing what you love, and not growing old.   



There were just two guys in a trike in this area that had a failure, and spiraled into the ground from 1500 feet due to a structural failure.  The pilot was an A&P mechanic, known for the quality of his work, and also a a great guy and competent pilot.  Witnesses said they were flying along in a normal manner when there was a bang, and then a long spiraling dive.  The ensuing fire was to intense for them to be pulled clear of the wreckage.  A BRS would have almost surely saved them.



Both the Pilot and his passenger were in their 20's.



Do you honestly expect use to buy that these two guys would be OK with dieing in their 20's , instead of living life, getting married, and flying some really nest stuff that will surely be developed in the next 50 years ???  If one can get past the flowery way you made your statement about dieing, thinks about what you actually said, it is one of the worst things I have ever seen posted.



When I was in high school, I flew my ultralight without a chute.  If you don't have a BRS, and can not afford one, that is understandable.  I have been there and done it.   But if you have one, or can easily get one, and don't, yes, I would consider you a fool.   Just as I would consider anyone a fool that took the airbags out of their car, because they don't want to "grow old" in a nursing home.



Here is a link to the over 200 documented saves by BRS, listed along with the cause of deployment:



http://brsparachutes.com/files/Documents/Lives-Saved.pdf



Only an idiot would say that all these 200 guys were careless in their preflights, and would have been better off by being more careful than having a BRS.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:06 am Post subject: Flight safety question - chutes

 

 This is from your words "Only a fool would not take every safety advantage he can get".



 It's a Good thing all people are not alike that was just my opinion and I see you have yours  I take anything you say with a grain of salt because of many other conversations you have argued to this list in the past 

  

 Do you also know why the two young fellas  Crashed  "Aerobatic manuvers" from what I understand  wich  the craft was not designed  for if there the same guys I am thinking about 

 I will never read another post from you thanks to my Delete Button 

  

 Ellery 

 do not archive





  [quote][b]

Michael Sharp

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: Oak Grove, MO (Kansas City)

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:33 am Post subject: Flight safety question - chutes

Ellery,

   

  I have him as a rule in outlook to trash anything from him.  Been an A** Hole from the begining....

   

  



ElleryWeld(at)aol.com wrote:

  [quote]     

  This is from your words "Only a fool would not take every safety advantage he can get".



  It's a Good thing all people are not alike that was just my opinion and I see you have yours  I take anything you say with a grain of salt because of many other conversations you have argued to this list in the past 

   

  [b]Do you also know why the two young fellas [quote][b]

_________________
The air up there in the clouds is very pure and fine...And why shouldn't it be?-
--It is the same the angels breathe.
Mark Twain,
Roughing it' 1886

Mike

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Flight safety question - chutes

  ......if only everyone could play nice.



C'mon kids lets not be so judgmental and feud.



Constructive criticism is always better.

 

Its always good to walk a mile in someone else's shoes before criticizing ......that way they are a mile away and shoe-less before you let em have it

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

indyaviator(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: Flight safety question - chutes

I don't have a strong opinion on having a BRS chute, that is why I

haven't spent the money for one.  If you are flying on a tight budget,

I think that the money would be better spent on training, engine

overhauls, and maintenance.



As far as the 200 "saves" that BRS likes to talk about, I tend to be a

little wary of that number.  There are many true saves on that list,

but there are a lot of deployments due to engine failure.  I don't

really think of those all as saves.  I have to wonder if those pilots

would have been better off if they had spent the extra money on

training for dead stick landings, engine maintenance, and learning not

to fly over hostile terrain.  I also wonder what the failure rate is

for BRS.  They don't seem to publish that number.  If it was a very

low number, I would think that they would.



There are also risks to having a BRS.  Pull that handle and you may be

saved, or you may come down in electrical lines or in front of a

speeding semi.  In many instances you are better off flying the plane

to the scene of the crash.  Obviously if the wing falls off of your

plane this is another story.  There is also a real risk to potential

rescue workers and citizens that try and help you out of your crashed

plane if you did not deploy it.  We had a brand new Challenger at our

airport many years ago.  A pilot accidentally pulled the handle when

exiting the plane after a flight.  It was a windy day and the wind

caught the chute and dragged the plane across a field and into a

fence.  It caused a lot of damage.



All in all, the benefits of having a BRS surely outweigh not having

one....just not by much in my book.  When I am spiraling in from

1200', you can all say "I told you so."



Bryan Dever

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: Flight safety question - chutes

GOOD  ON  YOU, ELLERY!



On Nov 7, 2007, at 1:30 PM, Michael Sharp wrote:

[quote]Ellery,

   

  I have him as a rule in outlook to trash anything from him.  Been an A** Hole from the begining....

   

  



ElleryWeld(at)aol.com (ElleryWeld(at)aol.com) wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		       

  This is from your words "Only a fool would not take every safety advantage he can get".



  It's a Good thing all people are not alike that was just my opinion and I see you have yours  I take anything you say with a grain of salt because of many other conversations you have argued to this list in the past 

   

  Do you also know why the two young fellas  	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



	
[/b]

	
[b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Flight safety question - chutes

 	  ElleryWeld(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  



Do you also know why the two young fellas  Crashed  "Aerobatic manuvers" from what I understand  wich  the craft was not designed  for if there the same guys I am thinking about [/b]

 I will never read another post from you thanks to my Delete Button 

 ] 	




So what part of " flying along in a normal manner " do you not understand ??  There were plenty of witnesses and no aerobatics involved.



You posted something downright stupid, and now you are all bitter and reacting like a baby when someone points it out in public.  Personally, I dont care if you use chute or not.  I beleive everyone should have the right to kill themself if they want.   Where I do take issue is where fools like you give this very BAD advice to others here on the list.   Lots of people read this list that never post, its our responsibility to give them good information.  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:39 pm Post subject: Flight safety question - chutes

At 10:34 AM 11/7/2007, jb92563 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Being a glider pilot I figure that engine outs are no reason to ever 

deploy a chute unless the terrain below is unlandable from a glide.


	


Yet you hear again and again of Cirrus pilots doing it in a panic.



Even if the terrain is unlandable, I'd still fly the airplane down.  Even 

if you go into the trees, if you go in under control chances are you'll 

walk away from it.



Actually my plane already took one reserve ride.  The first owner had an 

engine failure at 2000' right over the airport, panicked and pulled the 

chute... and drifted into power lines.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Why would anyone NOT take chute with them when you can get a hand 

throwable attached to the entire aircraft for under $800.


	


Can you still get a hand deployed chute for anything bigger than a hang 

glider?  If so that'd be real attractive since a new BRS would cost as much 

as I paid for my plane.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Another could be a failure in the control system to the tail by snapping a 

cable or breaking a weld resulting in loss of elevator 

authority....followed by a steep dive to the ground?(Unless you have 

properly trimmed fixed trim tabs)


	


That's the one that worries me most... when I got my plane it really wanted 

to dive when I took my hand off the stick.  Now with tabs the hands off 

speed is around cruise speed.



                                 -Dana

--

--

But do you trust the _government_ with semi-automatic assault rifles?

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: Flight safety question - chutes

Mike

Some (many?)  of us wonder about you 'giving good information'.

We recall much earlier posts, apparently from you, and it does give  

us cause.

Enough of this jazz. Let's move on -- stop bashing people. Even to  

calling them fools.

On Nov 7, 2007, at 2:54 PM, JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 ElleryWeld(at)aol.com wrote:

> Do you also know why the two young fellas  Crashed  "Aerobatic  

> manuvers" from what I understand  wich  the craft was not  

> designed  for if there the same guys I am thinking about [/b]

>  I will never read another post from you thanks to my Delete Button

>  ]

 So what part of " flying along in a normal manner " do you not  

 understand ??  There were plenty of witnesses and no aerobatics  

 involved.

 You posted something downright stupid, and now you are all bitter  

 and reacting like a baby when someone points it out in public.   

 Personally, I dont care if you use chute or not.  I beleive  

 everyone should have the right to kill themself if they want.    

 Where I do take issue is where fools like you give this very BAD  

 advice to others here on the list.   Lots of people read this list  

 that never post, its our responsibility to give them good information.

 Mike

 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

 as you could have !!!

 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144458#144458

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