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Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech

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gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech



Wow, nice flame job. I had my nomex and asbestos underwear on and still

my short curly hairs got singed. It was more flame than the Space Shuttle

on re-entry.

BigD(at)DaveMorris.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:29 am Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech



"What and where will the next innovations come from?"

I think this is where you are wrong. I'll just mention a few examples that

have absolutely SHAKEN the earth and transformed the entire planet over the

past 50 years:

"Ham Radio"

Many modern communications technologies were invented not by engineers, but

by amateurs, working in their shops, trying to come up with a "better way"

than the status quo. Spread spectrum, television, packet radio, and many

other examples exist. Howard Hughes was a ham. So was Robert

Goddard. Both of them were ridiculed for trying to find "a better way"

that was not in keeping with the present-day engineer mindset.

"Bill Gates"

Never graduated. Do we need to mention what he accomplished?

"Steve Jobs".

Do we need to mention what he created in his garage while HP was ridiculing

him for not being an "Engineer"?

Where are all these engineers when it comes to creating OBAM electrical

systems that are fault-tolerant? I don't remember seeing one single one of

them standing up in an EAA meeting to show us a better way. It's the

self-taught guy who has no "old school" to hide behind, the guy who is

thought of as "a bit crazy" who ends up being right all along. A thankless

job, taking all those arrows.

"There is tremendous unease in the "American soul" over the worth of the

dreamer/visionary.

We simultaneously romanticize these peculiar men and women, profit from

them, try to starve them out, and kill them off. It is as if investors,

distrustful of their own ability to tell the difference between an American

dream and an American Pipe Dream, hedge their bets by holding visionaries

to budgets and time lines that are just short of adequate."

- Fred Moody, "The Visionary Position"

Dave Morris

At 11:24 PM 1/3/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  What and where will the next innovations come from? ENGINEERS.

Chance is it will not be a kid from a Votech school that knows the bench as

Bob says. OK. Not a put down just a fact. We need to admire the academic

achievement and not scorn and ridicule it. I find the people who do this are

ones who could not cut it in school or are just plan ignorant. Not everyone

can be a self made man like Bob, no doubt he is much smarter than I am and

most Engineers or manager at Raytheon.

Richard(at)RILEY.NET
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech



At 07:28 AM 1/4/06, Dave Morris \"BigD\"" , wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  "What and where will the next innovations come from?"

I think this is where you are wrong. I'll just mention a few examples that

have absolutely SHAKEN the earth and transformed the entire planet over the

past 50 years:

"Ham Radio"

Many modern communications technologies were invented not by engineers, but

by amateurs, working in their shops, trying to come up with a "better way"

than the status quo. Spread spectrum...

	


Invented by Hedy Lamar - actress.

--

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:49 am Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech



Ahh..I see my fellow PE's frustration (of course being British I am A

Ceng and not a PE even though I work in the US). In the UK literally

everyone is an Engineer...maintain a photocopier..and you have the title

Engineer...its very frustrating when your relatives ask you if you "work

on cars?"

One of the reasons I came here in fact. George's point is a good one

when he mentions the working relationships between engineers and

technicians....We are nothing without them, indeed it is a very rare

engineer that anything more than the mechanical dexterity of a gorrilla,

and most of my professional colleages are chained safely to their

computers lest they foul something up in the real world.

I like to think I'm different..."Your building a PLANE?" my bispeckled

colleagues ask, like its akin to brain surgery or something.

OH well...back to my finite element analysis..

Frank

Do not archive

kayce33(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech



Dear George,

I do believe this forum is for helping, learning, passing info about

mistakes one may have made and also info about success in a particular

venture. I don't care if the individual has an alphabet soup after his name,

how much money he's made consulting, or how much disdain he has for the

uneducated such as I, and possibly a few others...and in particular Bob (

who I've never met but respect ). Why not give us something constructive as

so many others have, instead of satisfying your excessive pride in your

degrees and fragile ego by putting down someone who's doing a worthwhile

service for the homebuilt community. Next time you write, why not try

showing us a new, novel better way of doing something. Just for the heck of

it...look at Bill Gates, no degree and he's not the only successful person

without a degree, probably as many of them as there are PE's.

Nuff said

Harold....HS graduate

sportav8r(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech



Dear George,

SSampson.SLN21(at)london.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech



I cant resist asking how many on the list would ask the butcher to take

their appendix out rather than a qualified Dr. They both cut meat.

GMC has a point!

kellym(at)aviating.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech

`I'd say you have that analogy backwards. Would you expect a surgeon to extract your filet mignon from the beef carcass? Would he even know where to begin or the right tools for the job? Steve Sampson said: <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> I cant resist asking how many on the list would ask the butcher to take their appendix out rather than a qualified Dr. They both cut meat. GMC has a point!`

BigD(at)DaveMorris.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech

`You're saying you don't think you could cut a side of beef to make hamburgers, even without 7 years of schooling? We're building airplanes, not doing neurosurgery. Dave At 01:47 PM 1/5/2006, you wrote: <SSampson.SLN21(at)london.edu> I cant resist asking how many on the list would ask the butcher to take their appendix out rather than a qualified Dr. They both cut meat. GMC has a point!`

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech

`Dave Morris "BigD" a crit : You're saying you don't think you could cut a side of beef to make hamburgers, even without 7 years of schooling?`

Hmm, I'd rather have filet mignon than hamburger...
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr

terry(at)tcwatson.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech



Steve, if I understand your point, I think you have it exactly backwards.

The more appropriate use of your analogy is asking why you would hire a

surgeon to cut your steaks. He may know how to take you appendix out, but

why would that make him better at making hamburger?

As you sometimes hear from Vans, it's only an airplane. Have confidence

enough in yourself to judge who knows what they are talking about and who

doesn't. A degree or a license means that someone may have done some study,

filled out some forms, paid a fee and maybe passed some tests. If they were

all about wiring little airplanes, then maybe they mean something in this

context. Maybe not.

I don't think GMC has a point, but maybe I missed yours.

Terry

Degreed in one profession, licensed in another - neither has anything to do

with airplanes

Do not archive

kayce33(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech



And then there's the PHD in Nuclear Physics who can't change out his own

faulty electric wall outlet and calls a neighbor to help. Great

theoretically, but cannot put his ideas into practice, ho hum.

Harold

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech



Hi Terry,

I think Steve was assuming that GMC was talking about challenging tasks in

general, maybe more challenging than wiring-up an airplane. And that it's

desireable to find someone qualified to do the job, especially when the

stakes are high. And that formal education, and training (and hence

tickets-punched, degrees received) has some value towards indicating that

qualification.

My only problem with this line of thinking is that there are lots of ways

to get degrees and certificates (just like there are lots of ways to get

educated). The degrees and certificates are only a suggestion that

someone might be educated, and might have enhanced abilities and training.

They don't necessarily actually prove much, though I am not saying they

are worthless.

I got a BSEE from a small state run school, which thankfully wasn't a

degree factory. When I started my first job after graduation, I found

that, compared to my peers, I was pretty well prepared to actually start

working as an engineer in the semiconductor industry. Many EE's are

nearly useless when they are fresh out of school - didn't learn much that

was applicable to anything. And yet, you can't tell their pigskin from

mine.

The analogy was about doctors (surgeons). I'll just say this: There are

lots of "qualified" docs that I wouldn't let work on me, much less carve

my meat. The "qualification" is only one indication of competence.

Regards,

Matt-

<terry(at)tcwatson.com>

Steve, if I understand your point, I think you have it exactly

backwards. The more appropriate use of your analogy is asking why you

would hire a surgeon to cut your steaks. He may know how to take you

appendix out, but why would that make him better at making hamburger?

As you sometimes hear from Vans, it's only an airplane. Have confidence

enough in yourself to judge who knows what they are talking about and

who doesn't. A degree or a license means that someone may have done some

study, filled out some forms, paid a fee and maybe passed some tests. If

they were all about wiring little airplanes, then maybe they mean

something in this context. Maybe not.

I don't think GMC has a point, but maybe I missed yours.

Terry

Degreed in one profession, licensed in another - neither has anything to

do with airplanes

Do not archive

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech



Steve Sampson wrote:

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

sarg314(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech



I have to chime in here and say that in my 20-odd years in the computer

design business (I'm a software guy) the very best engineers I have ever

worked with did not have degrees. They were self taught. They started

tinkering when they were kids and when they got to college the

engineering curriculum put them to sleep. They were already doing

engineering for pay on the side so they just dropped out and got to work.

--

Tom Sargent

schmoboy(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech



Can we end this thread anytime soon?

I we must go on, can we add DO NOT ARCHIVE so as not to clog up the

archives.

Much appreciated..

-Sean RV-10 #40303

Brian Lloyd wrote:

Steve Sampson wrote:

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech



At 06:51 PM 1/5/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I have to chime in here and say that in my 20-odd years in the computer

design business (I'm a software guy) the very best engineers I have ever

worked with did not have degrees.

	


I guess it depends on what you're doing. I've never met anyone who

could design advanced structures without some engineering education. I've

met a lot of "seat-of-the-pants" designers, some of whom were pretty good,

but none could compare to someone who really knew the math.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

Do not archive

khurst(at)taroom.qld.gov.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:55 am Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech



 	  Quote: 	
		  I cant resist asking how many on the list would ask the butcher to take

	


their appendix out rather than a qualified Dr. They both cut meat.

Good point Steve, only a lot of Doctors are Butchers, believe me.

Problem is , how do we tell the difference ?

Likewise, not all Engineers are created equal ! How do we tell the

difference ?

I don't know the answers to either, but what I do know is that Bob

Nuckolls does a hell of a lot for very ordinary people like myself out

of the goodness of his heart. For all I know, gmcjetpilot may be an

exceptionally brilliant Engineer and I hope he is, but would he be

prepared to do what Bob does for little or no reward to help those like

myself when he can earn $150K for a job and then laugh all the way to

the bank as quoted by himself ?

Do not archive

Over and Out

Kingsley

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech



A handicap that degreed Engineers, who are without real world

experience, struggle under is contamination by association. All of

those years getting a degree were spent rubbing shoulders with teachers.

And, as they say "those that can, do, those that can't, teach."

This is not to denigrate either Engineers or teachers.....just a warning

of a systemic problem that is best cured with real world experience,

before or after the degree.

Chuck Jensen

Do Not Archive

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit tech

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