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Todd.Trainor(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:53 am Post subject: Access to service bulletins

Are any of the service bulletins available electronically?  Specially, 90D and 223.  I have spent hours looking on the web and the commander-list archive and have yet to find an online source for Aero Commander SBs.  I've learned that I can purchase the complete set from TCAC for $243. Based on my experience from other type-clubs, I am hoping the common SBs have been scanned by somebody, and possibly, posted to a website.



I am trying to do my research before I consider purchasing a 520 or 560.  (Perhaps I'll have some questions for the group later.) For now, I am interested in SB 90D and 223.  If those SBs don't scare me away, then I might dig deeper.  Eventually, if I become a 520/560 owner, I should invest in the complete set of SBs if the aircraft does not come with them.



Currently, I am considering N527P, 520 sn62, currently in Port Huron, Michigan.  I've been an on-again off-again member of the TCFG, about 6 years ago.  I have always had a passion for the Aero Commander.  I am now at a stage in life where I may have the time and money to own an entry-level Aero Commander.  It would be a dream come true.  I already have the hanger built for a short-wing Commander.  The 47' door width will be no factor, but the 14'3" opening heigth will require a clever solution.



Todd Trainor

Brighton, MI (45G)

810-225-4929

kamala(at)MSN.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: Access to service bulletins

just a cutting torch.

  > From: Todd.Trainor(at)hp.com

 	  Quote: 	
		   To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 06:03:03 +0000

 Subject: Commander-List: Access to service bulletins

 --> Commander-List message posted by: "Trainor, Todd (Storage Practice)" <Todd.Trainor(at)hp.com>

 Are any of the service bulletins available electronically? Specially, 90D and 223. I have spent hours looking on the web and the commander-list archive and have yet to find an online source for Aero Commander SBs. I've learned that I can purchase the complete set from TCAC for $243. Based on my experience from other type-clubs, I am hoping the common SBs have been scanned by somebody, and possibly, posted to a website.

 I am trying to do my research before I consider purchasing a 520 or 560. (Perhaps I'll have some questions for the group later.) For now, I am interested in SB 90D and 223. If those SBs don't scare me away, then I might dig deeper. Eventually, if I become a 520/560 owner, I should invest in the complete set of SBs if the aircraft does not come with them.

 Currently, I am considering N527P, 520 sn62, currently in Port Huron, Michigan. I've been an on-again off-again member of the TCFG, about 6 years ago. I have always had a passion for the Aero Commander. I am now at a stage in life where I may have the time and money to own an entry-level Aero Commander. It would be a dream come true. I already have the hanger built for a short-wing Commander. The 47' door width will be no factor, but the 14'3" opening heigth will require a clever solution.

 Todd Trainor

 Brighton, MI (45G)

 810-225-4929

[quote] 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: Access to service bulletins

I heard through the grapevine you could cut off 2  feet of wing per side, and add them on as winglets by turning them up  vertical... Any comments?

  

  

  

  

 David Owens

Aerial  Viewpoint

N14AV

AC-500A-Colemill

   [quote][b]

brcamp(at)windows.microso
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: Access to service bulletins

As a 520 owner, I would strongly urge that you reflect on the need for a Cleveland brake STC for the 520s, which does not currently exist, as part of the purchase price.   The necessary 2  piston goodyear brake parts have become quite difficult to find, and of course, brakes are very important to the operation of an airplane. I’ve talked to Cleveland, and they are quite supportive.  

   

You may find the generators also to be something to look at.  The STC paperwork (in 1956) for dual generators declared that “the parts listed in this STC are typical. It is believed that any competent mechanic will be able to make the improvisations necessary to produce a successful installation”.  So.. as a result,  the 520s have a variety of different kinds of equipment and a large number of different wiring plans.  While you’re working on the brakes, probably it would make sense to upgrade to Jasco alternators, which would eliminate the carbon pile voltage regulators and a *lot* of generally complex wiring in favour of a very simple and straightforward electrical system which is much easier to balance. Again, Jasco has been very helpful, and there is an STC for an alternator with the GO435 engine, just not for the 520.  

   

In addition, there are currently no modern autopilots certified for the 520, though the 560 has a number of them. Century *may* be willing to work on an STC for that.  The latest A/P for the 520 seems to be the Lear L2.  

   

Otherwise, there are no service bulletins or A/Ds for that matter, which represent major expense/ problem areas, assuming that there are no fatigue issues, which there have not ever been reported in either the 560 or 520.  

   

Just don’t park next to the county Sherriff’s aviation division.  

   

   

            Bruce Campbell  

            AC52 N4186B  

   

       

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of MASON CHEVAILLIER

 Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 4:59 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Access to service bulletins  

  

  

   

just a cutting torch.

 

 

       

  

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Todd.Trainor(at)hp.com

 > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
	


 > Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 06:03:03 +0000

 > Subject: Access to service bulletins

 > 

 > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Trainor, Todd (Storage Practice)" <Todd.Trainor(at)hp.com>

 > 

 > Are any of the service bulletins available electronically? Specially, 90D and 223. I have spent hours looking on the web and the commander-list archive and have yet to find an online source for Aero Commander SBs. I've learned that I can purchase the complete set from TCAC for $243. Based on my experience from other type-clubs, I am hoping the common SBs have been scanned by somebody, and possibly, posted to a website.

 > 

 > I am trying to do my research before I consider purchasing a 520 or 560. (Perhaps I'll have some questions for the group later.) For now, I am interested in SB 90D and 223. If those SBs don't scare me away, then I might dig deeper. Eventually, if I become a 520/560 owner, I should invest in the complete set of SBs if the aircraft does not come with them.

 > 

 > Currently, I am considering N527P, 520 sn62, currently in Port Huron, Michigan. I've been an on-again off-again member of the TCFG, about 6 years ago. I have always had a passion for the Aero Commander. I am now at a stage in life where I may have the time and money to own an entry-level Aero Commander. It would be a dream come true. I already have the hanger built for a short-wing Commander. The 47' door width will be no factor, but the 14'3" opening heigth will require a clever solution.

 > 

 > Todd Trainor

 > Brighton, MI (45G)

 > 810-225-4929

 > 

 > 

 

 > 

 > 

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dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: Access to service bulletins

Geez, thats pretty drastic... which sb or ad has  that option?

  

  

  

  

 David Owens

Aerial  Viewpoint

N14AV

AC-500A-Colemill

   [quote][b]

dongirod

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 140

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: Access to service bulletins

just a cutting torch.

  

  

 My son calls ours the "Blue Wrench" works  everytime.

  

 Don

   [quote][b]

dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:49 am Post subject: Access to service bulletins

Oh, I get it... you mean the hangar...  hehehe

  

  

  

  

 David Owens

Aerial  Viewpoint

N14AV

AC-500A-Colemill

   [quote][b]

Todd.Trainor(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:15 am Post subject: Access to service bulletins

I  read about the accident with the Sherriff department's truck. I winced when I  read it.  Then I read later that you were not sure if you'd part it out or  repair it.  What ended up with that?

  

 Thanks for the great 520 advice. It is starting to sound like the  520 might be more of a project than a 560.   Or, at least, the 560 has  more options available to me in terms of STCs and improvements over the  520.  I am really not looking for a project at this point.  I  spotted a 560 for sale in SC (N2730B) that might be worth investigating some  more if I give up on this 520.  It needs paint and new interior, which I  can probably live with that for a few years.  Ugly is less of a concern  than reliablity.   http://www.controller.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1117909

  

 I  have still had no luck finding the SBs for these aircraft.  Why are they so  hard to find?

 

Todd Trainor, PMP

Project Manager

HP C&I  Storage

810-225-4929   



   From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce  Campbell

Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:33 AM

To:  commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Access to  service bulletins

 

  

As  a 520 owner, I would strongly urge that you reflect on the need for a Cleveland  brake STC for the 520s, which does not currently exist, as part of the purchase  price.   The necessary 2  piston goodyear brake parts have become  quite difficult to find, and of course, brakes are very important to the  operation of an airplane. I’ve talked to Cleveland, and they are quite  supportive. 

  

You  may find the generators also to be something to look at.  The STC paperwork  (in 1956) for dual generators declared that “the parts listed in this STC are  typical. It is believed that any competent mechanic will be able to make the  improvisations necessary to produce a successful installation”.  So.. as a  result,  the 520s have a variety of different kinds of equipment and a  large number of different wiring plans.  While you’re working on the  brakes, probably it would make sense to upgrade to Jasco alternators, which  would eliminate the carbon pile voltage regulators and a *lot* of  generally complex wiring in favour of a very simple and straightforward  electrical system which is much easier to balance. Again, Jasco has been very  helpful, and there is an STC for an alternator with the GO435 engine, just not  for the 520. 

  

In  addition, there are currently no modern autopilots certified for the 520, though  the 560 has a number of them. Century *may* be willing to work on an STC  for that.  The latest A/P for the 520 seems to be the Lear  L2. 

  

Otherwise,  there are no service bulletins or A/Ds for that matter, which represent major  expense/ problem areas, assuming that there are no fatigue issues, which there  have not ever been reported in either the 560 or 520. 

  

Just  don’t park next to the county Sherriff’s aviation  division. 

  

  

             Bruce Campbell 

             AC52 N4186B 

  

    

From:  owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of MASON  CHEVAILLIER

Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 4:59 AM

To:  commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Access to  service bulletins



 

  

just a cutting  torch.

   

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   From:  Todd.Trainor(at)hp.com

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Tue,  18 Dec 2007 06:03:03 +0000

 Subject: Access to service  bulletins

 

 --> Commander-List message posted by: "Trainor,  Todd (Storage Practice)" <Todd.Trainor(at)hp.com>

 

 Are any of  the service bulletins available electronically? Specially, 90D and 223. I have  spent hours looking on the web and the commander-list archive and have yet to  find an online source for Aero Commander SBs. I've learned that I can purchase  the complete set from TCAC for $243. Based on my experience from other  type-clubs, I am hoping the common SBs have been scanned by somebody, and  possibly, posted to a website.

 

 I am trying to do my research  before I consider purchasing a 520 or 560. (Perhaps I'll have some questions for  the group later.) For now, I am interested in SB 90D and 223. If those SBs don't  scare me away, then I might dig deeper. Eventually, if I become a 520/560 owner,  I should invest in the complete set of SBs if the aircraft does not come with  them.

 

 Currently, I am considering N527P, 520 sn62, currently in  Port Huron, Michigan. I've been an on-again off-again member of the TCFG, about  6 years ago. I have always had a passion for the Aero Commander. I am now at a  stage in life where I may have the time and money to own an entry-level Aero  Commander. It would be a dream come true. I already have the hanger built for a  short-wing Commander. The 47' door width will be no factor, but the 14'3"  opening heigth will require a clever solution.

 

 Todd  Trainor

 Brighton, MI (45G)

 810-225-4929

 

  


	


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brcamp(at)windows.microso
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:37 am Post subject: Access to service bulletins

There hard to find because they are old. I might be able to find the paper and scan it. But I haven’t seen anything that was very onerous except the lack of STCs.  Regarding that, though, you might want to be clear *which kind of 560* it is. Different models of 560 have different STC availability, ranging from just as good as the 500s, (for the 560F) to nearly as poor as the 520.   The thing to do is to research those important areas (brakes, autopilots, glass cockpits if you want one) and see if you can do it, and if so how much it will cost, then compare.  

   

But the Cleveland brakes are pretty much a requirement.  Anything you buy you *need* to figure out how to get clevelands onto it. This could be easy or hard, depending on your FSDO and whether you have a DER and some time.  

   

As for 86B, she’s a total. The wing spar was over-stressed, some rivets sheared at the attach fittings,, the control pulleys were pulled out, and the aileron bell cranks were broken off on *both sides*.  I’m still getting the final appraisal.  The inspector recommended (reasonably) that the airframe shouldn’t even be used for parts. I suppose engines, avionics, props etc could, but I need to settle the whole thing.  

   

        Bruce   

       

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Trainor, Todd (Storage Practice)

 Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:12 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Access to service bulletins  

  

  

   

I read about the accident with the Sherriff department's truck. I winced when I read it.  Then I read later that you were not sure if you'd part it out or repair it.  What ended up with that?  

   

Thanks for the great 520 advice. It is starting to sound like the 520 might be more of a project than a 560.   Or, at least, the 560 has more options available to me in terms of STCs and improvements over the 520.  I am really not looking for a project at this point.  I spotted a 560 for sale in SC (N2730B) that might be worth investigating some more if I give up on this 520.  It needs paint and new interior, which I can probably live with that for a few years.  Ugly is less of a concern than reliablity.   http://www.controller.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1117909  

   

I have still had no luck finding the SBs for these aircraft.  Why are they so hard to find?  

Todd Trainor, PMP

 Project Manager

 HP C&I Storage

 810-225-4929     

   

  

       

  

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Campbell

 Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:33 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Access to service bulletins  

As a 520 owner, I would strongly urge that you reflect on the need for a Cleveland brake STC for the 520s, which does not currently exist, as part of the purchase price.   The necessary 2  piston goodyear brake parts have become quite difficult to find, and of course, brakes are very important to the operation of an airplane. I’ve talked to Cleveland, and they are quite supportive.  

   

You may find the generators also to be something to look at.  The STC paperwork (in 1956) for dual generators declared that “the parts listed in this STC are typical. It is believed that any competent mechanic will be able to make the improvisations necessary to produce a successful installation”.  So.. as a result,  the 520s have a variety of different kinds of equipment and a large number of different wiring plans.  While you’re working on the brakes, probably it would make sense to upgrade to Jasco alternators, which would eliminate the carbon pile voltage regulators and a *lot* of generally complex wiring in favour of a very simple and straightforward electrical system which is much easier to balance. Again, Jasco has been very helpful, and there is an STC for an alternator with the GO435 engine, just not for the 520.  

   

In addition, there are currently no modern autopilots certified for the 520, though the 560 has a number of them. Century *may* be willing to work on an STC for that.  The latest A/P for the 520 seems to be the Lear L2.  

   

Otherwise, there are no service bulletins or A/Ds for that matter, which represent major expense/ problem areas, assuming that there are no fatigue issues, which there have not ever been reported in either the 560 or 520.  

   

Just don’t park next to the county Sherriff’s aviation division.  

   

   

            Bruce Campbell  

            AC52 N4186B  

   

       

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of MASON CHEVAILLIER

 Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 4:59 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Access to service bulletins  

  

  

   

just a cutting torch.

 

       

  

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Todd.Trainor(at)hp.com

 > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
	


 > Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 06:03:03 +0000

 > Subject: Access to service bulletins

 > 

 > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Trainor, Todd (Storage Practice)" <Todd.Trainor(at)hp.com>

 > 

 > Are any of the service bulletins available electronically? Specially, 90D and 223. I have spent hours looking on the web and the commander-list archive and have yet to find an online source for Aero Commander SBs. I've learned that I can purchase the complete set from TCAC for $243. Based on my experience from other type-clubs, I am hoping the common SBs have been scanned by somebody, and possibly, posted to a website.

 > 

 > I am trying to do my research before I consider purchasing a 520 or 560. (Perhaps I'll have some questions for the group later.) For now, I am interested in SB 90D and 223. If those SBs don't scare me away, then I might dig deeper. Eventually, if I become a 520/560 owner, I should invest in the complete set of SBs if the aircraft does not come with them.

 > 

 > Currently, I am considering N527P, 520 sn62, currently in Port Huron, Michigan. I've been an on-again off-again member of the TCFG, about 6 years ago. I have always had a passion for the Aero Commander. I am now at a stage in life where I may have the time and money to own an entry-level Aero Commander. It would be a dream come true. I already have the hanger built for a short-wing Commander. The 47' door width will be no factor, but the 14'3" opening heigth will require a clever solution.

 > 

 > Todd Trainor

 > Brighton, MI (45G)

 > 810-225-4929

 > 

 > 

 

 > 

 > 

 >    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com   .matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 	
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      [quote][b]

John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:41 am Post subject: Access to service bulletins

Todd,

Chris Schuermann restored a 520, with tons of help from his A&P/IA dad 

and others. It was still a monumental project. You can read a little 

about it here: http://www.aerocommander.com/Myresto/index.html

I think this is the airplane that Bruce Campbell ended up owning, til 

the Sheriff's office got involved.

There used to be an article floating around called "don't buy an Aero 

Commander" which listed the costs you could expect to ring up. There's a 

link here, but it's broken: 

http://www.aerocommander.com/Documents/index.html

The upshot is, buy it for $30k, invest $150k, end up with an airplane 

worth about $90k, after working your hands to the bone for 2 years +. 

Provided you can find all the parts, and the necessary knowledge to do 

it right.

My advice to you is to buy a newer commander, ready to fly, for which 

parts are still readily available. A 500 A, B, U or S model. Anything 

else and you are going to experience severe financial pains. ALL these 

airplanes are exceptionally good at draining your wallet if you have 

high standards. The older airplanes would strain Warren Buffet's weekend 

"fun" account.

I don't want to maul anyone's buzz, and I LOVE these old airplanes, 

especially the geared ones. I would love to see ALL the available 520s & 

560s & 680s be restored with tons of TLC....but you should really know 

what you're getting into before you do it.

Just my $0.02, but I was in your shoes 9 years ago and decided on a 

ready-to-go 500B. I've never been happier, and in the last 9 years I've 

seen a lot of "let's restore a Commander!" guys end up pretty miserable.

/John

Trainor, Todd (Storage Practice) wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I read about the accident with the Sherriff department's truck. I 

 winced when I read it. Then I read later that you were not sure if 

 you'd part it out or repair it. What ended up with that?

 Thanks for the great 520 advice. It is starting to sound like the 520 

 might be more of a project than a 560. Or, at least, the 560 has more 

 options available to me in terms of STCs and improvements over the 

 520. I am really not looking for a project at this point. I spotted a 

 560 for sale in SC (N2730B) that might be worth investigating some 

 more if I give up on this 520. It needs paint and new interior, which 

 I can probably live with that for a few years. Ugly is less of a 

 concern than reliablity. 

 http://www.controller.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1117909

 I have still had no luck finding the SBs for these aircraft. Why are 

 they so hard to find?

 Todd Trainor, PMP

 Project Manager

 HP C&I Storage

 810-225-4929

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of 

 *Bruce Campbell

 *Sent:* Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:33 AM

 *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* RE: Access to service bulletins

 As a 520 owner, I would strongly urge that you reflect on the need for 

 a Cleveland brake STC for the 520s, which does not currently exist, as 

 part of the purchase price. The necessary 2 piston goodyear brake 

 parts have become quite difficult to find, and of course, brakes are 

 very important to the operation of an airplane. I’ve talked to 

 Cleveland, and they are quite supportive.

 You may find the generators also to be something to look at. The STC 

 paperwork (in 1956) for dual generators declared that “the parts 

 listed in this STC are typical. It is believed that any competent 

 mechanic will be able to make the improvisations necessary to produce 

 a successful installation”. So.. as a result, the 520s have a variety 

 of different kinds of equipment and a large number of different wiring 

 plans. While you’re working on the brakes, probably it would make 

 sense to upgrade to Jasco alternators, which would eliminate the 

 carbon pile voltage regulators and a **lot** of generally complex 

 wiring in favour of a very simple and straightforward electrical 

 system which is much easier to balance. Again, Jasco has been very 

 helpful, and there is an STC for an alternator with the GO435 engine, 

 just not for the 520.

 In addition, there are currently no modern autopilots certified for 

 the 520, though the 560 has a number of them. Century **may** be 

 willing to work on an STC for that. The latest A/P for the 520 seems 

 to be the Lear L2.

 Otherwise, there are no service bulletins or A/Ds for that matter, 

 which represent major expense/ problem areas, assuming that there are 

 no fatigue issues, which there have not ever been reported in either 

 the 560 or 520.

 Just don’t park next to the county Sherriff’s aviation division.

 Bruce Campbell

 AC52 N4186B

 *From:* owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of 

 *MASON CHEVAILLIER

 *Sent:* Tuesday, December 18, 2007 4:59 AM

 *To:* commander-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* RE: Access to service bulletins

 just a cutting torch.

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 > From: Todd.Trainor(at)hp.com

 > To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 > Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 06:03:03 +0000

 > Subject: Access to service bulletins

 >

 > 

 Practice)" <Todd.Trainor(at)hp.com>

 >

 > Are any of the service bulletins available electronically? Specially, 

 90D and 223. I have spent hours looking on the web and the 

 commander-list archive and have yet to find an online source for Aero 

 Commander SBs. I've learned that I can purchase the complete set from 

 TCAC for $243. Based on my experience from other type-clubs, I am 

 hoping the common SBs have been scanned by somebody, and possibly, 

 posted to a website.

 >

 > I am trying to do my research before I consider purchasing a 520 or 

 560. (Perhaps I'll have some questions for the group later.) For now, 

 I am interested in SB 90D and 223. If those SBs don't scare me away, 

 then I might dig deeper. Eventually, if I become a 520/560 owner, I 

 should invest in the complete set of SBs if the aircraft does not come 

 with them.

 >

 > Currently, I am considering N527P, 520 sn62, currently in Port Huron, 

 Michigan. I've been an on-again off-again member of the TCFG, about 6 

 years ago. I have always had a passion for the Aero Commander. I am 

 now at a stage in life where I may have the time and money to own an 

 entry-level Aero Commander. It would be a dream come true. I already 

 have the hanger built for a short-wing Commander. The 47' door width 

 will be no factor, but the 14'3" opening heigth will require a clever 

 solution.

 >

 > Todd Trainor

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brcamp(at)windows.microso
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:04 am Post subject: Access to service bulletins

2 more cents (US$0.02):



Yup. That's the one.  What the web page doesn't mention was that I also had to replace essentially *all* of the instruments, replaced both voltage regulators, replaced the sensors in the heating system (which worked quite well after), put in an intercom, GPS, etc. as well as fabricate an interior (the seats were OK).  After that, the paint was still on the raunchy side, and that was always a problem.  But I had a *really* neat airplane (although it still had some "quirks that needed to be worked out before I'd call it done, and the brakes).



The question of whether the A/C is going to be expensive depends on what you are buying it for.  If this is going to be a project and you enjoy projects, have a sympathetic IA and/or A&P who will support and supervise you, have (or want) then necessary tools and a precision machine shop to fabricate parts if needs be, and a FSDO that will work with you, then a 520 could be a very satisfying machine indeed. It certainly flew well.



But, if the idea of developing your own STCs for long-superseded parts and systems, and generally doing a month's maintenance for a week's flying bugs you, then you really should budget for the newer plane.



BTW, I never had a problem with the engines.  And I *like* the lower prop RPM that geared engines give you.



Regarding the paint:  My experience from a number of airplanes suggests that raunchy paint is a real problem. The issue isn't anything practical, but rather the attitude that people take to your plane.  Raunchy paint seems to cause people to doubt the airworthiness of the A/C itself, even those that should know better. That manifests itself in mechanics taking less care, and FAA inspectors more, than they would with a plane with "nice" aesthetics. Don't underestimate that effect.



             Bruce

--

Todd.Trainor(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: Access to service bulletins

John,



I agree with you.  I am not looking for a project.  While it would be fun to have a project like that, I already have an Aeronca project like that.  In this case, I am looking for an inexpensive (ugly is OK) AC that is realiable.  When I first looked at the 520 in my area (N527P) it was attactive because the engines were low time, the big ADs were done (props and wings) and the price was right.  The hope is to find one I can just fly.  It does not have to be fast or plush, but it does need to be reliable and at low risk of needing lots of work and money.  Now I start learning about brakes, generators, auto-pilots, rare parts, etc, I start to think the risk is going up and up.  Too bad.  I'd really like to own an Aero Commander.  I need to keep looking around for an AC that has the features I need but at an affordable price.  The 560 in SC has Jarco Amps, low-time engines, Brittian B-4 autopilot, props 200 SMOH, etc. It is very ugly, but I can live with that.  I have many more hours of learning and research to do.

Todd Trainor, PMP

Project Manager

HP C&I Storage

810-225-4929

--

rsrandazzo(at)precisionma
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: Access to service bulletins

Todd-



I'll second John's input here.  We bought N414C after a few years of

not-so-well-intentioned ownership and it's taken the equivalent of Warren

Buffet's weekend fun account and 2.5 years of work to make her right again.

Some of the biggest challenges were STC related- and those can slow you to a

crawl unless you have the approvals in your hand before you start.  Our work

stopped for 14 months on account of an STC hangup... if that gives you an

idea.



My experience with FAA has been that they are very cautious about approving

anything on older airplanes without engineering data- and the engineering

data is VERY expensive to obtain at this stage of the airplane's life cycle.

I have a VERY good relationship with my local FSDO- and even with their

interest in seeing me complete this project as originally envisioned- it

took an act of congress to get to the finish line.  (Now you all know.  It's

true.  Congress was focused on my Commander while the country was going to

h**l.  Sorry... I won't let it happen again!)



Robert Randazzo



--

rsrandazzo(at)precisionma
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:12 pm Post subject: Access to service bulletins

Todd-



Sounds like you already figured this out but:  You came to the right place

to get good advice.



I've always appreciated the fact that folks on this list are ardent

supporters of commanders- but they aren't misty eyed.  They'll tell it like

they see it.



Robert Randazzo

--

Todd.Trainor(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: Access to service bulletins

Thank you everybody for your advice.  I spent weeks researching the web for information, but found very little good information.  On the other type club email lists I attend, I am not appreciative of questions asked by newbies who didn't even attempt to find the answer by search the list's archive or other web sources.  In this case I tried, but found nothing.  Not even one service bulletin.  That is a big red flag.



I must admit, that I am discouraged in believing that I can own an affordable, older model Aero Commander.  If money is no factor, then I might consider it, for nostalgic reasons.  However, I need to be practical.  I'm feeling that I need to consider an affordable Apache, 310, or Seneca.   Maybe tomorrow I will wake up with renewed optimism.



BTW, the broken links in the page provided below (http://www.aerocommander.com/Documents/index.html) could be fixed at the address bar by removing the redundant "/Document" in the address.  So I was able to read all the documents.  Especially the one "Don't By and Aero Commander."



Todd Trainor, PMP

Project Manager

HP C&I Storage

810-225-4929



--

John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: Access to service bulletins

Robert,



I will say that I've been in & around your airplane since it arrived at 

Morris', and I think you'll be stoked when you see the quality of work 

that's gone into it! '



Also, Morris gave me a tour of your Chelton glass panel. I REALLY like 

it.....oh, for an unlimited budget.....or maybe a little piece of Warren 

Buffet's weekend account....



/J



Robert S. Randazzo wrote:

[quote] 



 Todd-



 I'll second John's input here.  We bought N414C after a few years of

 not-so-well-intentioned ownership and it's taken the equivalent of Warren

 Buffet's weekend fun account and 2.5 years of work to make her right again.

 Some of the biggest challenges were STC related- and those can slow you to a

 crawl unless you have the approvals in your hand before you start.  Our work

 stopped for 14 months on account of an STC hangup... if that gives you an

 idea.



 My experience with FAA has been that they are very cautious about approving

 anything on older airplanes without engineering data- and the engineering

 data is VERY expensive to obtain at this stage of the airplane's life cycle.

 I have a VERY good relationship with my local FSDO- and even with their

 interest in seeing me complete this project as originally envisioned- it

 took an act of congress to get to the finish line.  (Now you all know.  It's

 true.  Congress was focused on my Commander while the country was going to

 h**l.  Sorry... I won't let it happen again!)



 Robert Randazzo



 --

John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:06 pm Post subject: Access to service bulletins

Todd,



Don't despair...yet. If you're willing to spend the money on a 310 or 

Apache, a 500-series Commander would still be within reach; and I think 

the Commander is FAR superior to both those airplanes!



And I think a Seneca shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as 

Commander.



/J



Trainor, Todd (Storage Practice) wrote:

[quote] 



 Thank you everybody for your advice.  I spent weeks researching the web for information, but found very little good information.  On the other type club email lists I attend, I am not appreciative of questions asked by newbies who didn't even attempt to find the answer by search the list's archive or other web sources.  In this case I tried, but found nothing.  Not even one service bulletin.  That is a big red flag.



 I must admit, that I am discouraged in believing that I can own an affordable, older model Aero Commander.  If money is no factor, then I might consider it, for nostalgic reasons.  However, I need to be practical.  I'm feeling that I need to consider an affordable Apache, 310, or Seneca.   Maybe tomorrow I will wake up with renewed optimism.



 BTW, the broken links in the page provided below (http://www.aerocommander.com/Documents/index.html) could be fixed at the address bar by removing the redundant "/Document" in the address.  So I was able to read all the documents.  Especially the one "Don't By and Aero Commander."



 Todd Trainor, PMP

 Project Manager

 HP C&I Storage

 810-225-4929



 --

brcamp(at)windows.microso
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:06 pm Post subject: Access to service bulletins

Before giving up on commanders, remember the same issues apply to the Apache (especially), Seneca, or 310. Each of them have their quirks.  There is an excellent article in the Aviation Consumer Guide to Used Aircraft on each of them. They have things to watch out for, also.  The good news regarding the commanders is excellent support from the type club (as you see) and the manufacturer.   Also, the prices for things tend to be reasonable, which is not always the case in the others (I used to own a Bonanza, and the parts prices were often astronomical, with nothing like the support I've gotten from TCAC).



It just that there are trade offs to be aware of, with any older aircraft.  I certainly understand your frustrations. The aviation business seems to be rapidly turning into a game for millionaires. But the willingness to put in effort (including carefully researching the options, as you are doing) counts for a lot.



          Bruce



--

dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: Access to service bulletins

here here





David Owens

Aerial Viewpoint

N14AV

AC-500A-Colemill

rsrandazzo(at)precisionma
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: Access to service bulletins

John-



Yes- she's in fine shape, eh?  Thanks for your kind comments.



Most all of that work was done on our field and thus far I'm pretty happy

with it.  We have a running joke that the only original part left is the

data plate.



The airplane has to regain my confidence still- but after 7hrs or so of test

flying- she was well on her way to being forgiven past transgressions.  My

flight to Morris' facility to get the wing spar inspection completed was the

shortest 35 minute flight in my life.  I so thoroughly enjoyed myself I was

wishing I'd boarded more fuel!



I had intended to pick her up last week- but came down with a cold.  This

week it is supposed to snow until Friday- so I may be headed there on Friday

morning. <fingers crossed>  I can't wait to have her back!



The panel layout was designed by me- and I'm very pleased with how it came

out.  It wasn't cheap- but it wasn't in the Warren Buffet category either.

:-p



It is SO nice to say:  She's finally finished!!!!!



Robert Randazzo

--

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