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Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit

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craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject: Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit

After reading what Steve Weston found on the bolt holes in the spar of his

quick-built kit I decided to check mine. I face a different problem but it

is just as frustrating.



I have oversized holes in the center spar. The worst are the outer four (two

per side) that pass through the vertical angles which tie the spar to the

fuselage sides (6B13-1). Mine vary between 0.3205 and 0.3245. My guess is

that they were enlarged when they were drilling the matching holes through

the upright angles. The inner eight range between 0.3140 and 0.3175. I'm

still trying to decide if these are too far out. The twelve holes in the

wing spars appear to be within spec.



Accurately measuring these holes is difficult. After using the same tools to

measure a regular AN5 bolt and a home-made taper gauge I am confident in the

*relative* readings. And an AN5 bolts is very loose in the worst holes. I

cross-checked my readings with the shank of a letter "O" ("oh") drill

(0.3145 on my micrometer).



During the holidays I sent an e-mail to ZAC describing the situation and

Rodger called me the morning after the holidays ended. We both agree that

the four worst holes have to be fixed. He is working to come up with what

gap is acceptable so we can decide if the remaining 8 holes are usable. ZAC

is also getting a set of size gauges so we can accurately measure holes on a

sampling of planes. I've ordered a few close-tolerance AN175 bolts to see

how they fit.



For me I think the best way to work on the problem holes is to remove the

center spar from the fuselage, bolt it to each wing in turn and use a

portable drill press or guide to drill and ream. One trick will be

maintaining the position of the vertical angles on the spar. In the QBK each

is held to the center spar with a pair of blind rivets. So I'll probably

take the whole assembly out as a piece. This will allow me to ream the

outermost four holes as a piece.



I would urge anyone with a factory-built spar or QBK to check these holes -

both size and alignment.



-- Craig

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:17 am Post subject: Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit

Does this mean that all of you wonder if there really is a Dog?



do not archive



Craig Payne <craig(at)craigandjean.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" 



After reading what Steve Weston found on the bolt holes in the spar of his

quick-built kit I decided to check mine. I face a different problem but it

is just as frustrating.



I have oversized holes in the center spar. The worst are the outer four (two

per side) that pass through the vertical angles which tie the spar to the

fuselage sides (6B13-1). Mine vary between 0.3205 and 0.3245. My guess is

that they were enlarged when they were drilling the matching holes through

the upright angles. The inner eight range between 0.3140 and 0.3175. I'm

still trying to decide if these are too far out. The twelve  holes in the

wing spars appear to be within spec.



Accurately measuring these holes is difficult. After using the same tools to

measure a regular AN5 bolt and a home-made taper gauge I am confident in the

*relative* readings. And an AN5 bolts is very loose in the worst holes. I

cross-checked my readings with the shank of a letter "O" ("oh") drill

(0.3145 on my micrometer).



During the holidays I sent an e-mail to ZAC describing the situation and

Rodger called me the morning after the holidays ended. We both agree that

the four worst holes have to be fixed. He is working to come up with what

gap is acceptable so we can decide if the remaining 8 holes are usable. ZAC

is also getting a set of size gauges so we can accurately measure holes on a

sampling of planes. I've ordered a few close-tolerance AN175 bolts to see

how they fit.



For me I think the best way to work on the problem holes is to remove the

center spar from       Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:57 am Post subject: Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit

Craig



Zenith is debating on how to "fix" my problem also.

I m waiting on their answer.  I pulled the last rivet ( the golden rivet) 

this past weekenf and dont really want to tear into my interior paint to do 

the fix that you say.   I guess it might need to be done, but by who ??

I paid Nine Thousand dollars more than the standard kit price just so the 

critical parts would be completed by people who know what they are doing.

Of all the screwups that could have happened, it had to be on , what I say 

is ithe most critical part, the main attach for the wing. Zenith has told me 

that they want to and will take care of the problem.......

I expect Zenith to call soon.  I will post the results here and let you know 

what happened....

Steve W

---

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit

Hi Steve,



I feel your pain.



My own reasons for building a Zodiac are more about building than 

flying, so I understand your choices can and should be different from 

my own.  That said, I feel I can trust my own work better than that 

of factory workers whose primary attractiveness is based on their low 

wages.  Most (all?) of the quick build kits for all the kit 

manufacturers are assembled in far off developing countries.  I'm 

sure the kit companies make valiant efforts to insure high quality 

work, but all the comments I have heard recently about the spar 

attach holes being oversized don't surprise me a great deal.



I am not completely sure, but I think drilling out the holes to the 

next bolt size and reaming them should be a relatively easy 

task.  The secret is choosing the correct drill size and type of 

reamer.  When I did a similar task on my replacement wing spar, I 

used hard steel drill guides from McMaster-Carr and a hand reamer 

with left spiral and right hand cut.  The reaming was the easiest 

part of the operation.  In your case, the already aligned holes 

should guide the drill bit and reamer so the biggest problem is to 

get them properly positioned for their work while standing on your 

head in the cockpit.



I don't have any idea what to expect from ZAC about fixing this 

problem.  Hopefully, they will do more quality control on the QBKs 

received from their contractor.  After the kits leave their factory 

it seems a difficult task to get them to fix the problem.  The travel 

for a technician to get to your shop or the difficulty of returning 

the fuselage to their factory both seem a lot more than for you to 

drill and ream the holes.  I might ask them to supply or pay for the 

reamer which may cost as much as $50 or so, but that might prove 

difficult to manage as well.



One last comment.  When I ordered my replacement wing spar, I learned 

these parts are not made by Zenith.  All the complete spar and 

carry-through sets were made by Zenair in Canada.  That means the 

folks at Zenith don't have much more experience than you do in match 

drilling the spars.



Good luck,



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive.



At 04:56 AM 1/4/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Zenith is debating on how to "fix" my problem also.

I m waiting on their answer.  I pulled the last rivet ( the golden 

rivet) this past weekenf and dont really want to tear into my 

interior paint to do the fix that you say.   I guess it might need 

to be done, but by who ??

I paid Nine Thousand dollars more than the standard kit price just 

so the critical parts would be completed by people who know what 

they are doing.

Of all the screwups that could have happened, it had to be on , what 

I say is ithe most critical part, the main attach for the wing. 

Zenith has told me that they want to and will take care of the problem.......

I expect Zenith to call soon.  I will post the results here and let 

you know what happened....

Steve W

John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit

Paul,

Not ALL the offshore folks building kit aircraft can be lumped into your 

generalization.

I'm doing the final assembly of an F1 Team Rocket for a client and it 

started life as a QB kit from the Czech Republic.   The workmanship is 

Beechcraft quality or better, everything fits, no scratches,dents or dings, 

rivets flush, bolt holes snug, edges perfectly straight etc.  Whoever put 

this one together it wasn't his/her first rodeo.



It will be interesting to see how Zenith fixes this serious situation with 

the sloppy holes. On my RV 3 I used tapered pins which I could ream with  a 

hand held drill down to the last few turns which I did by hand with a guide. 

Worked so far (2000+ hrs)

LO&SLO  John



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Steve,>

  That said, I feel I can trust my own work better than that
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   of factory workers whose primary attractiveness is based on their low 

 wages.  Most (all?) of the quick build kits for all the kit manufacturers 

 are assembled in far off developing countries.  I'm sure the kit companies 

 make valiant efforts to insure high quality work, but all the comments I 

 have heard recently about the spar attach holes being oversized don't 

 surprise me a great deal.

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit

Mine isn't a QBK so all this may not effect me. But as I will be mounting my wings soon I have this question.



If the holes are to big why not just go up in size of bolt?

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit

In Steve's case all 12 holes are large. Since the spars are made and

match-reamed in the far off land of Canada these holes were never

"processed" in Columbia.



-- Craig



--

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit

 	  Quote: 	
		   If the holes are to big why not just go up in size of bolt?


	


That is the likely solution being discussed. But the wing and center spars

are match reamed and enlarging the holes from AN5 to AN6 on a

nearly-complete plane is difficult. The first step is to establish just

exactly what tolerance the holes should meet. The second step is to acquire

the tools to accurately measure the existing holes. Something like this:



www.grizzly.com/products/g9794



-- Craig

cj.tremblay(at)videotron.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit

I Greg  

   

If it can help you, you can visit my own web site at the followings page link below. I am not a specialist but I think my own experience can help you. Don’t hesitate to ask me questions.  

   

I  build my CH640 from plan and I had drilled all holes myself, my wing spars to my Center Web Spar. I did it with a modified drill press, because my specific need for it, and also my drill press dimension itself. ( I change the center steel tube for a short one)  

   

I clamped all pieces with C clamp, and fixed tight all pieces that need to be fixed by the 3/8 an bolts, including uprights during the drilling job. I drilled the 12 holes without move any pieces in the drilling process. Your process will be a little bit more simple, your holes are already positioning, you will need to drill one regular hole and one reamer pass only, without any angle or length alignment  spars measurement required. (Supposed to be done correctly – just verified that in case).  

   

I suggest you to remove your center web spar and align all spars on a flat table. For the bolts dimension is a more tricky questions. Do we have something between AN5 and AN6 ? And I think you need a good stress advise (from specialist) to changes to next AN size, the problem is do you have end off material on side spars and between AN6 bolts?  

   

   

Good luck my friend,  

   

   

See my web site for more details and photos.  

   

   

Christian Tremblay  

A guy who build a CH640 aircraft from plan  

[b]http://www.zodiac640.com/[/b]  

   

http://www.zodiac640.com/Wing.htm  

http://www.zodiac640.com/Photographies/wing_spar_assbl_4.JPG  

   

   

   

   

-----Message d'origine-----

 De : owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Craig Payne

 Envoyé : Friday, January 04, 2008 1:13 AM

 À : zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Objet : Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit  

   

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>  

   

After reading what Steve Weston found on the bolt holes in the spar of his  

quick-built kit I decided to check mine. I face a different problem but it  

is just as frustrating.  

   

I have oversized holes in the center spar. The worst are the outer four (two  

per side) that pass through the vertical angles which tie the spar to the  

fuselage sides (6B13-1). Mine vary between 0.3205 and 0.3245. My guess is  

that they were enlarged when they were drilling the matching holes through  

the upright angles. The inner eight range between 0.3140 and 0.3175. I'm  

still trying to decide if these are too far out. The twelve holes in the  

wing spars appear to be within spec.  

   

Accurately measuring these holes is difficult. After using the same tools to  

measure a regular AN5 bolt and a home-made taper gauge I am confident in the  

*relative* readings. And an AN5 bolts is very loose in the worst holes. I  

cross-checked my readings with the shank of a letter "O" ("oh") drill  

(0.3145 on my micrometer).  

   

During the holidays I sent an e-mail to ZAC describing the situation and  

Rodger called me the morning after the holidays ended. We both agree that  

the four worst holes have to be fixed. He is working to come up with what  

gap is acceptable so we can decide if the remaining 8 holes are usable. ZAC  

is also getting a set of size gauges so we can accurately measure holes on a  

sampling of planes. I've ordered a few close-tolerance AN175 bolts to see  

how they fit.  

   

For me I think the best way to work on the problem holes is to remove the  

center spar from the fuselage, bolt it to each wing in turn and use a  

portable drill press or guide to drill and ream. One trick will be  

maintaining the position of the vertical angles on the spar. In the QBK each  

is held to the center spar with a pair of blind rivets. So I'll probably  

take the whole assembly out as a piece. This will allow me to ream the  

outermost four holes as a piece.  

   

I would urge anyone with a factory-built spar or QBK to check these holes -  

both size and alignment.  

   

-- Craig

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit

Thanks for the advice and links. Park of the problem is that (this being a quick build kit) the wings are done too. So I can’t lay all three sections on a flat surface to do the work.  

   

-- Craig  

       

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christian Tremblay

 Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 3:29 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit  

  

  

   

I Greg  

   

If it can help you, you can visit my own web site at the followings page link below. I am not a specialist but I think my own experience can help you. Don’t hesitate to ask me questions.  

   

I  build my CH640 from plan and I had drilled all holes myself, my wing spars to my Center Web Spar. I did it with a modified drill press, because my specific need for it, and also my drill press dimension itself. ( I change the center steel tube for a short one)  

   

I clamped all pieces with C clamp, and fixed tight all pieces that need to be fixed by the 3/8 an bolts, including uprights during the drilling job. I drilled the 12 holes without move any pieces in the drilling process. Your process will be a little bit more simple, your holes are already positioning, you will need to drill one regular hole and one reamer pass only, without any angle or length alignment  spars measurement required. (Supposed to be done correctly – just verified that in case).  

   

I suggest you to remove your center web spar and align all spars on a flat table. For the bolts dimension is a more tricky questions. Do we have something between AN5 and AN6 ? And I think you need a good stress advise (from specialist) to changes to next AN size, the problem is do you have end off material on side spars and between AN6 bolts?  

   

   

Good luck my friend,  

   

   

See my web site for more details and photos.  

   

   

Christian Tremblay  

A guy who build a CH640 aircraft from plan  

http://www.zodiac640.com/  

   

http://www.zodiac640.com/Wing.htm  

http://www.zodiac640.com/Photographies/wing_spar_assbl_4.JPG  

   

   

   

   

-----Message d'origine-----

 De : owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Craig Payne

 Envoyé : Friday, January 04, 2008 1:13 AM

 À : zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Objet : Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit  

   

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>  

   

After reading what Steve Weston found on the bolt holes in the spar of his  

quick-built kit I decided to check mine. I face a different problem but it  

is just as frustrating.  

   

I have oversized holes in the center spar. The worst are the outer four (two  

per side) that pass through the vertical angles which tie the spar to the  

fuselage sides (6B13-1). Mine vary between 0.3205 and 0.3245. My guess is  

that they were enlarged when they were drilling the matching holes through  

the upright angles. The inner eight range between 0.3140 and 0.3175. I'm  

still trying to decide if these are too far out. The twelve holes in the  

wing spars appear to be within spec.  

   

Accurately measuring these holes is difficult. After using the same tools to  

measure a regular AN5 bolt and a home-made taper gauge I am confident in the  

*relative* readings. And an AN5 bolts is very loose in the worst holes. I  

cross-checked my readings with the shank of a letter "O" ("oh") drill  

(0.3145 on my micrometer).  

   

During the holidays I sent an e-mail to ZAC describing the situation and  

Rodger called me the morning after the holidays ended. We both agree that  

the four worst holes have to be fixed. He is working to come up with what  

gap is acceptable so we can decide if the remaining 8 holes are usable. ZAC  

is also getting a set of size gauges so we can accurately measure holes on a  

sampling of planes. I've ordered a few close-tolerance AN175 bolts to see  

how they fit.  

   

For me I think the best way to work on the problem holes is to remove the  

center spar from the fuselage, bolt it to each wing in turn and use a  

portable drill press or guide to drill and ream. One trick will be  

maintaining the position of the vertical angles on the spar. In the QBK each  

is held to the center spar with a pair of blind rivets. So I'll probably  

take the whole assembly out as a piece. This will allow me to ream the  

outermost four holes as a piece.  

   

I would urge anyone with a factory-built spar or QBK to check these holes -  

both size and alignment.  

   

-- Craig  

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

       [quote][b]

Martin Pohl

Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: CH-8645 Jona SG, Switzerland

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit

Craig, how about installing the wings with the normal AN5-bolts, then check wing dihedral, then ream and install one by one of the bolts to the larger AN6?



What do others think about this procedure?



I have a CZAW-QBK, but did not check the bolt holes yet (although I am somewhat scared now to do that   ).



Cheers Martin

_________________
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
http://www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL/Main.html

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit

i think it is a great idea.



Juan



--

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit

I also "think" this is the way out of my problem.  I bet Zenith suggests 

this very method for a cure.  But,,,  getting a drill motor along the two 

bolts that are next to the fuselage skin will be a pain....

I could just do it!  However I think Zenith needs to tell me EXACTLY what 

they want me to do...  "They" drilled the holes.  They didnt find the 

error......

SW

---

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit

My take is that drilling out the many rivets and removing the center spar

from the fuselage is a low-risk operation. And I feel it will greatly

increase my chances of doing the best job I can at drilling and reaming the

offending holes. But before I touch anything I'm going to use precision hole

gauges to measure all the holes and measure a sampling of close tolerance

bolts. All the needed items should be in my hands by next Wednesday.



Stay tuned.



-- Craig



--

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:54 pm Post subject: Oversized spar bolt holes in a quick-build kit

Hi Craig.

I agree with you.  I will also receive the hole gauges from Zenith next 

week.

But, we spent a great amount of money to buy the QBK and I think Zenith owes 

us a partial refund.

SW

---

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