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SkySteve

Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Huntsville, UT

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

I am planning a new color and design scheme for my plane.  My wife is a painter of fine art so I consulted with her regarding both.  While we were looking at the various colors of tubes of oil paint she has, I discovered a great discrepancy in the weight of different colors, with white being the heaviest.  Red seemed to be very light weight.



Is this true with airplane paint also?  Are there colors that are much heavier than others?  If so, which colors are light weight and which colors are heavy weight?  Also, how much weight (approx) will any paint job add to a Kitfox?



Seems to me I remember years ago an airlines (I think it was Braniff) repainted their fleet and actually had to remove seats to accommodate the extra weight of the paint.

_________________
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

I'm not sure of airplane paint, but your mention of red being very  

light in weight reminded me that red is, or was, the worst color for  

fading. It seems to attract light, UV, or whatever, and fades badly.  

One look at old barns, for example, will show the fading of the red  

color. I've seen lots of red cars that will show fading long before  

cars of equal age but painted a different color.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/475+ hrs

do not archive

On Feb 22, 2008, at 4:53 PM, SkySteve wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I am planning a new color and design scheme for my plane.  My wife  

 is a painter of fine art so I consulted with her regarding both.   

 While we were looking at the various colors of tubes of oil paint  

 she has, I discovered a great discrepancy in the weight of  

 different colors, with white being the heaviest.  Red seemed to be  

 very light weight.



 Is this true with airplane paint also?  Are there colors that are  

 much heavier than others?  If so, which colors are light weight and  

 which colors are heavy weight?  Also, how much weight (approx) will  

 any paint job add to a Kitfox?



 Seems to me I remember years ago an airlines (I think it was  

 Braniff) repainted their fleet and actually had to remove seats to  

 accommodate the extra weight of the paint.



 --------

 Steve Wilson

 Huntsville, UT

 Kitfox I-IV 85DD

 912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive

 Convertable Nosewheel &amp; Tailwheel





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165623#165623

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

 	  Quote: 	
		  Also, how much weight (approx) will any paint job add to a Kitfox? 	




Steve, I don't know about different weights for different colors.  Of course the paint is much lighter dry than it is in liquid form due to the solvents evaporating.  I do know that a wise old airplane builder once told me "Fancy paint jobs are heavy".

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

SkySteve

Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Huntsville, UT

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

Lynn, I agree that red seems to fade very easily.  And Tom, it makes sense that dry paint is very much lighter than wet paint.  Of course, all of the paint we examined was wet, of equal amount.  But there was a very large difference in weight, I mean the white was 2 to 3 times heavier than some other colors.  Blue was also very light weight.

_________________
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel

kerrimikehickman(at)aol.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

Hi Steve, 

   I've flown for 25 years, from Cessna 150s thru many Air Force birds thru commercial Boeings/Airbus types.  Now in Airbus 320s and a yellow Series 6 Kitfox (good thing for the kitfox or I'd lose touch with "real flying" and the real flying community).

 

   Our fox is a great airplane design, but so drag-laden compared to a clean airframe design that to me personally it makes no difference what paint is used.  

 

 There would be many other theoretical changes to approach before I'd sacrifice the cool-factor available with an experimental aircraft paint job.  (gap seals, aerodynamic fairings everywhere, vortex generators, winglets/drooped tips, prop choice/pitch adjustments, etc... 

 

 The paint is what makes this type of project personal, and a man's paint job is a reflection of personality over functionality.  

 

 -Now on the other hand is a personality like my brother's.  He's into ultra-light backpacking; his sleeping bag may be cold, but it only weighs 14 oz. and packs into a fist-sized ball.  To sacrifice pack weight he cut the handle off his plastic eating spoon, counts out his bio-degradable t.p. squares down to the pre-documented necessity, and relies on nasty (but light) iodine tablets instead of a water pump to take care of his creek water.  In other words, he is a weight fanatic...not that there's anything wrong with that. His weight savings gives him great pride and possibly an easier trip up the mountain.

 The somewhat diluted point being, a man's paint job is a personal thing.

 (by the way, American Airlines still seems to have their fleet unpainted. The weight savings at that scale and when almost everything else is aerodynamic equates to a great fuel savings/especially when burning over 3000 gal/hr).

 

 Good luck w/your decision.  By the way, I always wanted to have some nose-art painted on my Series 6...Something slinky in honor of the WWII birds/pilots. Must be nice having an artist in the family.

 

 Mike Hickman

 Series 6

 Longmont, CO

 

 --

SkySteve

Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Huntsville, UT

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

Mike,

Point well put.  And maybe I will do a little creative design. . . hmm, let's see . . .

_________________
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

205AK is red and to get an even color on all of the parts you have to paint

the whole plane white then go ontop of that with the red.  It adds just that

much more weight

--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

I guess that it is only reasonable to assume that different pigments made from different compounds would have different weights.  For example I think the white pigment is usually lead, zinc or titanium compounds....  all pretty heavy.  Iron oxides are the basis for some red paints and are a little lighter.  Black paint which it is only reasonable to assume would be the heaviest... heavy colour and all that is actually quite light because most of it is soot, or more correctly carbon.  

   

Just for fun try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigment  different colours are hyperlinks to additional pages...    

   

Now for a question for Lynn...  You have been in the photographic industry long enough to know this...  when colour photos fade what colour do they fade to?    

   

Another question... if it is true that red fades faster why do farmers ever paint their barns a colour that would require more work??  After you think of an idea or two look at http://people.howstuffworks.com/question635.htm  

   

FWIW my plane isn’t white and red, but white with Day-Glo orange with navy blue trim.  I haven’t found where the builder got the day glo.  

   

   

   

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C8758F.AFAE7BC0[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

Draw up your nose art on your computer and have an auto customizer make decals...  That way if you get a scratch in the wring place you can always replace the nose art the same as original.  This is the piece I did up and e-mailed to a shop about sixty road miles away.  It’s now on the tail of my plane.  

     

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C87594.F122ABD0[/img]  

[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01C87595.91AF97C0[/img]  

   

   

[img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01C87595.91AF97C0[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

     

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of kerrimikehickman(at)aol.com

 Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 7:58 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Weight Affected by Color of Plane  

  

     



 Good luck w/your decision.  By the way, I always wanted to have some nose-art painted on my Series 6...Something slinky in honor of the WWII birds/pilots. Must be nice having an artist in the family.

 

 Mike Hickman

 Series 6

 Longmont, CO

 

 

   

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

On Feb 22, 2008, at 6:45 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Now for a question for Lynn...  You have been in the photographic  

 industry long enough to know this...  when colour photos fade what  

 colour do they fade to?  

  It seems like they fade to a yellowish green, The cyan layer is  
	


usually the first to go, if I recall correctly. Of course cyan is  

bluish, and...oh, damn, I'm forgetting my additive and subtractive  

colors....     And of course there's a difference, isn't there, as to  

whether you're talking about a fading transparency or a fading  

print.................I think. : )

  I recall a study where they tested slides in both Kodachrome and  

Ektachrome, and prints in Cibachrome, Ektaflex?, Ektacolor?, (can't  

believe I've forgotten so much photo stuff in 7 years) to see whether  

they faded more in the dark or in the light and what kind of  

light....fluorescent, tungsten or daylight. I think the dark speaks  

for itself.



Ok, Professor Noel, I'm just rambling here, as it's obvious I don't  

know the answer and I'm just hoping the bell will ring and I can  

escape to my airplane and leave this embarrassment behind. : )



(please do not archive my stupidity) : )

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Another question... if it is true that red fades faster why do  

 farmers ever paint their barns a colour that would require more  

 work??  After you think of an idea or two look at http:// 

 people.howstuffworks.com/question635.htm

   Dunno, but one theory I heard was that early barns were painted  
	


with available colors....earth tones, made from red clay?

I drive by a faded metal barn almost every day that is almost back to  

the parent metal color, and that's what reminds me of the fading  

issues with the color red.

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/475+ hrs

do not archive

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

So, it's all sort of vaguely interesting, since I  need paint and I need the UV blocking layers etc. Does anybody have any HARD  figures about how much heavier a white plane is than your favourite colour in  it's finished state? Mine is silver, red, black, and cub yellow on the legacy  parts. On the newly covered parts it's all yellow. I thought about having  band-aids airbrushed on but I'll never actually do it. 

  

  

 Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582

do not archive

 [quote]   ---

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Dave G. [occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca]

 Does anybody have any HARD figures about how much heavier a white plane is than

 your favourite colour in it's finished state?


	


I don't want to open a can of worms and ... I don't know anything about industrial paints but I had an art education and still paint with acrylic or oil. What makes the different in weight is the pigment used and there are so many of them. Even white can be many different things. I think you should look at that before drawing hasty conclusions. 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

do not archive

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

You were right the first time the reds (Magentia) layer always fades first

leaving a green/cyan image...  I 've restored thousands of them...  Some are

easier than others.



The link led to the answer th farmers used rust to make their paint with

linseed oil...  Teh rust Iron oxide acted as an anti fungus in the paint.



A farmer told me that one..  The site confirmed it



Enjoy your flight



Noel ... in the cold



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

Noel,

You answered a life long question about the early farmers red paint, it

makes sense now.

I was not worried about weight on my plane until the local guys gave me

fits. I measured the weight on the last coats on my plane, the red added 8

lbs to the plane per coat. I have not had any fade in ten years, although it

did turn a shade darker than it was. I use sunscreen once a year and it sat

out for 3 summers at high altitude. 



Oh yea stits dope.



John Oakley

Speedster 912ul cap

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

I totally agree with you Michel.  However when you consider the amount of

pigment that is put into a gallon of paint I think the weight difference

would be miniscule.  With a good set of analytical scales you would be able

to see the difference otherwise the difference would be for all intents and

purposes zero.  The difference in the weight per CC of the pigment can be

more than made up with the thickness of the coat.



I also have to disagree with the guy who said to paint a plane red he would

first have to paint it white so he would have two layers of paint on his

plane.  I have no doubt if he wanted to have white stripes on his plane that

would be the way to go as the red would show through the white...  Better

yet use yellow stripes.  It is my experience that darker colours show

through lighter colours that is why in art the wash (base) is generally a

white or light colour and shadows are added to increase contrast...  If you

had a red plane and wanted it white you would have to give it several coats

to cover the red..  to go from UV block to red should only take one coat.

It is true though some metallic paint jobs use a light primer to add sparkle

to the final finish.

I don't want to open a can of worms and ... I don't know anything about

industrial paints but I had an art education and still paint with acrylic or

oil. What makes the different in weight is the pigment used and there are so

many of them. Even white can be many different things. I think you should

look at that before drawing hasty conclusions. 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

do not archive

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

Maybe the interested party should call the paint supplier?

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/475+ hrs

do not archive

On Feb 23, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > From: Dave G. [occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca]

> Does anybody have any HARD figures about how much heavier a white  

> plane is than

> your favourite colour in it's finished state?

 I don't want to open a can of worms and ... I don't know anything  

 about industrial paints but I had an art education and still paint  

 with acrylic or oil. What makes the different in weight is the  

 pigment used and there are so many of them. Even white can be many  

 different things. I think you should look at that before drawing  

 hasty conclusions.

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

 do not archive

 <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

 List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 forums.matronics.com</a>

 www.matronics.com/contribution</a>

 </b></font></pre>

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

I was told by Poly-Fiber that in order to paint my plane orange, I  

should first cover the Poly-Spray with a coat of white, otherwise the  

orange would a have a hard time covering the silver, and the results  

would not be a bright orange, but kinda dull. I'm sure the sale of an  

extra gallon of white wasn't the only reason for that advice.  

Besides, I left a good deal of the wings white, so painting the whole  

thing white to begin with made doing the masking a great deal easier.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/475+ hrs



On Feb 23, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I totally agree with you Michel.  However when you consider the  

 amount of

 pigment that is put into a gallon of paint I think the weight  

 difference

 would be miniscule.  With a good set of analytical scales you would  

 be able

 to see the difference otherwise the difference would be for all  

 intents and

 purposes zero.  The difference in the weight per CC of the pigment  

 can be

 more than made up with the thickness of the coat.



 I also have to disagree with the guy who said to paint a plane red  

 he would

 first have to paint it white so he would have two layers of paint  

 on his

 plane.  I have no doubt if he wanted to have white stripes on his  

 plane that

 would be the way to go as the red would show through the white...   

 Better

 yet use yellow stripes.  It is my experience that darker colours show

 through lighter colours that is why in art the wash (base) is  

 generally a

 white or light colour and shadows are added to increase  

 contrast...  If you

 had a red plane and wanted it white you would have to give it  

 several coats

 to cover the red..  to go from UV block to red should only take one  

 coat.

 It is true though some metallic paint jobs use a light primer to  

 add sparkle

 to the final finish.

 I don't want to open a can of worms and ... I don't know anything  

 about

 industrial paints but I had an art education and still paint with  

 acrylic or

 oil. What makes the different in weight is the pigment used and  

 there are so

 many of them. Even white can be many different things. I think you  

 should

 look at that before drawing hasty conclusions.



 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

 do not archive

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

Steve, it would be simple enough to go into any automotive paint supply with 

your handy dandy scale under your arm, grab a few assorted gallons of paint 

and weigh them.  If you decide to do that, it would be interesting to hear 

your report.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough 

to

take everything you have."

-Thomas Jefferson



---

SkySteve

Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Huntsville, UT

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

 	  Quote: 	
		  Steve, it would be simple enough to go into any automotive paint supply with 

your handy dandy scale under your arm, grab a few assorted gallons of paint 

and weigh them. 	




Deke,

The problem I see with that method, as has already been pointed out, is that the paint will weigh less when dry than when wet (in the can).  Of course, you also have the weight of the can.  I was interested in dry weights of various colors of plane paint.  Per gal, per sq ft, etc. but in some format to be able to determine how much weight would be added to your plane if you painted it any particular color.  It probably wouldn't matter much to many planes, but mine has a pretty low useful load so every pound counts.

_________________
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

NO NO NO

  

 That doesn't work.  The lightest (weight is) is white.  Its pigment is titanium dioxide and it the lightest.  Red (iron oxide is the very heavy)  if you want light, paint white and use trim with color.  You can't weigh the paint in the can and come out with any accurate results.  

  

 Clint



[quote] From: fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Weight Affected by Color of Plane

 Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 13:24:01 -0500

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>

 

 Steve, it would be simple enough to go into any automotive paint supply with 

 your handy dandy scale under your arm, grab a few assorted gallons of paint 

 and weigh them. If you decide to do that, it would be interesting to hear 

 your report.

 Deke Morisse

 Mikado Michigan

 S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT

 "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough 

 to

 take everything you have."

 -Thomas Jefferson

 

 

 

 ---

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