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The BaronVonEvil

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Walla Walla, WA.

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

Hi All,



This subject may have been flogged to death already but I am to a point that if I cant get the noise level in my Firestar II down to a dull roar I will have to sell it. 



I have measured the inflight cockpit noise during take-off and get about 117db on a Radio Shack Db meter. ( Not the Highest tech device but at least it gives a starting point.)



What can a person do to reduce the noise level? (besides glide...) Even at moderate power settings the noise is still around 115 db or so.



I wear a helmet with a set of David-Clarks that has the Gel ear pads but for others to hear my radio transmissions, I have to reduce power to less than 3500rpm to be heard. I have my radio volume cranked up as high as it will go just to hear other pilots. It can't be doing my hearing very much good.



Help!



Carlos G.

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:36 am Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

Our good friend Carlos,



  Your excessive noise problem is very likely something that can greatly improved in a couple of ways.



  First, I HIGHLY recommend getting a set of "ACTIVE" noise-cancelling headphones.  I emphasized "active" because that is the term used to describe the electronic noise cancelling system.  They have the "passive" style, but that isn't what you're after.



  You can either buy the incredibly expensive Bose, Lightspeed, David Clarks, etc., or convert your existing David Clarks.

  Here is a link to an outfit that makes an active noise cancelling module for most headset companies.



http://www.headsetsinc.com/customer_reviews.htm



  For less than $200 you can modify your present headset, and have the performance that meets or exceeds the models that cost a small fortune.



  A little background on the active style of noise reduction:  Sound is one of the many waves along the electromagnetic wavelength spectrum.  Sound is a little different from the other examples, like light, x-rays, UV rays, etc, because sound requires air to help transmit this energy from molecule to molecule, and so on.

  Sound comes to you by way of a sinewave.  There are crests and troughs, as seen in this link;



http://science.hq.nasa.gov/kids/imagers/ems/waves3.html



  Now, here is the really amazing and cool part.  In a sense, and due to the nature of the sinewave, you are listening to either a high crest or a low trough at any given time, and according to the frequency of the sound wave coming at you.  What the electronic headsets do is record the sound coming to it, and play it back virtually instaneously, where it is EXACTLY opposite of the crest and trough.  In other words, if you were able to look at this new sound wave coming at you, you would see the original sinewave, and now a NEW soundwave opposite from the original (essentially a mirror image).  There would be a crest...and an anti-crest, at the same time, and a trough and an anti-trough, etc.  So what you are now hearing is...sound, and anti-sound, at the same moment.



  This added feature of "anti-sound" can and does counter-act the "sound", so that you are left with silence.  For the airplane headset company, their mission is to reduce as much "bad" noise as possible, allowing you to hear only the deliberate sound from your ear speakers, and virtually all other outside noises cancelled...literally!  It is possible to be in a noisy room and hear nothing.  Not because the sound is muffled, but because the noise is counteracted by anti-noise, the result of which is silence.  Of course, for something as small as a pair of headphones, you can't achieve such performance, but you can come close.



   BTW, this same exact concept of cancelling out wavelengths in the electromagnetic spectrum is shown by way of "photo-gray lenses"  You've all seen the pair of glasses that the lenses get dark once they are exposed to direct sunlight, right?  This phenomenon happens because the lenses have microscopic lines cut into the lenses.

As sunlight (a very specific wavelength) passes through the lense some of the light is captured and refracted by the microscopic grooves.  This shift is just enough to divert the light and cause it to interact with the unobstructed light.  So, again, you have light wavelengths passing through the lense, and being counteracted

with "opposite" lightwaves (on the electromagnetic spectrum).  The result:  no light (or reduced light).  Essentially the light is cancelled by the anti-light, and the lense becomes dark.



  Of couse, photo gray lenses objective is only to reduce light, not eliminate it, so they place the microscopic grooves at such intervals as to only partially block some the light passing through, thereby making them "sunglasses".  Walk back into the house, and the effect goes away, because in-door light wavelengths aren't the wavelengths that these grooves are affected by.



  Secondly, you may want to put an additional small muffler on your plane, or build a new system altogether.  I bought a small glass pack muffler for my custom turbo installation.  The muffler was still a little heavier than I wanted, so I cut it in half.  I'm sure you could do a LOT in quietening down the exhaust noise.

  I don't know how your plane is configured, but you may consider installing a sound deadening material.  I purchased a roll of this stuff for my GlaStar, to be placed against the firewall.  I got it at JC Whitney, just look up "sound deadening".



  I am very confident these things will make a world of difference to your flying pleasure.  I especially believe you will find the most improvement with the noise cancelling headset, followed by the quieter muffler improvements.



  I look forward to your progress reports.



Mike Welch

Kolb MkIII



PS.  One of the main reasons I chose to use the GEO engine on my MkIII was it's incredibly low engine noise.  Plus, now that I have decided to use a turbo, I would be willing to bet that this will be one of the quietest MkIII's around.  



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have measured the inflight cockpit noise during take-off and get about 117db on a Radio Shack Db meter. ( Not the Highest tech device but at least it gives a starting point.)



 What can a person do to reduce the noise level? (besides glide...) Even at moderate power settings the noise is still around 115 db or so.



 Help!



 Carlos G. [Crying or Very sad]


	


_________________________________________________________________

Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power.

http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:55 am Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

> I wear a helmet with a set of David-Clarks that has the Gel ear pads but 

for others to hear my radio transmissions, I have to reduce power to less 

than 3500rpm to be heard. I have my radio volume cranked up as high as it 

will go just to hear other pilots. It can't be doing my hearing very much 

good.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Help!



 Carlos G. [Crying or Very sad]


	




Carlos:



I had to graduate from David Clarks with gel ear seals to an ANR headset.



I have lived in a high noise environment most of my life.  During my 

military career hearing protection was unheard of.  My hearing has become so 

poor I had to graduate from passive noise reduction headsets.



With the ANR I can hear and transmit quite well.  Without the ANR my ability 

to hear and comprehend is nearly zero.



I fly with a DRE6000 headset that works great.  Unfortunately, this company 

was in business for a short time and is now belly up.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

> Mike Welch

 	  Quote: 	
		   Kolb MkIII



 PS.  One of the main reasons I chose to use the GEO engine on my MkIII was 

 it's incredibly low engine noise.  Plus, now that I have decided to use a 

 turbo, I would be willing to bet that this will be one of the quietest 

 MkIII's around.


	




Mike W:



Once you start flying your mkIII you will probably discover the major noise 

producing item is the prop.



By producing a very quiet engine, you will be able to hear your prop better. 





john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

johnjoyes

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 3
Location: Reading, UK

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: Re: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

Forget all those suggestions of (expensive) Active Noise Reduction headsets. Sure they will help, but nowhere near as good as a pair of good in-ear noise-reduction headphones like the Shure E2C, which will cost you a tenth as much. Just pop your ordinary headset over the top, for even more noise reduction and of course to hold the microphone. 

I nearly gave up learning to fly because I suffered tinitus for a week after every flight, even in a "quiet" aeroplane. Now I fly my noisy Kolb in comfort, with the knowledge that I have less noise in my ears than even the most expensive Sennheiser set.

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

Carlos



There are a number of things you can do. Cut the noise at the source or keep 

it away from you.



To cut the noise at the source you can add mufflers, intake silencers and 

cut prop tip speeds. To cut prop noise you can shorten your prop or get a 

larger reduction ratio for your redrive. Most of these things will reduce 

your performance. Changing reduction ratios with any prop changes will be 

expensive. Find out where the noise is coming from first. With my direct 

drive VW I added a muffler and then found it was the prop that made the 

noise.



To keep the noise away get a active noise reduction headset with a good 

noise canceling mike. I have the noise canceling kit in my Sigtronics 

headset and it helps a bunch. To get a additional level of reduction I also 

use a set of Sony MDR-EX51PP headphones under my active noise canceling 

headset. They are cheap and help a bunch. There are many others that are 

good and may work better. Seems like someone even found a inexpensive active 

noise canceling set. My set up works so well that I can listen to music at a 

low level with a DRE intercom cutting the music for communication and still 

no ringing in the ears afterwards.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

WillUribe(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

Hi Carlos,

 115 dB(A) is about right for my FireStar and I have an intake silencer  plus the exhaust silencer.  

 

 Other pilots would tell me when they heard me over the radio there was  too much noise picked up by my David Clarks.  The ANR works great but  I found the ANR annoying to the point that on long flights it was better  when I turned it off.  

  

 I changed to Comtronic headsets and put the mic touching my lips, now  the other pilots can hear me much better. I use Classic Foamy ear plus so I can  raise the volume up and not worrying about hearing loss. The ear plus also  protect me from the noise that leaks into my headsets via the sunglasses  frame temples.

  

 When flying the Piper Colt I use Lightspeed QFR Soloc with the cell phone  patch cord.  The cell phone doesn't work unless the headsets are  hooked into an intercom so I haven't tried them in my FireStar.  

  

 When flying in Thom Riddle's Allegro 2000 912UL we averaged about 100 dB(A)  for the durations of the flight.

  

 Regards,

 Will Uribe

 El Paso, TX

 FireStar II N4GU

 http://www.members.aol.com/willuribe/mv/

 do not archive

  

  

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WillUribe(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

Sorry, I meant ear plugs not ear plus.  My right hand types faster  them my left.

 [/url] 

  

 In a message dated 2/28/2008 9:14:21 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,  WillUribe(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I use    Classic Foamy ear plus so I can raise the volume up and not worrying about    hearing loss. The ear plus also protect me from the noise that leaks into my    headsets via the sunglasses frame temples. 	
  

 do not archive



Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. [url=http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598]Watch the video on AOL Living.

  [quote][b]

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

Will,



  Thanks for clearing that typo up.  I kept doing a Google search, and all I could could with is pictures of Dumbo.

he he he



Mike Welch



Do not archive





________________________________



From: WillUribe(at)aol.com

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 11:58:56 -0500

Subject: RE: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com



Sorry, I meant ear plugs not ear plus.  My right hand types faster them my left.



In a message dated 2/28/2008 9:14:21 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, WillUribe(at)aol.com writes:



I use Classic Foamy ear plus so I can raise the volume up and not worrying about hearing loss. The ear plus also protect me from the noise that leaks into my headsets via the sunglasses frame temples.



do not archive



________________________________



Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living.





_________________________________________________________________

Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix".

http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

 	  Quote: 	
		   Mike W:



 Once you start flying your mkIII you will probably discover the major noise

 producing item is the prop.



 By producing a very quiet engine, you will be able to hear your prop better.

 



 john h




	




  Ah, John,



  With very little MkIII flying time (read that to be "none"), I wouldn't know that the prop makes that much noise.  But I really do believe I should have a very quiet engine, and I figured if the prop was a problem, then I would just install VGs on it.



chuckling



Mike Welch



_________________________________________________________________

Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give.

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

For transmitting I have recently seen some throat microphones that basically rest on your neck and pick up your voice through direct skin contact, and muffle some of the other external noises.



ANR Headphones are great as well.



Muffler is a good idea if that is where your noise is coming from, as many times its the prop that is actually creating the most noise.



Prop noise occurs as the tips approach the speed of sound.



If they are spinning to fast you need higher pitch and less diameter to reduce noise.



Do a google search on "propeller tip speed" and you will find calculators to input your diameter and rpm to determine if your tips are going to fast.



Should be under 600 mph tip speed to reduce noise from the prop.



There are also props with special tips that keep the noise down.



I think "Prince Props" is one company that sells them.



Also check the condition of your prop....any loose protective coverings/tapes, flaking paint or other imperfections will add to the noise considerably.

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

<< I cant get the noise level in my Firestar II down to a dull roar I

will have to sell it. >>



Carlos -



I had the same problem in my Mark-III.  It was almost impossible to hear

my radio, even with a well-fitting Comtronics helmet with built-in gel

earseal headsets.



The single most effective thing you can do is get yourself a set of ANR

(Active Noise Reduction) headsets.  MAN, what a difference they made for

me!



I bought the least-expensive set I could find on the market - LightSPEED

QXC.  The cost me about $275.  Worth every penny.  Sure, there are more

expensive sets on the market, and they may perform better.  But just

making the step up to any ANR headset (even an entry-level one) is an

order of magnitude better than any passive set you can buy.



Dennis Kirby

Mark-III Classic, 912ul

Cedar Crest, NM

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Should be under 600 mph tip speed to reduce noise from the prop.



 --------

 Ray


	




Hi Ray:



We've knocked this noise thing around quite a bit over the years.  I'd say 

it it more prop noise than anything else.  Also, I think we can discount 

prop tips approaching or exceeding supersonic speeds.  The Rotax engines 

have already taken that into consideration for us.



I believe most of our noise is the result of a pusher engine configuration 

with a prop that must run through air that is not always clean and in close 

proximity to the aircraft structure.



I have gotten down to the point where I accept my noisy airplane and try to 

take other routes to help make it liveable for long flights.  Some of us 

have proven that it is not so excessive we can not live in our airplanes for 

very long periods of time.



john h

mkIII Noisy beyond imagination.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

> The single most effective thing you can do is get yourself a set of ANR

 	  Quote: 	
		   (Active Noise Reduction) headsets.  MAN, what a difference they made for

 me!

 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Dennis Kirby


	


Dennis:



Got your bag packed for MV?



I tried the best Litespeed had to offer when they first came out without 

success.  Then, last summer, I bought the best that David Clark had to offer 

the XL somethings.  Neither would work in the mkIII cockpit.



The set that worked best for me was the DRE6000, which unfortunately, is out 

of business.  Got my fingers crossed my old set will keep on trucking.



john h

mkIII  Bag packed for MV 2008.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

agustafson(at)chartermi.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

I noticed on my FS2 when I changed from the Culver wood prop to an IVO and 

had to add the 3" extension that the noise went down considerably and I 

think only slightly because of the prop. Before I could not keep the gap 

seal in place (would shred) near the prop but getting the prop away from the 

TE nearly solved that problem and was where the most of the noise was coming 

from I think. Ear plugs and a helmet, it never bothered me, but no radio 

installed.



Aaron G.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 
	




Sorry Folks:



Looks like I fired a blank.



The real one will follow shortly.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

I only want to add a couple of things about the noise in a Kolb. A prop 

extension will help a lot, all mikes on anr type headsets are directional. 

This is where anyone has trouble hearing you transmit. Put the mike on the 

other side and see if that helps.

Larry C

_________________
do not archive

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

Get one of their mods ASAP.



http://www.headsetsinc.com/



==============================================

---- The BaronVonEvil <grageda(at)innw.net> wrote: 



=============




Hi All,



This subject may have been flogged to death already but I am to a point that if I cant get the noise level in my Firestar II down to a dull roar I will have to sell it. 



I have measured the inflight cockpit noise during take-off and get about 117db on a Radio Shack Db meter. ( Not the Highest tech device but at least it gives a starting point.)



What can a person do to reduce the noise level? (besides glide...) Even at moderate power settings the noise is still around 115 db or so.



I wear a helmet with a set of David-Clarks that has the Gel ear pads but for others to hear my radio transmissions, I have to reduce power to less than 3500rpm to be heard. I have my radio volume cranked up as high as it will go just to hear other pilots. It can't be doing my hearing very much good.



Help!



Carlos G. [Crying or Very sad]





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166684#166684



--

kugelair.com

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: FireStar Cockpit Noise Reduction?

Do you have a link to the optical cancellation you mentioned. I have not heard of it before.



=========================

---- Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com> wrote: 



=============


Our good friend Carlos,



  Your excessive noise problem is very likely something that can greatly improved in a couple of ways.



  First, I HIGHLY recommend getting a set of "ACTIVE" noise-cancelling headphones.  I emphasized "active" because that is the term used to describe the electronic noise cancelling system.  They have the "passive" style, but that isn't what you're after.



  You can either buy the incredibly expensive Bose, Lightspeed, David Clarks, etc., or convert your existing David Clarks.

  Here is a link to an outfit that makes an active noise cancelling module for most headset companies.



http://www.headsetsinc.com/customer_reviews.htm



  For less than $200 you can modify your present headset, and have the performance that meets or exceeds the models that cost a small fortune.



  A little background on the active style of noise reduction:  Sound is one of the many waves along the electromagnetic wavelength spectrum.  Sound is a little different from the other examples, like light, x-rays, UV rays, etc, because sound requires air to help transmit this energy from molecule to molecule, and so on.

  Sound comes to you by way of a sinewave.  There are crests and troughs, as seen in this link;



http://science.hq.nasa.gov/kids/imagers/ems/waves3.html



  Now, here is the really amazing and cool part.  In a sense, and due to the nature of the sinewave, you are listening to either a high crest or a low trough at any given time, and according to the frequency of the sound wave coming at you.  What the electronic headsets do is record the sound coming to it, and play it back virtually instaneously, where it is EXACTLY opposite of the crest and trough.  In other words, if you were able to look at this new sound wave coming at you, you would see the original sinewave, and now a NEW soundwave opposite from the original (essentially a mirror image).  There would be a crest...and an anti-crest, at the same time, and a trough and an anti-trough, etc.  So what you are now hearing is...sound, and anti-sound, at the same moment.



  This added feature of "anti-sound" can and does counter-act the "sound", so that you are left with silence.  For the airplane headset company, their mission is to reduce as much "bad" noise as possible, allowing you to hear only the deliberate sound from your ear speakers, and virtually all other outside noises cancelled...literally!  It is possible to be in a noisy room and hear nothing.  Not because the sound is muffled, but because the noise is counteracted by anti-noise, the result of which is silence.  Of course, for something as small as a pair of headphones, you can't achieve such performance, but you can come close.



   BTW, this same exact concept of cancelling out wavelengths in the electromagnetic spectrum is shown by way of "photo-gray lenses"  You've all seen the pair of glasses that the lenses get dark once they are exposed to direct sunlight, right?  This phenomenon happens because the lenses have microscopic lines cut into the lenses.

As sunlight (a very specific wavelength) passes through the lense some of the light is captured and refracted by the microscopic grooves.  This shift is just enough to divert the light and cause it to interact with the unobstructed light.  So, again, you have light wavelengths passing through the lense, and being counteracted

with "opposite" lightwaves (on the electromagnetic spectrum).  The result:  no light (or reduced light).  Essentially the light is cancelled by the anti-light, and the lense becomes dark.



  Of couse, photo gray lenses objective is only to reduce light, not eliminate it, so they place the microscopic grooves at such intervals as to only partially block some the light passing through, thereby making them "sunglasses".  Walk back into the house, and the effect goes away, because in-door light wavelengths aren't the wavelengths that these grooves are affected by.



  Secondly, you may want to put an additional small muffler on your plane, or build a new system altogether.  I bought a small glass pack muffler for my custom turbo installation.  The muffler was still a little heavier than I wanted, so I cut it in half.  I'm sure you could do a LOT in quietening down the exhaust noise.

  I don't know how your plane is configured, but you may consider installing a sound deadening material.  I purchased a roll of this stuff for my GlaStar, to be placed against the firewall.  I got it at JC Whitney, just look up "sound deadening".



  I am very confident these things will make a world of difference to your flying pleasure.  I especially believe you will find the most improvement with the noise cancelling headset, followed by the quieter muffler improvements.



  I look forward to your progress reports.



Mike Welch

Kolb MkIII



PS.  One of the main reasons I chose to use the GEO engine on my MkIII was it's incredibly low engine noise.  Plus, now that I have decided to use a turbo, I would be willing to bet that this will be one of the quietest MkIII's around.  



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have measured the inflight cockpit noise during take-off and get about 117db on a Radio Shack Db meter. ( Not the Highest tech device but at least it gives a starting point.)



 What can a person do to reduce the noise level? (besides glide...) Even at moderate power settings the noise is still around 115 db or so.



 Help!



 Carlos G. [Crying or Very sad]


	


_________________________________________________________________

Climb to the top of the charts!ï¿½Play the word scramble challenge with star power.

http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan



--

kugelair.com

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