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jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

Dave:

  

 I'm particularly interested on pictures of the fuselage modification for the main gear and nose gear.

  

 Thanks!

  

 Jose

 ---

SkySteve

Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Huntsville, UT

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

Jose,

Here are some photos I have that may help.  The grove gear should be attached to the rear clips on the airframe.  It comes with attachment plates to attach it to those rear clips.  If your airframe doesn't have rear clips, John McBean sells them.  I purchased some from him just in case mine needed to be moved to a different location.  They did not need to be moved.  



McBean also sells the complete (wheel & tire included) nose wheel assembly which comes with detailed instructions of how to install.  I purchased mine from him.  



Also, note on photo #6 the addition of height to the vertical stabilizer and the addition of a Model IV rudder.  This has really helped give good rudder authority which I found out after purchasing my Model I was one of the major problems that was addressed in later models and finally fixed in the model IV.  



Please understand I am not a builder nor am I an engineer and I have no knowledge in airplane design.  I just listen to others well.  I hope this info is of help to you.

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Nosewheel installation

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_________________
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

Steve:

   

  Nice job of resurrecting and upgrading a "classic" Kitfox. How much did you raise the vertical stabilizer and did you work from someone's plans or design the mod yourself?



SkySteve <Wilson(at)REinfo.org> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "SkySteve" 



Jose,

Here are some photos I have that may help. The grove gear should be attached to the rear clips on the airframe. It comes with attachment plates to attach it to those rear clips. If your airframe doesn't have rear clips, John McBean sells them. I purchased some from him just in case mine needed to be moved to a different location. They did not need to be moved. 



McBean also sells the complete (wheel & tire included) nose wheel assembly which comes with detailed instructions of how to install.  I purchased mine from him. 



Also, note on photo #6 the addition of height to the vertical stabilizer and the addition of a Model IV rudder. This has really helped give good rudder authority which I found out after purchasing my Model I was one of the major problems that was addressed in later models and finally fixed in the model IV. 



Please understand I am not a builder nor am I an engineer and I have no knowledge in airplane design. I just listen to others well. I hope this info is of help to you.



--------

Steve Wilson

Huntsville, UT

Kitfox I-IV 85DD

912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive 

Convertable Nosewheel & Tailwheel





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170034#170034





Attachments:       Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

SkySteve

Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Huntsville, UT

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

We raised the vertical stabilizer about 10".  I purchased a new Model IV rudder from John McBean and then used cardboard from an old box to make a template of an existing vertical stabilizer from a model IV.  The attached photo shows the "high quality" red and white template resting on the horizontal stabilizer.  Not too scientific, but it worked.  The key, of course, was to make the vertical stabilizer the same height as the new rudder was going to be and the same front to back width and design as the current model IV vertical stabilizers.



I did not do the work myself.  I hired an A&P to do the work.  As long as I was willing to keep the money coming, he was willing to cut and weld.

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_________________
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel

jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

Steve:

  

 I remember your plane on the Dan Denney brochures.  Never thought it could look so beautiful as a tricycle.

  

 After studying the pictures I still have a couple of questions.  Do you have a picture showing the 

Grove gear attached to the fuelage?  Our model II fuselage has a clip right under the wing lift strut attachment which, in my opinion, is not as strong as the two clips that attach the traditional landing gear in the taildragger position.  I would like to confirm that this is the rear clip that you mention.

  

 Do you think that extending the rudder of your plane was a requirement of the conversion or just an enhancement?  I owned this model II for ten years (1997-2007) and always thought the rudder authority was adequate (enough).

  

 After seen your pictures, "my" plane's new owner became convinced that this is the direction he wants to move.  I didn't mention on my original e-mail that the plane is now under repair after a groundloop that caused considerable damage under the seat and at the tailwheel attachment.

  

 Thanks for your support! 

  

 Jose



 ---

SkySteve

Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Huntsville, UT

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: Re: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

Jose,

Thanks.  I kind of like the looks of it myself.  



The rear clip position you refer to is where my new Grove gear is attached.  My rear clips are the same as the front clips.  When my plane was on floats, I think this is where the floats attach also.  See attached photo of new main gear attachment.



I did the vertical stabilizer and rudder mods to try to bring my plane more up to date as long as I was doing the trigear mod.  I guess I wouldn't consider this a required mod, but knowing that it has historically been an issue and very solvable, it just seemed like it should be done and the difference is VERY noticeable.

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_________________
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

 	  Quote: 	
		  I did the vertical stabilizer and rudder mods to try to bring my plane more up to date as long as I was doing the trigear mod. I guess I wouldn't consider this a required mod, but knowing that it has historically been an issue and very solvable, it just seemed like it should be done and the difference is VERY noticeable.

	




Steve, What has change with the additional tail height ? Or is it flying yet? 



Also, I would be curious to know what Denney did to state the 1050 gross weight if anything. The builder could have just wrote in 1050 during the process.  85DD predecesor was 84DD ?  Does anyone know if that Kitfox 1 was the one that had the wing attach points at the longerons torn off? 

I do stand to be corrected on his matter but I like to know how a KF 1 can now have a gross weight changed from 850 to 1050 before the Kf 2 and 3 were produced. 



One more  thing you might want to do it to contact Mc Bean as I think he has a modifed mixer kit that will give you flapperon differential. That to me would be a definate must do for older Kitfoxes.

_________________
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SkySteve

Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Huntsville, UT

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

Dave,

 	  Quote: 	
		  Steve, What has change with the additional tail height ? Or is it flying yet? 

	




I have just finished over an hour of taxiing and am getting ready for the first flight as soon as the weather allows.  The additional tail height has provided very solid rudder authority starting at about 10 mph.  As soon as I get rolling I can feel the rudder effectiveness in steering the plane.  When I would taxi with the model I vertical stabilizer and rudder the plane did not respond well on the ground.  I am thinking that changing to the trigear may have helped some also as the AOA is now much lower allowing the vertical stabilizer and rudder to be up in the air and not blocked by the rest of the plane.  Again, I'm certainly no engineer, but this just seems logical to me.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Also, I would be curious to know what Denney did to state the 1050 gross weight if anything. The builder could have just wrote in 1050 during the process 	


I would certainly hope a builder and the owner of the company would not just write down a false number.  That would be very stupid and dangerous, not to mention outright fraud to the FAA, the public, and his customers, but a huge liability as well.  And then to sell the plane with that misrepresentation.  I hope not.  The legal fiduciary requirements to one's customers is paramount in the aircraft industry.  So, I am confident that all has been presented to me in a fully disclosed and truthful manner.  



 	  Quote: 	
		  85DD predecesor was 84DD ? Does anyone know if that Kitfox 1 was the one that had the wing attach points at the longerons torn off? 

	


Sorry, but I am totally ignorant as to the history stated here.



 	  Quote: 	
		  One more thing you might want to do it to contact Mc Bean as I think he has a modifed mixer kit that will give you flapperon differential. That to me would be a definate must do for older Kitfoxes. 	


Sounds like I'm about to spend more money.  If it is a must, then I will look into it.  Exactly what will be the change/benefit?

_________________
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel

Last edited by SkySteve on Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:55 am; edited 1 time in total

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

I just was looking at John's website and reading about the changes that were made in the model 2 to make it 950 gross weight, and then the additional changes made to the Kitfox 3 to make it 1050 gross weight.  If you look at the bottom of the page it lists the different models.  Different spars, heavier carrythroughs, ect.  I know also another difference in the 1 to the 3 is the diaganal braceing in the wings.  The 1 had 1/8" smaller diameter tubes.  I have a set of Kitfox 1 wings in my hangar and used to have a Kitfox 3 project. Ones used a different stiffener in the wing than the 3.   The 1 also had shorter struts than the 3 so more wing is out beyond the strut attach point on it than the 3.  I don't know how this factored into the higher gross weights though.  Jim Chuk  Avids  Mn

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

 From: Wilson(at)REinfo.org

 Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 18:49:07 -0700

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "SkySteve" <Wilson(at)REinfo.org>

 Dave,

 > Steve, What has change with the additional tail height ? Or is it flying yet? 

 > 

 I have just finished over an hour of taxiing and am getting ready for the first flight as soon as the weather allows. The additional tail height has provided very solid rudder authority starting at about 10 mph. As soon as I get rolling I can feel the rudder effectiveness in steering the plane. When I would taxi with the model I vertical stabilizer and rudder the plane did not respond well on the ground. I am thinking that changing to the trigear may have helped some also as the AOA is now much lower allowing the vertical stabilizer and rudder to be up in the air and not blocked by the rest of the plane. Again, I'm certainly no engineer, but this just seems logical to me.

 > Also, I would be curious to know what Denney did to state the 1050 gross weight if anything. The builder could have just wrote in 1050 during the process

 I would certainly hope a builder and the owner of the company would not just write down a false number. That would be very stupid and dangerous, not to mention outright fraud to the FAA, the public, and his customers, but a huge liability as well. And then to sell the plane with that misrepresentation. I hope not. And of course we must also realize that the current Kitfox Aircraft Company has been fully aware of the transaction for a couple of years now, and this plane is very well known to them. If any of the above were to be shown to be true I guess I would soon be the new owner of Kitfox Aircraft. The legal fiduciary requirements to one's customers is paramount in the aircraft industry. So, I am confident that all has been presented to me in a fully disclosed and truthful manner. (Sorry about the rant, but I can't even imagine such fraud)

 > 85DD predecesor was 84DD ? Does anyone know if that Kitfox 1 was the one that had the wing attach points at the longerons torn off? 

 > 

 Sorry, but I am totally ignorant as to the history stated here.

 > One more thing you might want to do it to contact Mc Bean as I think he has a modifed mixer kit that will give you flapperon differential. That to me would be a definate must do for older Kitfoxes. 

 Sounds like I'm about to spend more money. If it is a must, then I will look into it. Exactly what will be the change/benefit?

 --------

 Steve Wilson

 Huntsville, UT

 Kitfox I-IV 85DD

 912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive 

 Convertable Nosewheel &amp; Tailwheel

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=170269#170269

&=======================

&g==

[quote] 

Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. Learn more.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: Re: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

 	  Quote: 	
		  I would certainly hope a builder and the owner of the company would not just write down a false number. That would be very stupid and dangerous, not to mention outright fraud to the FAA, the public, and his customers, but a huge liability as well. And then to sell the plane with that misrepresentation. 	




Well correct me if I am wrong but the builder can decide the gross weight for registration.  But if it is a Model 1 then it was published at 850 gross. Model 2  950 and Model 3 at 1050 gross.  



What is your wing strut diameter ?

 	  Quote: 	
		  Sounds like I'm about to spend more money. If it is a must, then I will look into it. Exactly what will be the change/benefit? 	




I would ask John how you would benefit as he sells the mod.  I would assume you would get less adverse yaw and a larger flap operating range.



Your Tail mod is intriging but I would never have guessed that it was done for ground handling.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:01 am Post subject: Re: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

Jose, only got a inside pic

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rspriggle(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:34 am Post subject: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

I'm curious now after looking at Steve's pictures.  Is the nose gear mount bolt on, weld on, or both?  Looks like where the mount attaches to the bottom of the fuselage is it bolted on, or at least the support tubes are bolted on.  But also looks like the shock mount on the front of the frame is welded on to where the two cross braces come together.



Thanks,

Rick

 [quote][b]

jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:49 am Post subject: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

Dave:

  

 Thanks for the picture.  Looks like a good alternative.  I prefer the loose nosewheel system due to the simplicity of the installation, but the planes new owner prefer to have full steering.  We may end copying your installation.  Any additional picture showing details of the installation that you may send in the future will be valuable.

  

 Thanks for your support! 

  

 Jose



 ---

jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

Steve:

  

 Since the plane is partially uncovered due to the required repairs, it is a good time to modify the vertical stabilizer.  Due you have an idea of the weight added due to extended vertical stabilizer and rudder?  Beside being longer, is the model IV rudder wider?  Which are the airplane weights before and after the modifications?

  

 Best Regards!

  

 Jose

 ---

SkySteve

Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Huntsville, UT

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

Jose,

The new rudder is both taller and wider.  The total added weight for all the mods I have completed is 46#.  Adding the nose wheel and the Grove main gear were the largest weight gains.  Weight went from 579# to 625#.

_________________
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel

SkySteve

Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Huntsville, UT

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: Re: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

Dave,

 	  Quote: 	
		  Your Tail mod is intriging but I would never have guessed that it was done for ground handling.  	




The mod was not done for ground handling.  That is just where I have noticed it so far.  Remember, the plane has not yet been in the air.

_________________
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

The builder is the manufacturer of the plane... as such he has the right to put whatever weight rating on the plane he wants.  How can that be fraud.  If you wnt to be totally safe check the construction of your plane against other model I.  There is no law that I know of that says you have to fly up to 1050.  If on the other hand you find the pass throughs have been beefed up, The spars have additional internal support Etc. Etc then feel safe to fly to Mr. Denney’s spec.  The Otis, as I see it, is on you, the pilot, to make sure your plane is safe.  

   

   

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C88884.54B9EA30[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

   

--

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

SkySteve

Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Huntsville, UT

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

Noel,

Do you really mean what you just said?  That the builder/manufacturer has the RIGHT to put whatever weight rating on the plane he wants?  And that the otis is on the pilot to make sure the plane is safe?



OK, I'll bite.  Let me tell you a short story:  I am the manufacturer of an airplane.  Let's see, what to call my new airplane.  Oh, yes, I'll call it a Kitcoyote.  Yea, I really like that name.  Now when I build this airplane and do the engineering on it I find out it can only carry 850# gross weight (plus a safety factor of 1.5 because I want to be safe).   Now I want to sell a lot of these new Kitcoyotes for my new Kitcoyote Areocraft Company, so I decide to commit intentional fraud and write down on the weight and balance that my new plane can carry, say, 5000# gross weight.  Yea, that should sell a lot of planes.  You, Noel, purchase my airplane because you think it would be great to have this new little two seater that can carry 5,000#.  Now you load up your wife and about 4,000# of her luggage (you limit her to only 4,000# because you, too want to be safe) and you try to fly off on vacation.  Of course you don't make it, crash, kill yourself and your wife and all her stuff burns in the fire.  Now are you telling me that I have no liability and no fraud was committed and that you alone as the pilot have the "otis to make sure your plane is safe"?  You mean you can't count on me as the manufacturer at all to be truthful with you since there is "no law that says you have to fly up to 5,000#".  Come on, you don't really believe that, do you?



When you do a weight and balance on an airplane, any airplane, you don't empty all the fuel, take out all the gages, radios, etc and weigh the empty airplane each time do you?  No, of course not.  You go to the POH just like the FAA tells you to and you look up the empty weight, add in all the gages, radios and other stuff, plus fuel, luggage, pilot, passengers, etc and calculate your weight and balance.  You count on the manufacturer to provide you with factual information to work from.  



Do you, as the pilot tear the entire plane apart and check each item it was built with?  Of course not, you count on the manufacturer to be honest with you that the plane was built right.  So how can you say that the manufacturer has the RIGHT to put whatever weight rating on the plane he wants.  The manufacturer DOES NOT HAVE THAT RIGHT.  The manufacturer has the responsibility to be truthful and honest about what he built.  And don't open the argument that the word Experimental covers all wrong and thereby allows anyone to commit intentional fraud.  It does not.  We are all expected to be honest.  We are all expected to not commit fraud.



When there is an airliner crash, the FAA, NTSB and all the attorneys in the free western world do not wait at the pilot's doorstep if the plane crash was caused by a default in the aircraft.  They go to the manufacturer.  If your logic was correct, they would all go to the pilot because you have stated that "the otis ...is on the pilot, to make sure your plane is safe".  Yes, the pilot is responsible to make sure the plane is safe, by using the honest information provided by the manufacturer for those items that the pilot cannot know or test by not being the manufacturer.



Now, just so we are both on the same page.  And just in case your comments were about something I might have said earlier in this thread, please read all my comments.  Especially the one where I very clearly state, and I quote, "So, I am confident that all has been presented to me in a fully disclosed and truthful manner."  This final comment seems to have been missed too many times already.

_________________
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel

f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearw
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:17 pm Post subject: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

Guys, I believe the word you looking for is "onus". Otis? Seems I saw that

on an elevator>



Definition

the onus   Show phonetics

noun [S] FORMAL

the responsibility or duty to do something:

[+ to infinitive] The onus is on the landlord to ensure that the property is

habitable.

We are trying to shift the onus for passenger safety onto the government.



--

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: Re: Tricycle Kitfox II-Reminder

Steve, 





 	  Quote: 	
		  Now, just so we are both on the same page. And just in case your comments were about something I might have said earlier in this thread, please read all my comments. Especially the one where I very clearly state, and I quote, "So, I am confident that all has been presented to me in a fully disclosed and truthful manner." This final comment seems to have been missed too many times already.



	




You can believe and say that all you like and it is possible that Dan Denney did mods that made your Kitfox 1 different than other Kitfox 1s with a gross weight of 850. They did weight around 400 lbs empty you know.  Also the VNE of the Model 1 was 100 mph and with your 912 I would venture to guess that you will surpass that.   Model 1 cruise speed as about 75 mph  so your cruise will likely be closer to the vne now and something to think about  in rough air. 



I am surprised that no one else is voicing their thoughts on this matter already.  If there was mods done then it would be of great benefit for others to be able to do these structural mods on their Early models as well if practical.  And if there were no mods done then it is good for you to know that the builder might  have just set a higher gross weight  on a Model 1 and that is up to you to decide.  You are 25% over gross weight now  from  the original design of the Model 1 and definitely are in the test pilot stages if not proven other wise.



 	  Quote: 	
		  So, I am confident that all has been presented to me in a fully disclosed and truthful manner." This final comment seems to have been missed too many times already. 	




Better get a affidavit from  Dan Denney on this matter

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