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Hold harmless Release

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john_graham

Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 45
Location: Algonquin, IL

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: Hold harmless Release

If anyone has an electronic copy of a hold harmless or legal release form they have had passengers sign when flying I could sure use a copy emailed to me.  Thanks.



John P. Graham

CubFlyer1940(at)Yahoo.com

Cell phone  (847) 641-1330

     [quote][b]

_________________
John Graham
N15YK 1993 Yak-52
CubFlyer1940@Yahoo.com
(847) 641-1330

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: Hold harmless Release

John,

 Here's one that you should be able to use.  Fill in the  blanks with your information or your company's information if  appropriate.

 Dennis

  

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bu131(at)swbell.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: Hold harmless Release

a word of caution regarding hold harmless

  while doing a familiary flight few years ago my leader (T-6's) wanted me to carry a passenger, I refused. He himself gave this fellow a ride and prior to boarding he  made the passengere sign the hold harmless agreement, while landing unfortunately the airplane stalled and crashed with two deaths. Despite the paper (which was given to a ground person) the suit that follow was settled in the millions to the despair of the widow and children of the pilot. Beware.

   

  andres



"A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

  [quote]        John,

  Here's one that you should be able to use.  Fill in the blanks with your information or your  company's information if appropriate.

  Dennis

   

  [quote]  ---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:50 am Post subject: Hold harmless Release

Excellent point Andre.  So what is the answer?   Refuse to take any passengers or is there a hold harmless agreement that would  hold up in court?  Maybe one of our fellow yak list contributors/attorneys  can shed more light on the subject.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: Hold harmless Release

Only fly single orphaned ones. Or get a YAK 50, then the question is never asked when you take to fly-ins. That way that 350 lb news paper reporter who has never flown before in his/her life but is on the incentive VIP list can’t get dumped on you!  

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese

 Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:48 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Hold harmless Release  

  

  

     

Excellent point Andre.  So what is the answer?  Refuse to take any passengers or is there a hold harmless agreement that would hold up in court?  Maybe one of our fellow yak list contributors/attorneys can shed more light on the subject.  

    

Dennis  

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Dr Andre Katz (bu131(at)swbell.net)   

    

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:51 AM  

    

Subject: Re: Hold harmless Release  

    

   

    

a word of caution regarding hold harmless  

    

while doing a familiary flight few years ago my leader (T-6's) wanted me to carry a passenger, I refused. He himself gave this fellow a ride and prior to boarding he  made the passengere sign the hold harmless agreement, while landing unfortunately the airplane stalled and crashed with two deaths. Despite the paper (which was given to a ground person) the suit that follow was settled in the millions to the despair of the widow and children of the pilot. Beware.  

    

   

    

andres

 

 "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

John,  

    

Here's one that you should be able to use.  Fill in the blanks with your information or your company's information if appropriate.  

    

Dennis  

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: John Graham (cubflyer1940(at)yahoo.com)   

    

To: Yak list (yak-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 2:59 PM  

    

Subject: Hold harmless Release  

    

   

  

If anyone has an electronic copy of a hold harmless or legal release form they have had passengers sign when flying I could sure use a copy emailed to me.  Thanks.

 

 John P. Graham

 CubFlyer1940(at)Yahoo.com (CubFlyer1940(at)Yahoo.com)

 Cell phone (847) 641-1330    	  Quote: 	
		      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List  href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com  href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c  	


  	
  	
  

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		    href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c 	
   	
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       [quote][b]

jorgen.nielsen(at)mweb.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: Hold harmless Release

J  

   

I had to evict an overweight chap once from my Yak – kind of got forced into taking him along, then when strapping the chap in realized the safety was being compromised due to controls being snagged – asked him to get out.  A bit embarrassing but I was really relieved.  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp M.D.

 Sent: 08 April 2008 08:20 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Hold harmless Release  

  

   

Only fly single orphaned ones. Or get a YAK 50, then the question is never asked when you take to fly-ins. That way that 350 lb news paper reporter who has never flown before in his/her life but is on the incentive VIP list can’t get dumped on you!  

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese

 Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:48 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Hold harmless Release  

  

  

     

Excellent point Andre.  So what is the answer?  Refuse to take any passengers or is there a hold harmless agreement that would hold up in court?  Maybe one of our fellow yak list contributors/attorneys can shed more light on the subject.  

    

Dennis  

    

   

  [quote]    

---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: Hold harmless Release

Had one of those too. Only flew him because he had really helped me out on a maintenance issue. But full aft stick was a challenge so just keep it mild acro with no over the top stuff.\  

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jorgen Nielsen

 Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 2:13 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Hold harmless Release  

  

  

   

J  

   

I had to evict an overweight chap once from my Yak – kind of got forced into taking him along, then when strapping the chap in realized the safety was being compromised due to controls being snagged – asked him to get out.  A bit embarrassing but I was really relieved.  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp M.D.

 Sent: 08 April 2008 08:20 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Hold harmless Release  

  

   

Only fly single orphaned ones. Or get a YAK 50, then the question is never asked when you take to fly-ins. That way that 350 lb news paper reporter who has never flown before in his/her life but is on the incentive VIP list can’t get dumped on you!  

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese

 Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:48 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Hold harmless Release  

  

  

     

Excellent point Andre.  So what is the answer?  Refuse to take any passengers or is there a hold harmless agreement that would hold up in court?  Maybe one of our fellow yak list contributors/attorneys can shed more light on the subject.  

    

Dennis  

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Dr Andre Katz (bu131(at)swbell.net)   

    

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:51 AM  

    

Subject: Re: Hold harmless Release  

    

   

    

a word of caution regarding hold harmless  

    

while doing a familiary flight few years ago my leader (T-6's) wanted me to carry a passenger, I refused. He himself gave this fellow a ride and prior to boarding he  made the passengere sign the hold harmless agreement, while landing unfortunately the airplane stalled and crashed with two deaths. Despite the paper (which was given to a ground person) the suit that follow was settled in the millions to the despair of the widow and children of the pilot. Beware.  

    

   

    

andres

 

 "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

John,  

    

Here's one that you should be able to use.  Fill in the blanks with your information or your company's information if appropriate.  

    

Dennis  

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: John Graham (cubflyer1940(at)yahoo.com)   

    

To: Yak list (yak-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 2:59 PM  

    

Subject: Hold harmless Release  

    

   

  

If anyone has an electronic copy of a hold harmless or legal release form they have had passengers sign when flying I could sure use a copy emailed to me.  Thanks.

 

 John P. Graham

 CubFlyer1940(at)Yahoo.com (CubFlyer1940(at)Yahoo.com)

 Cell phone (847) 641-1330    	  Quote: 	
		      href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List  href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com  href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c  	


  	
  	
  

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		    href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c 	
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       [quote][b]

bu131(at)swbell.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: Hold harmless Release

or better take this to the shows

   

  andres



"Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com> wrote:

  [quote]              Only fly single orphaned ones. Or get a YAK 50, then the question is never asked when you take to fly-ins. That way that 350 lb news paper reporter who has never flown  before in his/her life but is on the incentive VIP list can’t get dumped on you!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

  Doc

   

      From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis  Savarese

Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:48 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Hold harmless Release

   

    Excellent point Andre.  So what is the answer?  Refuse to take any passengers or is there a hold harmless agreement that would hold up in court?  Maybe one of our fellow yak list contributors/attorneys can shed more light on the subject.



    Dennis



     



  [quote]    ---

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cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: Hold harmless Release

On the question of liability, does an LLC owned aircraft prevent or discourage legal action due to "wrongful death or injury" resulting from the actions of a crazed, obviously communist-sympathizer, nut case RedStar pilot who hurt dear old Uncle "insert_name_here" while on a free demo flight. What would "For The People.com" say to the prospective litagator? 



"Good People of the jury, note that the defendant's airplane was marked with the national symbols of our most hated enemies, who obviously have their agents covertly planted in our country to subvert our American way of life."



To date I have flown over 100 Young Eagles in the CJ as well as numerous VIP's at airshow gigs. Perhaps I was thinking that the deep pockets of the offical sponsor would somehow protect me from the Vipers Bite.



Was this naive?



Craig Payne

ReadeG(at)Cairnwood.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: Hold harmless Release

If you think about it - it isn't the aircraft you want to protect.  It's your personal net worth.  What you want to protect in corporate form - ideally in an off-shore trust - is every liquid and real asset you own.  The corporate veil of an LLC, C corp. or an S corp. that holds your airplane as an asset can easily be pierced and is meaningless since, if action is taken against you, it means that the asset (airplane) is probably a pile of junk (was in an accident).



Reade Genzlinger

Cairnwood Cooperative Corporation

mailto:readeg(at)cairnwood.com

215.914.0370



--

Bill Tally

Joined: 11 Jul 2007
Posts: 20

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Hold harmless Release

The whole area of liability and efforts to avoid liability is extremely complex and varies with numerous factors, including the facts and circumstances of each situation, the legal climate in the locality, and the law of the jurisdiction where the accident occurs.  Unfortunately, there is no sure-fire way to escape potential liability, no matter how skilfully the release, waiver or hold-harmless agreement is worded.  The release posted by Dennis is about as complete as any you'll ever see, but courts and clever lawyers all over the country have found ways around these documents.  And, it can safely be said that almost no waiver, even those signed by parents, are effective when is comes to children.  



If you want to shield yourself to the maximum amount possible, about all you can do is to carry whatever insurance is available, get a good waiver or hold-harmless wherever possible, and be as careful as you can in maintaining and flying your airplane.  The suggestion to carry only adult, unmarried, childless orphans may be pretty close to reality.



A properly-maintained corporation or LLC may be of limited help in some situations but certainly cannot be relied upon, especially if the accident is due to pilot error.



I'm not familiar with the details, but I think that EAA does offer some insurance protection for the Young Eagles program.  



The exposure to liability from an injured passenger is analogous to the risk to which the pilot's family exposed for the lack of life insurance coverage for death occurring in experimental aircraft.   Almost all policies exclude death which occurs in an aircraft with anything other than a standard airworthiness certificate, and some exclude accidents in anything other than scheduled airline flights.   If coverage can be obtained at all, it is often so expensive as to be prohibitive.  



Whether carrying passengers or flying solo, each pilot has to evaluate the risk and decide if the risk is acceptable or not.  We have to understand that what we love to do can be dangerous, and we have to do what we can to control and limit the risk.

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: Hold harmless Release

Very naive.

Doc



--

adsavarese(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: Hold harmless Release

Now THAT is the best answer I have seen with regards to a hold harmless 

agreement.  Well said Bill.

Dennis

---

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