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Series 5 Light Sport
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jprobasco(at)patmedia.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:35 pm Post subject: Series 5 Light Sport

Steve,



I would be very interested in hearing about your Series 5, and how you configured 

it for use as a light sport aircraft.  My Series 5 is only partially built and I am 

considering what I would need to do to build as a light sport and retain a useful 

load of around 525#.  My kit came with convertable wing tips, duel brakes, and all 

the speedster fairings including the false ribs.  Along the way, I obtained a 

spring gear, an NSI EA81 and cockpit adjustable prop.   Obviously, the prop would 

be out for light sport use and I suspect the EA-81 and spring gear might be a bit 

heavy.   Should I forget the convertable wing tips to save weight and just go with 

one length? short or long?  Any comments/suggestions from you or others on this 

list would certainly be helpful.



Jeff Probasco

avidfox

Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 87

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:46 pm Post subject: Series 5 Light Sport

avidfox

Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 87

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: Series 5 Light Sport

John,

 First, let me say that my "5" has the typical "Experimental Amateur Built" airworthiness certificate, There is nothing special or different with 84KF. It was assembled IAW the factory construction manual, has a 921UL engine and 3 blade Warp Drive prop, spring gear, and, at present, an empty weight of 762 lbs.( See attached pictures) 

 The final empty weight of your aircraft is the key to flying it under sport pilot privileges...,  along with a solid understanding of "The Final Rule", (the link posted below).

 

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/sport_rule.pdf

 

Now, as stated in the Federal Register / Vol. 69, No. 143 / Tuesday, July 27, 2004 / Rules and Regulations, page 44791......

"The FAA believes that there might be confusion concerning what airworthiness certificates apply to lightsport aircraft. Therefore, the FAA is clarifying this issue. A sport pilot may operate any aircraft that meets the definition in § 1.1 of a light-sport aircraft, regardless of the airworthiness certificate issued for the aircraft. An aircraft that meets the light-sport aircraft definition may have any airworthiness certificate that may be issued for an aircraft, such as standard, special, primary, or experimental amateur-built aircraft."

 

Second, if we were to attempt to continue this discussion on line, here on the "List" we would be jumped on by the so called (cough cough) "moderators", all amatuer hobbiest, who don't have a clue what's going on, but will insist that a 25 year professional FAA representative and Part 147 educator is full of $#%&.

 

E-mail me at  stevebenesh(at)comcast.net and we can arrange a personal conversation on the subject over the phone at your convenience if you care to.

 

Steve

84KF

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:32 am Post subject: Series 5 Light Sport

Only one slight problem...  You weighed your plane tail down.  It should

have been weighed level.  Put your tail load cell on top of a support to

lift the tail so the plane is level.  For all practical purposes you may

notice a slight shift (probably forward) in CG.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

avidfox

Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 87

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:27 am Post subject: Series 5 Light Sport

Noel,

 The purpose of scales at that time was simply to determine (and verify) the empty weight.... which is the same regardless of attitude. 

  

 Steve

  [quote][b]

avidfox

Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 87

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: Re: Series 5 Light Sport

..... and this is how I level most "taildraggers" for rigging and actual weight and balance work.



Steve

84KF

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dcsfoto

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 120

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Series 5 Light Sport

I certificated my Model 7  as an E-LSA, prior to the deadline.

It came in just over 800 lbs, tricycle gear,912 ULS, IVO Prop



Do not arcive         David

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: Series 5 Light Sport

True but if, emphasis on the “if”, you use the info to calculate your W&B then the  balance part will be off a bit.  Practically speaking it may be very little.  

Can I borrow your scales for a year or two...  or ten J??  

   

Noel  

Do not archive  

   

     

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of 84KF

 Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 10:54 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport  

  

     

Noel,  

    

The purpose of scales at that time was simply to determine (and verify) the empty weight.... which is the same regardless of attitude.   

    

   

    

Steve  

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: Series 5 Light Sport

Wow! 



Beautiful plane,  Beautiful floor,  Beautiful hangar!



Noel 

Do not archive



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: Series 5 Light Sport

Jeff,

Just as another data point, my series 5 with series 7 fire wall forward came

in at 776 lbs with the grove spring gear and big heavy tires.  I do have the

912S.  I suspect that the Subaru will add a good bit of weight.



Randy Daughenbaugh,  N10NH

Black Hills of South Dakota, - Near Mount Rushmore

Home Strip, Grass   Room in Hangar for visitors

Series 5/7 (7 Firewall Forward) 912S, Warp Drive Taper Tip

Gross Weight 1320 lbs, Flying since November 2004

--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: Series 5 Light Sport

John,



Steve (84KF) was mistaken when he told you that a conversation about 

the use of Kitfox Series 5 aircraft by those operating under Sport 

Pilot rules would be "jumped on" by the moderators.  Civilized 

conversation that is Kitfox- and Avid-centered is welcome and 

encouraged.



Steve was also mistaken when he told you that the moderators are 

"amatuer (sic) hobbiest (sic again)" who don't have a clue.  Of 

course, he knows nothing about the background or experience of the 

moderators.



He has, however, provided an example of something that is not 

tolerated on this list--personal attacks.  Disagreeing is fine, being 

nasty about it is not.  He has been sanctioned for this type of 

behavior before but apparently is still unable to play nice with 

others.



Mike G.

Kitfox List Moderator

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Second, if we were to attempt to continue this discussion on line, 

here on the "List" we would be jumped on by the so called (cough 

cough) "moderators", all amatuer hobbiest, who don't have a clue 

what's going on, but will insist that a 25 year professional FAA 

representative and Part 147 educator is full of $#%&.

Mnflyer

Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 78

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Series 5 Light Sport

I don't see how one can get a Model 5 or Model 6/7's  certified Light Sport, to be LS the Max Gross wt has to be 1320 lbs or less(for Land planes) and the Model 5 has a factory Gross of either 1400 or 1550 lbs. Empty wt has no bearing on LS.

_________________
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III

RRTRACK(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: Series 5 Light Sport

Oh No !!!!!!!!!    Someone had to ask.

  

 I certified my Kitfox 5 at 1320#. Once you certify it at any thing above  1320 you can't go down again. But you can go up or certify it at 1320 to start  with. My statement has nothing to do with weather it is legal to fly LS in  planes above 1320 certified gross weight. Just pointing out a Kitfox can be  certified at 1320#.   

 Mark

Kitfox 5 Vixen

912UL IVO

Hartford,  Wisconsin





Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

helili(at)chahtatushka.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: Series 5 Light Sport

GB,

FAR 1.1 defines a light sport aircraft as:

Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or

powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet

the following:



(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than-



(i) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on

water; or



(ii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for operation on

water.

It does not state anything about gross weight.  It is up to the builder to

determine the maximum takeoff weight.  The kit manufacturer may state that

the kit, when completed, is capable of a maximum gross weight, or even a

maximum takeoff weight, but the builder may obtain a special airworthiness

certificate at whatever maximum takeoff weight he wishes, so long as the FAA

designee or inspector thinks it is safe at that weight and will issue the

certificate.  No harm in stating that a kit that can be, as far as the kit

provider is concerned, flown safely at 1500 lbs. being limited by the

builder at certification time to 1320 pounds.  It may be a bit reckless to

go the other way, and set the maximum takeoff weight at 1500 lbs. when the

kit provider states the kit is capable of 1200 pounds.  I don't think any

FAA designee or inspector worth his salt would allow the latter to happen

unless the builder has strengthened the airframe and con prove to the

designee or inspector that he/she has strengthened the airframe

sufficiently.



John Hart

--

valleyairport(at)cotterwe
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: Series 5 Light Sport

Did you not like the answer from EAA?

                                                                    Jay C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



 Answer :

We appreciate the effort you put forth in sending this question in, and it's 

a good one. However, the fact is we HAVE read the rule and applied it 

correctly, and we've checked again with the FAA legal department for 

clarification.



As you suggest, one must read the rule carefully and apply it correctly. The 

fact is, the devil is in the details of the wording of the definition of a 

light-sport aircraft (LSA) as called out in the regulations (Ref. 14 CFR 

1.1).



The very first line of the definition is the key. It states:



"Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or 

powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet 

the following:"



This verbiage clearly says that an aircraft must meet all the criteria 

called out in the definition of an LSA at the time of its original 

certification AND CONTINUOUSLY thereafter. One of the items it must meet is 

a maximum takeoff weight of 1320 lbs (1430 lbs for seaplanes). Since it must 

meet this requirement continuously since it's original certification, it can 

NEVER have been operated at a maximum takeoff weight of anything greater 

than the weight called out in the LSA definition. If it operates at a 

maximum takeoff weight greater than that called out in the definition EVEN 

ONE TIME, it no longer meets the definition and is not eligible for 

operation by sport pilots forever thereafter.



So the scenario you suggest, where a Kitfox has a maximum gross of 1400 lbs 

but can be operated at 1320 lbs by a sport pilot, won't work. If the 

aircraft has EVER been operated at a maximum takeoff weight of greater than 

1320 lbs, even if it was only one time, it no longer meets the definition of 

a light sport aircraft and is not eligible for operation by sport pilots.

---

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Series 5 Light Sport

just wondering... do you log the maximum weight in your log book for each takeoff ??? I would really like to see someone prove that you have made that one flight at greater than 1320.  I can tell you stories of guys overloading a supercub by 500 or more pounds day after day year after year, yet the airworthiness has never been questioned by the FAA.



If you get ramp checked and the inspector asks you if you have ever flown the plane at a max take off weight of greater than 1320 pounds and you tell him anything other than "no sir" you are a ... not to bright individual. 



 If you are so willing to try and twist the ruling to show you cant fly at KF 5 under sport pilot, why the heck can't you turn it around and see how you can.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Series 5 Light Sport

[quote="RRTRACK(at)aol.com"]Oh No !!!!!!!!!    Someone had to ask.

  

 I certified my Kitfox 5 at 1320#. Once you certify it at any thing above  1320 you can't go down again. But you can go up or certify it at 1320 to start  with. My statement has nothing to do with weather it is legal to fly LS in  planes above 1320 certified gross weight. Just pointing out a Kitfox can be  certified at 1320#.   

 Mark

Kitfox 5 Vixen

912UL IVO

Hartford,  Wisconsin



   	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	


where on the paper work did you specify the 1320 pounds?  I have nothing on my certification paperwork that states, or asks for the gross weight, or maximum take off weight.  I may be missing some of the paperwork that should have come with the plane as all logs were lost in a house fire per the previous owner.  I have requested all paperwork the FAA has on file yet have not received it.

RRTRACK(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: Series 5 Light Sport

As far as a Sport Pilot using an experimental homebuilt aircraft. I believe  it is required to test the flight characteristics at gross weight during the 40  hour phase and record the results in the log book. 

  

 At least that is what I have done with experimentals I built and test flew.  I used sand or salt bags to add passenger weight. And also conducted flight  tests with low and full fuel at near gross weights.

  

 I love the concept of flying a Kitfox 5 to 7 registered at 1500 gross as a  sport plane by limiting the take off weight to 1320#. Hopefully it can be done.  Keep me posted.   

 Mark

Kitfox 5 Vixen

912UL IVO

Hartford,  Wisconsin





Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

RRTRACK(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: Series 5 Light Sport

I believe it was on both the weight and balance and the "request" for  certification forms. But I do not have the paperwork here to see for sure. Is  there no upper weight limit to your weight and balance sheet, operating manual  or registration card? The gross weight is also required on the state  registration form in Wisconsin. 



Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

helili(at)chahtatushka.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: Series 5 Light Sport

The aircraft cannot be issued an experimental or E-LSA special airworthiness certificate specifying a maximum takeoff weight of more than 1320 pounds and flown under sport pilot rules.  Any builder can specify the maximum takeoff weight of his aircraft, and have the special airworthiness certificate list the maximum takeoff weight as 1320 pounds or less and operate under Sport Pilot rules.  If the you specify the maximum takeoff weight in the application for certification at 1320, that’s what you will get.  If you specify the maximum takeoff weight at 1500, that’s what you will get, and it don’t fit light sport rules.  

   

My Experimental (not E-LSA) KF IV shows a Gross Weight of 1250 on the data plate, and in the paperwork.  The kit producers specified gross weight for the finished  kit as 1200.  The builder made a few mods, said he wanted to have the Special Airworthiness Certificate to show a gross weight of 1250 on his application and that’s what he got.  Works the other way too.  

   

John Hart   

KF IV  

Wilburton, OK    

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RRTRACK(at)aol.com

 Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:54 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport  

  

  

     

As far as a Sport Pilot using an experimental homebuilt aircraft. I believe it is required to test the flight characteristics at gross weight during the 40 hour phase and record the results in the log book.   

    

   

    

At least that is what I have done with experimentals I built and test flew. I used sand or salt bags to add passenger weight. And also conducted flight tests with low and full fuel at near gross weights.  

    

   

    

I love the concept of flying a Kitfox 5 to 7 registered at 1500 gross as a sport plane by limiting the take off weight to 1320#. Hopefully it can be done. Keep me posted.     

   

    

Mark

 Kitfox 5 Vixen

 912UL IVO

 Hartford, Wisconsin  

  

  



 

         

  

Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.  

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