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ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
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 Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: Window Adhesive (again) |
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Hi all,
Did some research over the weekend on replacements for Weld-on. Here are some numbers I found on bond strength to acrylic:
WeldOn 10: 2700psi
SilPruf: 246 psi
Scotch Weld 2216 B/A: 1100 psi (shear) 500 psi tension (I think)
FE6026: dunno
Epoxy/flox: dunno
Sikaflex: dunno, but requires a minimum 3/16" bed
SilPruf is not recommended for structural applications and seems to be more a sealant. And it appears to have only 10% the bond strength of Weldon. Maybe I have dodgy data and am happy to be corrected by the fans. Given the bond strength of the Weld On, it seems to me that the windows become an integral part of the cabin and are therefore structural. I'm not sure I would feel comfortable behind Silpruf, especially for the windshield (but of course that is just my view based on the data I have so far).
I just can't find any tech data on the FE6026 that Jesse recommends and have no clue what the bond strength of epoxy/flox would be. I'm really keen to get some hard quantitative data before I make a decision. Can anyone fill in the gaps (whoops bad unintended pun)??
Cheers,
Ron
[quote]"Warning:
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ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: Window Adhesive (again) |
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I have to say Ron,
Silpruf may be just a "sealant" but given the circumference of the windows with a 3/4" reveal...I think I can live with 246 psi, (that pounds per square inch right...inch???) heck I built the whole airplane with no more than 90 psi in my compressor...course you know I'm razzain ya mate!! Too bad you can't get fresh Weldon...but I think you make up for it in fresh lobster and shrimp.
Rick Sked
40185
Man this thing is looking like an airplane!!
do not archive
---
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Jim Berry
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 237
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: Window Adhesive (again) |
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Ron,
Let me put in another plug for Hysol EA 9360. I found it very easy to work with while doing my windows. Afterwards I did some simple trials with plexi-fiberglass, plexi-alum., alum.-fiberglass, alum-alum. After 1 week cure all samples were virtually impossible to separate without destroying the bonded material. Working time is approx. 1 hour (at) 25C. Lancair uses this stuff for their pressurized windows(which are installed from the inside) and for bonding major wing and fuselage components. Tensile lap shear strength is 5000psi.
It can by air shipped, but that probably will not be necessary as there are 2 dealers in the land of Oz. Located in Kilsyth and Welland. I think I paid about $90US for a quart, which will be enough to do all your windows and anything else you want to never come apart.
Go to www.aerospace.henkel.com for specs. and msds sheets.
Jim Berry
40482
Well adhered
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ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: Window Adhesive (again) |
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Thanks Jim, forgot about Hysol. Contacted the Loctite distributor here
in Oz who manages Hysol products. Believe it or not, EA 9360 is not
available here and will need to be shipped over (Hazmat). There is a
product available locally (E-20 HP) that has a bond strength of 4000psi
between Aluminium and epoxy substrates, but only 290psi to Acrylics - it
is also a typical Loctite product with expected bond line of 2-9mils
thickness. No good for the gap between plexi and windshield. Just
can't win! . . . .
Cheers,
Ron
--
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kearney(at)shaw.ca
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: Window Adhesive (again) |
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Ron
I would be inclined to see what other similar aircraft are using. A few weeks ago I saw a “2 weeks to taxi” Glasair in a paint shop that used SIlpruf to attach the windows. In fact I have bought the AirLink Tech Silpruf video to see what is involved. This *suggests* that the Silpruf method is an acceptable way to install a/c windows.
Accepting you data as accurate, there is a big difference between Weldon10 and Silpruf. The key question to be answered is therefore is “what is an acceptable bond strength?” Intuitively, it would seem that 2700PSI is way over the top as far as requirements go. This implies the window would have to withstand a huge amount of force. I bet a nickel that the window or the other underlying material would be gone long before the actual bond broke.
Please share whatever else your research reveals – I am very interested as are others I am sure.
Cheers
Les Kearney
#40643
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
Sent: May-04-08 6:23 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Window Adhesive (again)
Hi all,
Did some research over the weekend on replacements for Weld-on. Here are some numbers I found on bond strength to acrylic:
WeldOn 10: 2700psi
SilPruf: 246 psi
Scotch Weld 2216 B/A: 1100 psi (shear) 500 psi tension (I think)
FE6026: dunno
Epoxy/flox: dunno
Sikaflex: dunno, but requires a minimum 3/16" bed
SilPruf is not recommended for structural applications and seems to be more a sealant. And it appears to have only 10% the bond strength of Weldon. Maybe I have dodgy data and am happy to be corrected by the fans. Given the bond strength of the Weld On, it seems to me that the windows become an integral part of the cabin and are therefore structural. I'm not sure I would feel comfortable behind Silpruf, especially for the windshield (but of course that is just my view based on the data I have so far).
I just can't find any tech data on the FE6026 that Jesse recommends and have no clue what the bond strength of epoxy/flox would be. I'm really keen to get some hard quantitative data before I make a decision. Can anyone fill in the gaps (whoops bad unintended pun)??
Cheers,
Ron
| Quote: | | "Warning:The information contained in this email and any attached files isconfidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intendedrecipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or anyattachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this emailin error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has beentaken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free,however, any loss or damage incurred in using this email is not thesender's responsibility. It is your responsibility to ensure viruschecks are completed before installing any data sent in this email toThe information contained in this email and any attached files is |
0 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
1 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
2 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
3 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
4 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
5 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
6 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
7 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
8 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
9 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
0 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
1 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
2 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
3 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
4 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
5 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
6 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
7 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
8 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
9 | Quote: | | recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any |
0 | Quote: | | recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any |
1
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Jim Berry
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 237
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Window Adhesive (again) |
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Ron,
According to the Henkel web site there are no restrictions to international air shipping fro Hysol. You might double check with them to see if it is really hazmat.
Jim Berry
40482
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msausen
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: Window Adhesive (again) |
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This reminds me, I have one of the AirLink window installation videos for sale if anyone is interested. It’s a VHS tape that is spotty on the quality of the video (you Sam James video watchers know what I mean) but very informative none the less. From Airlink I believe its $30 plus shipping. I’ll sell it for $20 +shipping. Contact me off list if interested.
Michael
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 1:09 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Window Adhesive (again)
Ron
I would be inclined to see what other similar aircraft are using. A few weeks ago I saw a “2 weeks to taxi” Glasair in a paint shop that used SIlpruf to attach the windows. In fact I have bought the AirLink Tech Silpruf video to see what is involved. This *suggests* that the Silpruf method is an acceptable way to install a/c windows.
Accepting you data as accurate, there is a big difference between Weldon10 and Silpruf. The key question to be answered is therefore is “what is an acceptable bond strength?” Intuitively, it would seem that 2700PSI is way over the top as far as requirements go. This implies the window would have to withstand a huge amount of force. I bet a nickel that the window or the other underlying material would be gone long before the actual bond broke.
Please share whatever else your research reveals – I am very interested as are others I am sure.
Cheers
Les Kearney
#40643
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
Sent: May-04-08 6:23 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Window Adhesive (again)
Hi all,
Did some research over the weekend on replacements for Weld-on. Here are some numbers I found on bond strength to acrylic:
WeldOn 10: 2700psi
SilPruf: 246 psi
Scotch Weld 2216 B/A: 1100 psi (shear) 500 psi tension (I think)
FE6026: dunno
Epoxy/flox: dunno
Sikaflex: dunno, but requires a minimum 3/16" bed
SilPruf is not recommended for structural applications and seems to be more a sealant. And it appears to have only 10% the bond strength of Weldon. Maybe I have dodgy data and am happy to be corrected by the fans. Given the bond strength of the Weld On, it seems to me that the windows become an integral part of the cabin and are therefore structural. I'm not sure I would feel comfortable behind Silpruf, especially for the windshield (but of course that is just my view based on the data I have so far).
I just can't find any tech data on the FE6026 that Jesse recommends and have no clue what the bond strength of epoxy/flox would be. I'm really keen to get some hard quantitative data before I make a decision. Can anyone fill in the gaps (whoops bad unintended pun)??
Cheers,
Ron
| Quote: | | "Warning:The information contained in this email and any attached files isconfidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intendedrecipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or anyattachments is expressly prohibited. If you have received this emailin error, please notify us immediately. VIRUS: Every care has beentaken to ensure this email and its attachments are virus free,however, any loss or damage incurred in using this email is not thesender's responsibility. It is your responsibility to ensure viruschecks are completed before installing any data sent in this email toThe information contained in this email and any attached files is |
0 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
1 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
2 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
3 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
4 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
5 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
6 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
7 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
8 | Quote: | | The information contained in this email and any attached files is |
9 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
0 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
1 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
2 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
3 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
4 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
5 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
6 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
7 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
8 | Quote: | | confidential to BAE Systems Australia. If you are not the intended |
9 | Quote: | | recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any |
0 | Quote: | | recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any |
1 | Quote: | | recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any |
2 | Quote: | | recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any |
3 | Quote: | | recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any |
4
[quote][b]
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dmaib@me.com
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Window Adhesive (again) |
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Re: Hysol,
Jim, can you tell why you specifically selected 9360 vs. many of the other variations? I am very interested in using this. We use it at work on the jets and I know it is great stuff and easy to work with. Also would like any tips, procedures, or processes you might have while using it for the window installations.
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_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL |
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Jim Berry
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 237
Location: Denver
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: Window Adhesive (again) |
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David,
Two reasons for selecting Hysol 9360. First, it was recommended to me by 2 local a&p's who have done the windows in 20-25 aircraft without a failure. Second, I figured if it was strong enough to hold Lancair wings together it would probably hold the windows in my -10. With a 5000 psi shear strength it is not likely to be a point of failure.
One thing I forgot to mention previously is that Hysol part B is thicker than Proseal. Warm it with a heat gun till it begins to soften before mixing it with part A. Other than that, it is easy stuff to work with.
Jim Berry
40482
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