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certification question

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DanM

Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 64
Location: Kingsburg, Calif.

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: certification question

I'm just about ready for my FAA inspection on my model IV, scheduled for mid October.  I can either certify it as experimetal amateur built or experimental light sport. Any body have any opinions or advice on this 

subject? Also, the FAA inspector told me I can't certify my Kitfox IV as experimental light sport only experimental amateur built. I think he's wrong but I need more information before I "discuss it" with him.



Thanks all

_________________
Dan Mc Intyre
Kitfox IV
Jabiru 2200 SN 1311 , 59.7 hours
Sensenich 62x46
N443DM

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: certification question

Hi Dan,



I am (finally!) getting my UK-built Model II certificated as Experimental -

Light Sport tomorrow morning, so I am probably one of the more

recently-knowledgeable listers regarding Kitfoxes and ELSA. My airplane was

actually ineligible for Amateur Built because the original builder is now

deceased and did not pass on build records, although I could get

documentation from the UK authority that would prove amateur built. I was

able to get Light Sport only because I got my N number before January of

this year and in the UK they do not issue Airworthiness Certificates to

amateur built.



My reason for wanting Light Sport is that I can do all my own maintenance

including annual inspection sign-offs (after an official 16 hour FAA course)

and although I have a full PPL I could fly it as a Sport Pilot with lower

requirements for a medical etc. The downside is that it can never fly at

night or IFR even if equipped, which my plane isn't anyway.



Off hand I would first ask you about these requirements:



1. Was it registered (N number) before Jan 31 2008?

2. Max gross less than 1320 lbs?

3. No in-flight adjustable prop, ground adjustable is ok

4. Max speed less than 120 knots?

5. Stall speed less than 45 knots?

6. Meets Light Sport build requirements, which I'm sure you can provide

documentation for?



Bob Brennan

1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

DanM

Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 64
Location: Kingsburg, Calif.

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: certification question

Hello Bob, yes my model IV meets all the requirements for light sport including the N number rule.

_________________
Dan Mc Intyre
Kitfox IV
Jabiru 2200 SN 1311 , 59.7 hours
Sensenich 62x46
N443DM

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: certification question

So what is the reason for "the FAA inspector told me I can't certify my

Kitfox IV as experimental light sport only experimental amateur built"

specifically?



--

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: certification question

I don't know but could I forward the possibilty that it is because Gov't 

appointed authorities have little or no practical knowledge of anything but 

like to flex the little power they have by pissing the rest of us off at any 

opportunity?

---

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: certification question

Well that is true - I was initially refused Light Sport because the regs say

that any aircraft that has already had an Airworthiness Certificate cannot

get Light Sport. My UK airplane flew on a UK Permit to Fly, which is

specifically only issued to aircraft that are *not* eligible for an ICAO

Certificate of Airworthiness. It says so on the CAA website. But that wasn't

good enough for the FAA, they needed a personalised statement from a CAA

official restating their policy. Fortunately I had been a dues-paying member

of the PFA, the UK arm of the CAA that handled amateur built aircraft. They

wrote the letter, I'm getting my certification.



What government officials are too lazy to do you may have to do yourself.

You do have rights, if your aircraft meets all the requirements - prove it.

Also - the EAA has an excellent legal staff that can prove to reluctant FAA

"officials" what they can and must do - if you are an EAA member, use it; if

not - join. 



Better to be pissed off than pissed on.



--

DanM

Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 64
Location: Kingsburg, Calif.

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:46 am Post subject: Re: certification question

The FAA guy told me the the light sport is only for heavy ultra lights that want to become legal. And you have to obtained your n number by Jan 08. I think he's wrong, but I don't want  to offend him before my inspection. John Mc Bean says better off to stay experimental AB. I think I'll take his advice.

_________________
Dan Mc Intyre
Kitfox IV
Jabiru 2200 SN 1311 , 59.7 hours
Sensenich 62x46
N443DM

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:29 am Post subject: certification question

Dan,



I agree with both the FAA guy and J McB, I chose Light Sport because even if

I provided enough documentation to get AB I would still be limited as to

what I could do to the plane due to not being the original builder. Also my

Kitfox 2, which was a "microlight" in the UK, fits the definition of a heavy

ultralight here and I did get my N number last year. All of the cons of ELSA

(no IFR, no night flying) don't matter to me while the pros (my own work and

inspections, can downgrade to Sport Pilot) do.



You, as the builder, wouldn't have those restrictions; and if you're not

concerned about a full PPL and medicals then Amateur Built is definitely

what you should get.



Bob Brennan

1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

dcsfoto

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 120

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: certification question

along with the prior jan 31 N reg you must have an exemption letter.

two organizations have the exemption,EAA is one do not remember the other

David  Kitkox 3

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: certification question

You must have the exemption letter *and* a personally signed assignment of

the exemption to your aircraft from an EAA official. Which, BTW, the EAA

were extremely helpful in providing quickly and accurately. 



Bob Brennan 

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox 

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop 

Wrightsville Pa 



--

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: certification question

 	  DanM wrote: 	
		  I'm just about ready for my FAA inspection on my model IV, scheduled for mid October.  I can either certify it as experimetal amateur built or experimental light sport. Any body have any opinions or advice on this 

subject? Also, the FAA inspector told me I can't certify my Kitfox IV as experimental light sport only experimental amateur built. I think he's wrong but I need more information before I "discuss it" with him.



Thanks all 	




Dan, I sense much confusion on the list about the LSA, ELSA, and Sport Pilot rules.  The only advantage I can think of having a Kitfox that you built registered ELSA over Experimental Amateur Built is being able to use it in a commercial operation, and I may be wrong about that.



I can tell you this much for sure:

A Kitfox Model 4 with a ground adjustable prop meets the definition of a Light Sport Aircraft.

I have a private pilot rating.

I let my FAA medical lapse.  

My Kitfox Classic 4 is registered Experimental Amateur Built.

I am flying it under Sport Pilot Rules.  

This is legal and has the blessing of my insurance Company, AIG.



I agree with John McBean, register your Kitfox Experimental Amateur Built.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

DanM

Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 64
Location: Kingsburg, Calif.

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:21 am Post subject: Re: certification question

Tom



I think I will do the same as you did since my situation is the same, I have PPL, a lapsed medical and an aircraft that meets the LSA rules. I will certify as experimental AB and fly as Light Sport. All will be legal.



And, thanks to all who responded to my initial question. No need to challenge the FAA guy now.

_________________
Dan Mc Intyre
Kitfox IV
Jabiru 2200 SN 1311 , 59.7 hours
Sensenich 62x46
N443DM

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