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passengers/ law suits?

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grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: passengers/ law suits?

Now that I have my SP license, I have a few friends that would like to go for a ride however I am scared to take them up due to the possibility of a lawsuit being filed against me in the event something bad happens and they get seriously injured or killed.  I was told that even if the person does not want to sue you that his/ her insurance company can sue you.



I know many of you probably take up passengers with you.  Do you worry about these things?



Is there any kind of legal document/ waiver that a passenger can sign stating in the event of an accident that I as the pilot and owner of the aircraft can not be held responsible for  the injury or death of the passenger?

Doctors have you sign the “hold harmless” paperwork before surgery.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: Re: passengers/ law suits?

There is a form just for this very possibility that you can download from AOPA.  This is a valid concern and I would have passengers sign this before flying with them.  This will cover you in some states, and some states not... But it sure could not hurt !



The AOPA form is geared towards certifie aircraft, I would also check with EAA for a similar form that applied more to experimental aircraft.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

njlabhart(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: passengers/ law suits?

Yes. Passengers can sue you if they  choose.

 However, if they choose not to, the insurance  companies

 will not pursue.  This was my  experience.  And God Bless

 Chris Davis for not suing as it would have caused  me to

 have to sell my home.

  

 Kolb Aircraft has a waiver they make anyone sign  that

 goes up in one of their planes.  Not sure if  something like

 that would be rock solid, but it would be a  start.

  

 Hope this helps.

 Dana Labhart

  

 do not archive

   [quote][b]

Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: Re: passengers/ law suits?

This is an excellent topic and faces any of us who carry passengers, even in non-owned aircraft.



I agree, a "written agreement" before the flying would not hurt and it will create a speed bump.  But if it is a bad situation, you will be sued anyway.



I buy as much liability insurance as I can get (and afford).  Often the policy offered will have a per person limit that is much less than the aggregate or per occurrence limits.  I have found that I can only buy this type w/o experience in a particular aircraft and after 1 year I can get "smooth" coverage that has the entire policy limits available to pay a claim.



I also own my planes in a LLC to buffer my personal exposure.  It does add to the annual cost to own, but, like insurance, it is another risk management tool.  



It is not any different than offering someone a ride in your car vs. your plane, if something goes wrong, you as the owner and/or driver/pilot are going to be in the middle of it.  But with most car owners, there is insurance in force to take care of the financial risks.



The sad part about it is the higher the limits of insurance you have the bigger target you are too.  Should you have an accident and there are injuries, a trial  lawyer will be more to take a case with the pot of gold vs. a victory with a big buck judgment and a defendant without the ability to pay.



I guess that may be a good rule of thumb for anyone, get good flying the plane, really good,  before taking up others.  I was told by my examiner that now I had a "license to learn more and gain experience".



My personal view is that it is irresponsible to operate an aircraft without liability insurance.  We can damage a lot of things with our planes and should either have the personal wealth to pay the damages or purchase financial insurance.



The first thing I did when I got my license in the 70's was to pack it up with my buddies and show them my stuff.   I never thought much about insurance then (did not buy it either) but understand I was 18, bullet proof and "a lot smarter"    than most  plus I had noting to loose either.  



It is fun to share the sport of flying with friends, but it is not without its risks. 

Fly safe,



Jim

Former Kolbster but still like to follow and learn from the list ...

_________________
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: Re: passengers/ law suits?

Grant, if you've never taken passengers for a ride, just remember the stall speed goes up, it sinks a lot more when the power is reduced, and the takeoff roll is longer. This sounds like I'm preaching to the choir, but it might be one of those things we forget when flying Light Aircraft. All of this, of course, depends on the weight of the passenger and this might be a touchy subject when giving rides to women.



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: passengers/ law suits?

I wanted to get a two-seater so I could take up close friends and relatives, to let them share in the glory of flying. I told my husband "I'll only take up good friends and relatives - people who won't sue at the drop of a hat."  "It's not your friends and relatives sueing us that I'm concerned about," he said.  "It's THEIR relatives - most of whom you don't know and who don't know you. And we're too old to start over again, financially."



When I went bungee jumping, I was asked to read out loud (to a rep of the company giving the jumps) a 3 page liability waiver form, and initial each paragraph after I read it. What that does is help protect the company against claims that you didn't realize it could be life-and-limb threatening.  As several folks on the thread have already noted, it doesn't prevent you from being sued. You can win the lawsuit and still be out a ton of money.



Having said that - if we hold back for fear of being sued - well, what's the fun in that type of life? 



Arty Trost

Maxair Drifter

Sandy, oregon



www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com



"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"

                      Helen Keller



"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

--- On Mon, 9/8/08, grantr <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: grantr <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com>

 Subject: passengers/ law suits?

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Monday, September 8, 2008, 10:40 AM

 

 <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com>

 

 Now that I have my SP license, I have a few friends that

 would like to go for a ride however I am scared to take them

 up due to the possibility of a lawsuit being filed against

 me in the event something bad happens and they get seriously

 injured or killed.  I was told that even if the person does

 not want to sue you that his/ her insurance company can sue

 you.

 

 I know many of you probably take up passengers with you. 

 Do you worry about these things?

 

 Is there any kind of legal document/ waiver that a

 passenger can sign stating in the event of an accident that

 I as the pilot and owner of the aircraft can not be held

 responsible for  the injury or death of the passenger?

 

 

 Doctors have you sign the “hold harmless” paperwork

 before surgery.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3225#203225

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: passengers/ law suits?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I also own my planes in a LLC to buffer my personal exposure. It does add to the annual cost to own, but, like insurance, it is another risk management tool. 

	




If the plane is owned by a LLC then you cant be personally sued correct?



Also If something did happen couldn't you just move all of your assets over to your spouses name or children? Then you wouldn't have anything for them to get!

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: passengers/ law suits?

First...I'm not a lawyer, and 2nd...the laws regarding LLCs vary from state to state.  Here in Oregon, my lawyer advised me that LLCs offer little protection if it can be established that you created one primarily as a shield from liability lawsuits.  

Arty Trost

Maxair Drifter

Sandy, OR

www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com

"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"

                      Helen Keller

"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

--- On Mon, 9/8/08, grantr <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: grantr <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com>

 Subject: Re: passengers/ law suits?

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Monday, September 8, 2008, 5:32 PM

 <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com>

 > 

 > I also own my planes in a LLC to buffer my personal

 exposure. It does add to the annual cost to own, but, like

 insurance, it is another risk management tool. 

 > 

 If the plane is owned by a LLC then you cant be personally

 sued correct?

 Also If something did happen couldn't you just move all

 of your assets over to your spouses name or children? Then

 you wouldn't have anything for them to get!

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3290#203290

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: passengers/ law suits?

I guess I'm a "fatalist", I take every precaution that I possibly can, then go ahead and do the best I can. I would not take any body up that I did not personally know without a very good reason. If I do take someone up, I make sure that I fly very carefully and safely, keeping in mind that stall speeds are up and the plane will be a lot heavier than I am used to. My best landings are reserved for passengers. Granted nothing is fool prof, but I personally do not intend to spend the rest of my days worrying about what could happen. If it somehow should bite me in the butt, so be it. I will deal with it when it happens.



I just returned from a "fishing and hunting trip down in the Owyhee Canyon that is too long to post here, but I will send it to anyone that would like to view it. It is 2280 KB.

Larry C, Oregon

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:23 am Post subject: passengers/ law suits?

I guess I'm a "fatalist", I take every precaution that I possibly can,>>



Hi Larry,



when I fly a passenger I always get them to sign what I have always called 

`a blood chit`. In case `chit` is not in general use in the US it is a piece 

of paper that is used, usually in the army, to cover your back.If you have 

bad feet and are `excused boots` you get a chit.If you have been excused a 

parade, you get a chit. You get the idea.

I write my own `blood chit` saying in plain language that flying is 

dangerous, the plane is not built to international standards,( we all carry 

a sticker to that effect stuck up in the cockpit) and that whatever happens 

is not my fault. Just keep it plain and simple.You are not trying to be a 

lawyer.



I think this practice is fairly standard. I don`t think it has ever been 

tested in court and in a bad case probably wouldn`t hold up but at least it 

puts you on the side of the angels and hopefully it would impress a jury 

that you had done your best to point out the danger.

Sometimes of course the passenger won`t sign, in which case they don`t fly.



Cheers



Pat

airgriff(at)surferz.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:03 am Post subject: passengers/ law suits?

Years ago, when looking for places to fly my powered parachute, I approached an owner of a small grass strip and said I have a waiver that would relieve you of any responsibility if I get hurt. He said “that’s nice, but that doesn’t stop your spouse or siblings from coming after me”. I said your right and I think this whole thing a bought suing is stupid. If I get hurt flying my aircraft on your property it’s my fault not yours. He shook my hand and said “your welcome to fly here when ever you want”.  

Fly Safe  

Bob Griffin   Berne NY  

       [quote][b]

njlabhart(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: passengers/ law suits?

Also If something did happen couldn't you just move all of your assets over  to your spouses name or children? Then you wouldn't have anything for them to  get!



  

 That's a great theory, but if you have a death,  that can't be done.

   [quote][b]

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: Re: passengers/ law suits?

I worked one up. maybe a bit overkill. 



                                                            ADULT 

Transportation Authorization, Liability Release and Indemnity Form 



ADULT PASSENGER: __________________________________



CHECKED PASSENGER ID: _____________DATE:______________ 

(Please Print) (Pilot or EA Initials) 

PILOT: __________________________________________________________ 

AIRCRAFT (Type and N-Number):____________________________________________________ N___________________ 

DRIVER: ____________________________________VEHICLE (Type & License Number):_________________________________ 



I understand that flying is a very dangerous activity and this aircraft  Kolb Mark III  N-1153 is an amateur  build experimental airplane that does not meet federal aviation safety standards. 

 I understand that the Owner of the Aircraft   Mr. Grant Richardson  is volunteering his services, time, skills, flight, aircraft, vehicles, and other related costs and expenses for the proposed flight. I, the undersigned Passenger and or any person or organization associated with me, in consideration of the furnishing of services, time, skills, flight, transportation, aircraft, vehicles, and other related costs and expenses being arranged and provided, hereby agree to forever release, discharge, and hold harmless  Mr. Grant Richardson, aircraft and vehicles owner(s) and/or lessor(s) (as applicable), each of their respective divisions, parents, family members, subsidiaries, member organizations, affiliates, chapters, officers, directors, agents, employees, volunteers, insurers, heirs, assigns, and successors in interest, and any and all entities who referred me to Mr. Grant Richardson, from any and all claims, demands, liability (under the law of any  county, municipality, state or country), fees, expenses, and costs of any kind whatsoever that I and or any person or organization associated with me may have or claim to have on account of or in any way related to or arising from, directly or indirectly, the proposed transportation and or flight, the cancellation or delay of the transportation, and/or the failure to provide return transportation. 

My release specifically includes, but is not limited to, any and all alleged negligent acts, errors, and omissions of any of the released persons or entities. In addition to economic damages, costs, and expenses, this release also specifically covers any and all injuries, deaths, and conditions of health, whether or not immediately apparent following the flight, or which may at any time thereafter develop. 

As evidenced by my signing this release, I and or any person or organization associated with me regard the services, time, skills, flight, aircraft, transportation, vehicles, and other related costs and expenses being furnished to me as significant, material, and valuable consideration in exchange for this release, and value this consideration as a significant, material factor in my well-being and physical prosperity. I have read and fully understand this document. I talked with  Mr. Grant Richardson about my questions concerning the proposed transportation and or flight. In connection with any portion of this document that I did not understand, I understand that I had and continue to have the right to obtain legal advice from an attorney of my choice. 

This agreement shall be binding upon all the heirs at law, assigns, and successors in interest of all parties hereto. This agreement may be enforced by any party hereto and/or by any person or organization released in this agreement. I agree that this agreement shall be governed and interpreted by the laws of the state of Georgia. 



PASSENGER SIGNATURE: 



______________________________________________________________ 



DATE:_______________

Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:51 am Post subject: Re: passengers/ law suits?

Thoughtful advice ---- "If I do take someone up, I make sure that I fly very carefully and safely, keeping in mind that stall speeds are up and the plane will be a lot heavier than I am used to. My best landings are reserved for passengers."  ........ Well said Larry.

_________________
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:46 am Post subject: passengers/ law suits?

I worked one up. maybe a bit overkill.:<<



I know that you are a litigious lot over there but that `blood chit` is 

frightening.  I just checked  on of mine and it says

"I the undersigned understand that the flight I am taking is not a 

commercial flight and that the pilot is absolved from any resposibilty or 

claim resulting in an accident. Signed and dated"



As I said in my original post I don`t think one of these chits has ever been 

tested in court and it doesn`t pretend to be a legal document. We just don`t 

sue for a pastime over here, but unfortunately we are slowly moving in your 

direction.



Pat

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: passengers/ law suits?

You must have insurance if you fly passengers otherwise your are risking all for THEIR amusement.



Those waivers do not hold up in court as the state a federal laws prevail regardless of anything you had them sign.



The only thing they are good for is to try and convince them not to go flying with you and as proof that you made them aware of risk(Maybe they get 2mil instead of 4 mil).



Insurance companies can and will recover their losses any way they can regardless of the policy holders wishes.



Its nice to share your fun with your friends but when the chips are down people do whatever they have to in order for their own families survival in which case all bets on how "nice" they are/were are off!



Bottom line is that YOU need insurance to fly them as doing otherwise is merely tempting fate.



Hate to sound so negative about it but that is the cold hard reality.



(Mileage of the above varies by each state having its own rules)

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
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