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grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: fuel line?

II want to replace my fuel lines. What is the best line to replace it with.



My instructor said he used vinyl line back in the 90s on a phantom and that same fuel line is still good. Its hard but will not break.



Tygon and the blue fuel lines are nothing like this.



Does anyone use vinyl fuel line?

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: Re: fuel line?

The tygon and clear vinyl type fuel lines are substandard and cheap, I would not use those on any plane.  They can be very easily cut, punctured, and go bad over time.  You never see this type of fuel line in real airplanes, not even in boats, cars, and motorcycles...  



You do have a couple good options, I use the Aeroquip aircraft fuel hose from Aircraft Spruce, it is expensive but very good, tough and durable.  I don't think I will ever have to replace it.   I also put the fire sleeve over it so that an engine fire wont melt through the fuel line and quickly become out of control.   The other good option is the black fuel line used for boats.  It is also very tough and wont go bad over time, you can get it at any marine store.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: fuel line?

> II want to replace my fuel lines. What is the best line to replace it 

with.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 My instructor said he used vinyl line back in the 90s on a phantom and 

 that same fuel line is still good. Its hard but will not break.



 Tygon and the blue fuel lines are nothing like this.



 Does anyone use vinyl fuel line?


	




Grant R:



What is wrong with black neoprene automotive fuel line?



I have been using Gates neoprene fuel line for many years and many hours.



Why would I use that instead of the "normal" ultralight fuel line?  Because 

vinyl, tygon, polyurethane, and all the rest of those neat lines that you 

can see the gas in are prone to failure, especially the pulse lines on two 

stroke engine driven fuel pumps.



Some will tell you you must be able to see inside the line so you can see if 

there is bubbles in there.  If you must see if there are air bubbles in the 

line, better not use neoprene.  For reliability and longevity, I'll stick to 

black neoprene fuel line.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: fuel line?

Thom Riddle researched this and will have an answer when he returns  

from vacation.

There is a qualified tygon variant available.

BB



On 8, Sep 2008, at 11:53 AM, grantr wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com>



 II want to replace my fuel lines. What is the best line to replace  

 it with.



 My instructor said he used vinyl line back in the 90s on a phantom  

 and that same fuel line is still good. Its hard but will not break.



 Tygon and the blue fuel lines are nothing like this.



 Does anyone use vinyl fuel line?





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3203#203203

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: fuel line?

At 11:53 AM 9/8/2008, grantr wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  II want to replace my fuel lines. What is the best line to replace it with.



My instructor said he used vinyl line back in the 90s on a phantom and 

that same fuel line is still good. Its hard but will not break.



Tygon and the blue fuel lines are nothing like this.



Does anyone use vinyl fuel line?


	


I use the transparent blue polyurethane line sold by ACS and other aircraft 

suppliers.  I know it's not as durable as black neoprene but I like to see 

if there's any air bubbles or other contamination.  Tygon IS vinyl.  Their 

yellow vinyl (specifically sold as "fuel and lubricant tubing") is OK but I 

feel it's too soft, hose clamps can cut into it... and it still hardens so 

you need to replace it every year, especially if there's any ethanol in 

your fuel.  I tried some generic yellow "fuel tubing", supposedly the same 

thing as the yellow Tygon, and it hardened up even sooner; I won't buy it 

again.  I would not use generic clear vinyl tubing, it's not made for fuel 

and oil.



-Dana

--

  Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake!

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: fuel line?

I think at least one LSA manufacturer is using Nylaflow tubing for fuel line.  At least that is what it looks like.  It might be worth looking into.  fairly inexpensive, easy to work with, and I would think very durable.



See it here http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/nylaflow.php

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: fuel line?

a follow up for the impatient:the manufacturer is Saint-Gobain.  Some of their products are available through McMaster-Carr

Their fuel rated tubing is F-4040 but their test is stated as using ethanol free gas.

They also make an ultra chemical resistant tubing F-2075 

http://tinyurl.com/ny6gt

BB

On 8, Sep 2008, at 3:45 PM, robert bean wrote:

[quote] [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: fuel line?

 	  Dana wrote: 	
		  



I know it's not as durable as black neoprene but I like to see 

if there's any air bubbles or other contamination.  



	




John H said it very well that there is no reason you need clear fuel line.  When was the last time you saw a Cessna, or any other type of aircraft or car with clear line so that you could " See " bubbles  ?  If you do not do something stupid in your fuel system design, like try to PULL fuel up with a fuel pump, bubbles will never be an issue.  In a properly designed fuel system, a leak would be indicated be a drip or a wet spot, not by bubbles and sudden engine stoppage...   Contamination, you are not likely to see it in the line...  That is what fuel sumps and filters are for.  You are fooling yourself if you think that you are safe from contamination, or that you will catch it because of clear fuel line.



Now you are willing to use fuel line that goes bad over time, is very prone to damage and even out of control leaks with even a little heat or mechanical abuse on the misguided belief that you need to be able to see the fuel in the line.  Thank god almost every manufacturer of vehicles in the world does not buy into this foolishness, or we would have cars burning on the side of the road, and airplanes coming down in fireballs every day.  That clear fuel line is cheap, and it is a hazard.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

robcannon

Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Posts: 39
Location: British Columbia

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: fuel line?

I recently was faced with the same question about fuel line, and asked a friend who is a meticulous marine mechanic.  He built a Beaver RX 550 over ten years ago and used clear yellow Tygon brand fuel line and is still using the original fuel line.  I inspected this 12 ish year old line and it was still soft and supple, and in good shape. (His was encased in black split loom)(uv protected)  

   Another chainsaw mechanic I spoke with said he has used it for years as the pickup line into the gas tank with no visible breakdown or hardening.  It can be cut easily, and therefore needs to be installed correctly, but I still believe it to be a good choice for ultralight fuel line, as it is proven to not break down for a long time. 

      It is possible that there are different brands of Tygon, but the kind I bought says "Tygon" on the box.

   Rob Cannon

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: fuel line?

At 09:15 PM 9/8/2008, JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  ...If you do not do something stupid in your fuel system design, like try 

to PULL fuel up with a fuel pump, bubbles will never be an issue.  In a 

properly designed fuel system, a leak would be indicated be a drip or a 

wet spot, not by bubbles...


	


Well, in the original UltraStar design, the tanks are below the engine... 

and too far away to mount a pulse pump to push the fuel, so pulling it is 

the only option.  If a leak develops anywhere, it's going to show up as 

bubbles... and I want to see them during my preflight runup.  With every 

inch of the fuel system visible during preflight inspection, it's easy to 

verify that the lines are intact... and no trouble to replace them every 

year or so.



-Dana



--

  A pilot is a confused soul who talks about women when he's flying, and 

about flying when he's with a woman.

1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: fuel line?

For what it is worth...RANS recently released a Service Bulletin saying 

to get rid of all the blue and clear poly-stuff fuel line and go to the 

automotive stuff.   The poly-stuff has been found to not like ethanol 

(there it is again ;-(  )   Supposedly there is some more expensive 

poly-stuff lines that are ethanol OK but why bother?  The SAE 30R7 stuff 

from GATES is available at every NAPA, doesn't mind ethanol and is 

(comparatively) cheap...



Jeremy

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:21 am Post subject: fuel line?

At 10:15 PM 9/8/2008, Jeremy Casey wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



For what it is worth...RANS recently released a Service Bulletin saying to 

get rid of all the blue and clear poly-stuff fuel line and go to the 

automotive stuff.   The poly-stuff has been found to not like ethanol 

(there it is again ;-(  )   Supposedly there is some more expensive 

poly-stuff lines that are ethanol OK but why bother?  The SAE 30R7 stuff 

from GATES is available at every NAPA, doesn't mind ethanol and is 

(comparatively) cheap...


	


The blue polyurethane tubing sold by Bing is specifically labeled "alcohol 

resistant fuel line"



-Dana

--

  Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:25 am Post subject: Re: fuel line?

 	  Quote: 	
		  ...If you do not do something stupid in your fuel system design, like try 

to PULL fuel up with a fuel pump, bubbles will never be an issue. In a 

properly designed fuel system, a leak would be indicated be a drip or a 

wet spot, not by bubbles... 

	




The way my MK III with the 503 is setup, the pulse pump pulls the fuel up to the engine. 



So is this the wrong way to have it setup? I don't have an electric pump. The only pump on mine  is the pulse pump.



Should I get an electric pump?

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject: fuel line?

<< The tygon and clear vinyl type fuel lines are substandard and cheap

.. >>

Grant -



I'll second JetPilot's statement above, and will back it up with this

short story:

(OK - maybe a medium length story)  (This all happened to me in the past

month.)  



I installed new fuel tanks in my Mark-3 (2 x 6 gal) recently.

They are the stock, top-feed type tanks, with the stainless 1/4" pipe

dropping down into the tank.  At the bottom end of the SS pipe is a

5-inch piece of flexible fuel hose, the other end of which is connected

to the finger screen, which rests on the bottom of the tank.



When installing these new tanks in June, I used Tygon for those two

5-inch pieces of flexible fuel line in each tank, for the finger

screens.  It was new, unused tubing that I happened to have in my

aircraft supply bin, so I used it.  It was in brand new condition -

soft, flexible, very rubbery.  Since there is zero stress on that little

piece of fuel line sitting at the bottom of the tank, I figured it would

be OK.  I was wrong.



(NOTE - the entire rest of my fuel system is plumbed using the black

Neoprene automotive fuel line, as you've seen recommended already in

this thread.)



After only 3 months of sitting in gasoline, that piece of flex line lost

its flexibility, and actually expanded a little bit.  I discovered this

last week when I went to start the engine, and I turned on the electric

fuel pump (before starting the engine).  I can always confirm that the

EFP is pushing fuel uphill to the engine when I see the fuel bubbling

though the clear glass fuel filter, located up at engine level.  



I saw no fuel flowing through the fuel filter, even though the EFP was

on.

(Here's a plug for being able to see your fuel somewhere in the fuel

circuit, even if only at one point!)



The tanks each still had a gallon of gas, so the pickup screens were

well submerged in fuel.  But the junction of the flex line and SS pipe

was ABOVE the fuel level, and air was being sucked into the fuel line

from the space between the inside of the flex line and the SS pickup

pipe.  I couldn't believe that Tygon would lose its flexibility so

quickly from sitting in gas.



Right away, I replaced the Tygon with the black Neoprene auto fuel line

(I use Gates, heavy wall), and all is well again.



Dennis Kirby

Mark-3 Classic, N93DK

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: fuel line?

II want to replace my fuel lines. What is the best line to replace it with.



 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>


	


I went to the NAPA store and bought some black rubber fuel line,,,   been on

for about 5 years now..    the plastic line that came with the kit  gave me

problems after 6 months,,, the clamps that came with the kit left a very

small area on the fuel line fittings that would not seal well....  while

checking on some staining on 1 carb, I was doing some pressure test and

found a very small leak coming from the connection...  put in the black hose

and never found any problem since.



Boyd Young

MkIIIC

500 + hours

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: fuel line?

At 04:57 PM 9/9/2008, Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...When installing these new tanks in June, I used Tygon for those two

5-inch pieces of flexible fuel line in each tank...

...air was being sucked into the fuel line

from the space between the inside of the flex line and the SS pickup

pipe.  I couldn't believe that Tygon would lose its flexibility so

quickly from sitting in gas.


	


Dennis, since we've been discussing various types of tubing, what kind of 

Tygon was it?  Their yellow "Fuel and Lubricant Tubing"?  Or something else?



-Dana



--

  People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's safer 

to pick on rich women than biker gangs.

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: fuel line?

Dennis

I hope everyone reads and remembers your story -- only way to fly  

safe is to check EVERYTHING you can, whether you think it needs  

checking or not. Sounds as tho your attention to detail avoided an in- 

flight engine-out.

Good man , nice going

do not archive

On Sep 9, 2008, at 4:57 PM, Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 AL" <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil>





 << The tygon and clear vinyl type fuel lines are substandard and cheap

 ... >>

 Grant -



 I'll second JetPilot's statement above, and will back it up with this

 short story:

 (OK - maybe a medium length story)  (This all happened to me in the  

 past

 month.)



 I installed new fuel tanks in my Mark-3 (2 x 6 gal) recently.

 They are the stock, top-feed type tanks, with the stainless 1/4" pipe

 dropping down into the tank.  At the bottom end of the SS pipe is a

 5-inch piece of flexible fuel hose, the other end of which is  

 connected

 to the finger screen, which rests on the bottom of the tank.



 When installing these new tanks in June, I used Tygon for those two

 5-inch pieces of flexible fuel line in each tank, for the finger

 screens.  It was new, unused tubing that I happened to have in my

 aircraft supply bin, so I used it.  It was in brand new condition -

 soft, flexible, very rubbery.  Since there is zero stress on that  

 little

 piece of fuel line sitting at the bottom of the tank, I figured it  

 would

 be OK.  I was wrong.



 (NOTE - the entire rest of my fuel system is plumbed using the black

 Neoprene automotive fuel line, as you've seen recommended already in

 this thread.)



 After only 3 months of sitting in gasoline, that piece of flex line  

 lost

 its flexibility, and actually expanded a little bit.  I discovered  

 this

 last week when I went to start the engine, and I turned on the  

 electric

 fuel pump (before starting the engine).  I can always confirm that the

 EFP is pushing fuel uphill to the engine when I see the fuel bubbling

 though the clear glass fuel filter, located up at engine level.



 I saw no fuel flowing through the fuel filter, even though the EFP was

 on.

 (Here's a plug for being able to see your fuel somewhere in the fuel

 circuit, even if only at one point!)



 The tanks each still had a gallon of gas, so the pickup screens were

 well submerged in fuel.  But the junction of the flex line and SS pipe

 was ABOVE the fuel level, and air was being sucked into the fuel line

 from the space between the inside of the flex line and the SS pickup

 pipe.  I couldn't believe that Tygon would lose its flexibility so

 quickly from sitting in gas.



 Right away, I replaced the Tygon with the black Neoprene auto fuel  

 line

 (I use Gates, heavy wall), and all is well again.



 Dennis Kirby

 Mark-3 Classic, N93DK

Jim Baker

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 181
Location: Sayre, PA

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: fuel line?

X-SpamReason %%SpamReason%%: 



 	  Quote: 	
		   When installing these new tanks in June, I used Tygon for those two

 5-inch pieces of flexible fuel line in each tank


	


snip...



 	  Quote: 	
		   After only 3 months of sitting in gasoline, that piece of flex line lost

 its flexibility, and actually expanded a little bit.


	


Then, on the other side of the experience continuum....



I have fuel grade Tygon F-4040-A fuel and lubricant tubing at the 

bottom of my tanks, in a setup similar to yours, and they've been 

there for 13 years. Still like new with very minor swelling and no 

cracks, abrasions.



There's a huge difference in Tygon formulations. Just happening to 

have some yellow tubing lying around doesn't ensure that it's the 

correct formulation. I'm sure that most folks are convinced that 

Tygon is the Devil's own spawn and I'd have to say that assumption 

would be correct...IF you haven't taken the time to research the 

issue.



Jim Baker

580.788.2779

Elmore City, OK

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:36 am Post subject: fuel line?

To keep my tank pickups simple I have only straight dip tubes with no  

floppy devices at the bottom.

I cut the ends at an angle.  I think they end about 3/8" from the  

bottom.  I have some unusable fuel

but I wouldn't be trying to get that last few ounces anyway.

BB

On 9, Sep 2008, at 10:13 PM, Jim Baker wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 X-SpamReason %%SpamReason%%:

> When installing these new tanks in June, I used Tygon for those two

> 5-inch pieces of flexible fuel line in each tank

 snip...

> After only 3 months of sitting in gasoline, that piece of flex  

> line lost

> its flexibility, and actually expanded a little bit.

 Then, on the other side of the experience continuum....

 I have fuel grade Tygon F-4040-A fuel and lubricant tubing at the

 bottom of my tanks, in a setup similar to yours, and they've been

 there for 13 years. Still like new with very minor swelling and no

 cracks, abrasions.

 There's a huge difference in Tygon formulations. Just happening to

 have some yellow tubing lying around doesn't ensure that it's the

 correct formulation. I'm sure that most folks are convinced that

 Tygon is the Devil's own spawn and I'd have to say that assumption

 would be correct...IF you haven't taken the time to research the

 issue.

 Jim Baker

 580.788.2779

 Elmore City, OK

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:09 am Post subject: fuel line?

> To keep my tank pickups simple I have only straight dip tubes with no

 	  Quote: 	
		   floppy devices at the bottom.

 I cut the ends at an angle.  I think they end about 3/8" from the  bottom. 

 I have some unusable fuel

 but I wouldn't be trying to get that last few ounces anyway.

 BB


	




Bob B:



I have always pulled fuel from the bottom of tanks, US, FS, and mkIII.  I 

don't want the engine to quit and still have a gallon of gas in the tanks to 

crash with.  



Never did like multiple tanks and dip tubes, but that is strictly personal.



My engine driven pump does a good job of pulling fuel (flown at 14,500 feet 

MSL wide open throttle), although I help it along with a Facet electric pump 

on takeoff, landing, and during low level flight, which is most of the time. 

Would probably never get the standby pump turned on if I lost an engine due 

to fuel pump on takeoff, landing, or low level flying.



I figure if I get myself into an impending crash I can turn off the master 

switch and alternator switch which will shut down the electrical system, and 

isolate it all the way back to the battery.  However, don't think I have 

ever remembered to do this on any of my crashes to date.  Hardly ever hear 

of a post crash fire in a Kolb, but there is always that one time.  I don't 

want to be the victim.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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