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tiethoff
Joined: 02 Sep 2008
Posts: 23
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 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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Dear Jay, why in the world should a professional System Engineer like you use a automotive engine in a airplane ?
From: caldwell (caldwell(at)mswin.net)
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 9:44 AM
To: 'jorge alonso' (jorge(at)crossflow.com)
Subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine
Jorge...
I finally reached the point where I have the engine mounted in my Zenith CH-801. The Instrument Panel with Engine instrumentation is connected. For the last three weeks I have attempted to start the engine. It was apparent the injectors and the plugs were not firing. I was assured by your Sales Manager the engine had been run before it left your factory.
In frustration, we finally removed the ECU to examine it. By this time we had done a complete continuity check on all of the circuits checking for good connections and no shorts or grounds. I was confident all of the connections were good and this proved to be the case. We checked all of the voltages and they were acceptable. Finally we opened the ECU to look for any evidence of damage. We found none, but we did discover the manufacturer of the ECU to be DTA and the model was the PR8 w/Ver 3.0 of the software. We accessed their site and downloaded their software and manual. I have been saying we and the we is myself and my son Michael. He is well versed in software as am I. We have worked with Leading Edge ECUs and Electromotive TEK II. My son scanned the forum and found a person in Norway who had had similar troubles as we did with an engine. DTA pointed out that if there is not a clear Crank Position signal, the ECU will not fire the injectors or the plugs.
We were suspicious. Now the Crank signal is a magnetic reluctance pick up as you well know. This is a high impedance, low voltage signal and in such cases it is prudent to use shielded twisted pair with a drain. You had. Now one other thing that is sound engineering (I am an Electrical Engineer by trade) is that you don't ground by ends of the drain. This causes circulating currents and will induce no end of noise. I found you had grounded both ends of the shield on the crank sensor signal line. We clipped the drain at the sensor end and lo and behold the engine started. DTA also states that one should not put the coils in parallel for wasted spark applications as this can blow out the coil drivers. Their installation instructions are to put the two coils in series.
To conclude, I am significantly disappointed and upset at your design and manufacturing of this engine. You obviously don't understand the proper design for signal lines and don't seem to follow the instructions from the DTA ECU designers. It would severely disastrous for a coil driver to blow at 12000 feet!. It is also apparent the engine had not been run prior to shipment because you wouldn't have been able to start the engine any more than I could.
I think you need to notify all of your customers of these issues and immediately issue corrective instructions.
Jay Caldwell
Caldwell Systems Engineering (CSE), LLC
San Diego, CA 92122
caldwell(at)mswin.net (caldwell(at)mswin.net)
Voice 858-453-4594
Facsimile 858-452-1560
Mobile 858-336-0394
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[b]
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mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:33 am Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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Dear Eric, A Professional Systems Engineer can see the great advantage of efficiency and proven reliability designed into the newer automotive engines, as opposed to the antiquated 1930’s and 40’s designs of the, not so modern, certified aviation engine.
--
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jay(at)horriblehyde.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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Dear other Jay 
I too am using the Subaru engine- there are some problems with the application of these in aircrft, but there are also good reasons to use well proven, fantastically engineered engines that have been perfected in automotive applications, where these engines have benfited from HUNDEREDS OF THOUSANDS of hours of testing and are used globally in a very demanding and compeditive market. A small example, automotive spark plugs are warranted for 100,000 miles of use, and cost almost nothing (but are amongst the best engineered bits in the vehicle) - where do you get that in an aircraft? The economies of scale simply means that automotive engines are vastly more well researched and produced than aero engines- and for a fraction of the cost because of these economies of scale.
We just have to figure out how the heck to best apply all of those advantages to our applications.
I have also been having some problems with Crossflow, and I am being patient because these guys simply do not have the market that allows them the luxury of large R&D budgets. I hope that these engines are successful and that Crossflow addresses these problems quickly... I am somewhat concerned about the post here though...
Jay from South Africa...
[quote]---
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jay(at)horriblehyde.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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Uh-oh; just realised that I should have addressed my response to Eric, not 'the other Jay'
[quote]---
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tiethoff
Joined: 02 Sep 2008
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:31 am Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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Dear Jay, there are also modern aviation engines on the market. But they are certainly not cheaper than automotive engines. They are designed for aircraft operations. Sudden temp changes, density changes etc. With an automotive engine you could probably taxi for 20.000 miles without any problem. You can fill in the rest...
From: ROGER & JEAN CURTIS (mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net)
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 1:31 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Crossflow Subaru Engine
Dear Eric, A Professional Systems Engineer can see the great advantage of efficiency and proven reliability designed into the newer automotive engines, as opposed to the antiquated 1930’s and 40’s designs of the, not so modern, certified aviation engine.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Tiethoff (HCCNet)
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 6:45 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Crossflow Subaru Engine
Dear Jay, why in the world should a professional System Engineer like you use a automotive engine in a airplane ?
From: caldwell (caldwell(at)mswin.net)
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 9:44 AM
To: 'jorge alonso' (jorge(at)crossflow.com)
Subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine
Jorge...
I finally reached the point where I have the engine mounted in my Zenith CH-801. The Instrument Panel with Engine instrumentation is connected. For the last three weeks I have attempted to start the engine. It was apparent the injectors and the plugs were not firing. I was assured by your Sales Manager the engine had been run before it left your factory.
In frustration, we finally removed the ECU to examine it. By this time we had done a complete continuity check on all of the circuits checking for good connections and no shorts or grounds. I was confident all of the connections were good and this proved to be the case. We checked all of the voltages and they were acceptable. Finally we opened the ECU to look for any evidence of damage. We found none, but we did discover the manufacturer of the ECU to be DTA and the model was the PR8 w/Ver 3.0 of the software. We accessed their site and downloaded their software and manual. I have been saying we and the we is myself and my son Michael. He is well versed in software as am I. We have worked with Leading Edge ECUs and Electromotive TEK II. My son scanned the forum and found a person in Norway who had had similar troubles as we did with an engine. DTA pointed out that if there is not a clear Crank Position signal, the ECU will not fire the injectors or the plugs.
We were suspicious. Now the Crank signal is a magnetic reluctance pick up as you well know. This is a high impedance, low voltage signal and in such cases it is prudent to use shielded twisted pair with a drain. You had. Now one other thing that is sound engineering (I am an Electrical Engineer by trade) is that you don't ground by ends of the drain. This causes circulating currents and will induce no end of noise. I found you had grounded both ends of the shield on the crank sensor signal line. We clipped the drain at the sensor end and lo and behold the engine started. DTA also states that one should not put the coils in parallel for wasted spark applications as this can blow out the coil drivers. Their installation instructions are to put the two coils in series.
To conclude, I am significantly disappointed and upset at your design and manufacturing of this engine. You obviously don't understand the proper design for signal lines and don't seem to follow the instructions from the DTA ECU designers. It would severely disastrous for a coil driver to blow at 12000 feet!. It is also apparent the engine had not been run prior to shipment because you wouldn't have been able to start the engine any more than I could.
I think you need to notify all of your customers of these issues and immediately issue corrective instructions.
Jay Caldwell
Caldwell Systems Engineering (CSE), LLC
San Diego, CA 92122
caldwell(at)mswin.net (caldwell(at)mswin.net)
Voice 858-453-4594
Facsimile 858-452-1560
Mobile 858-336-0394
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jay(at)horriblehyde.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:55 am Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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Ever thought about the huge thermal thermal cycles that an auto engine has to go through? - you have to have a really well engineered product to handle that...
[quote]---
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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And few automotive engines run at 75% power for more than a few seconds
at a time. The only efficiency advantage you might see in an auto engine
is in the ignition timing, which is easily corrected in aircraft engines
with electronic ignition. There is no efficiency difference between
aircraft injection systems and automotive beyond the closed loop oxygen
sensor feedback, which won't live with leaded fuel. So far, an
intelligent pilot can do a better job managing mixture than an
electronic system.
jay(at)horriblehyde.com wrote:
[quote] Ever thought about the huge thermal thermal cycles that an auto engine
has to go through? - you have to have a really well engineered product
to handle that...
---
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
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n801bh(at)NetZero.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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Because we CAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Eric Tiethoff (HCCNet)" <j.e.tiethoff(at)hccnet.nl> wrote:
Dear Jay, why in the world should a professional System Engineer like you use a automotive engine in a airplane ?
From: caldwell (caldwell(at)mswin.net)
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 9:44 AM
To: 'jorge alonso' (jorge(at)crossflow.com)
Subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine
Jorge..
I finally reached the point where I have the engine mounted in my Zenith CH-801. The Instrument Panel with Engine instrumentation is connected. For the last three weeks I have attempted to start the engine. It was apparent the injectors and the plugs were not firing. I was assured by your Sales Manager the engine had been run before it left your factory.
In frustration, we finally removed the ECU to examine it. By this time we had done a complete continuity check on all of the circuits checking for good connections and no shorts or grounds. I was confident all of the connections were good and this proved to be the case. We checked all of the voltages and they were acceptable. Finally we opened the ECU to look for any evidence of damage. We found none, but we did discover the manufacturer of the ECU to be DTA and the model was the PR8 w/Ver 3.0 of the software. We accessed their site and downloaded their software and manual. I have been saying we and the we is myself and my son Michael. He is well versed in software as am I. We have worked with Leading Edge ECUs and Electromotive TEK II. My son scanned the forum and found a person in Norway who had had similar troubles as we did with an engine. DTA pointed out that if there is not a clear Crank Position signal, the ECU will not fire the injectors or the plugs.
We were suspicious. Now the Crank signal is a magnetic reluctance pick up as you well know. This is a high impedance, low voltage signal and in such cases it is prudent to use shielded twisted pair with a drain. You had. Now one other thing that is sound engineering (I am an Electrical Engineer by trade) is that you don't ground by ends of the drain. This causes circulating currents and will induce no end of noise. I found you had grounded both ends of the shield on the crank sensor signal line. We clipped the drain at the sensor end and lo and behold the engine started. DTA also states that one should not put the coils in parallel for wasted spark applications as this can blow out the coil drivers. Their installation instructions are to put the two coils in series.
To conclude, I am significantly disappointed and upset at your design and manufacturing of this engine. You obviously don't understand the proper design for signal lines and don't seem to follow the instructions from the DTA ECU designers. It would severely disastrous for a coil driver to blow at 12000 feet!. It is also apparent the engine had not been run prior to shipment because you wouldn't have been able to start the engine any more than I could.
I think you need to notify all of your customers of these issues and immediately issue corrective instructions.
Jay Caldwell
Caldwell Systems Engineering (CSE), LLC
San Diego, CA 92122
caldwell(at)mswin.net (caldwell(at)mswin.net)
Voice 858-453-4594
Facsimile 858-452-1560
Mobile 858-336-0394
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[quote][b]
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n801bh(at)NetZero.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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Hi Kelly. I should remind you that ALOT of automotive engines spend thier entire life at very high power settings. Take for instance any rental truck, Ryder, Uhaul, etc... These box trucks are underpowered and run wide open up and down roads and interstates day in and out, Most of us have rented one at a time in our life and we all know first hand the scenerio. Get the truck, fill it over its weight limit, don't check the oil or water and hit the road. Warm up ?? whats that ? Hold it wide open for 300 miles, stop, fill with fuel and repeat. Do that all day and then turn it in to a local dealer, they might sweep out the box and the next day off it goes on another reaming, day after day, week after week. year after year... See my point ? Don't even get me started on auto engines used in marine applications,,, They get the severe treatment...
Cheers and tailwinds Ben
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
And few automotive engines run at 75% power for more than a few seconds
at a time. The only efficiency advantage you might see in an auto engine
is in the ignition timing, which is easily corrected in aircraft engines
with electronic ignition. There is no efficiency difference between
aircraft injection systems and automotive beyond the closed loop oxygen
sensor feedback, which won't live with leaded fuel. So far, an
intelligent pilot can do a better job managing mixture than an
electronic system.
jay(at)horriblehyde.com wrote:
[quote] Ever thought about the huge thermal thermal cycles that an auto engine
has to go through? - you have to have a really well engineered product
to handle that...
---
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jon(at)finleyweb.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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Sure be nice if you guys would take it elsewhere.
Those of US that have done our research and are flying, KNOW what the advantages are. Those of you stuck in the 40's will always have a negative attitude towards computers, any type of carriage other than horse-drawn, and believe that the solar system revolves around the earth. Please do some actual research before spewing old-wives tales and century old opinions....
Jon
--
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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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| Quote: | Sure be nice if you guys would take it elsewhere.
Those of US that have done our research and are flying, KNOW what the
advantages are. Those of you stuck in the 40's will always have a
negative attitude towards computers, any type of carriage other than
horse-drawn, and believe that the solar system revolves around the
earth. Please do some actual research before spewing old-wives tales and
century old opinions....
|
I had occasion to visit the Air Force National
Aviation Museum in Dayton last summer. Of particular
interest was the evolution of power plants and
the pilots willing to fly them. When I tracked
the changes from Orville and Wilbur's first
efforts through history to modern engines, two
things stood out strongly:
(1) Change is constant and good. There's no reason
to lock our choice of engines to the best-we-knew-
how-to-do in 1980, or 1960, . . . . or 1935 simply
because the user is "comfortable" with the technology.
There are individuals who have done their best
to duplicate the engines used by the Wrights and
they are comfortable with their performance and
limitations.
(2) The most profound and useful changes tend to
come from "outlyers" . . . folks NOT currently
occupied with satisfaction of market demands.
The market seldom demands advancement
of anything. New technologies should first be
examined by folks who are not part of the
established market.
I'd like to think that the leading edge of development
and exploration is not limited to the shops at
Mojave or Edwards. It's going on everywhere and
the fleet of OBAM aircraft is the logical market
for proving the value of any product that a owner/
pilot is willing to fly.
A lot of words used here on the List go to
procurement, integration, testing and flying
the best-we-knew-how-to-do from decades of
development already gone by. Just because
a discussion focuses on the best-yet-to-be
does not change our mission.
One cannot spend too much time sifting
the simple-ideas that go into any installation
be it a 1940 or 2008 design. Irrespective of
the age of the technology, sifting out the
'clinkers' goes directly to risk reduction.
I'll suggest this subject is entirely appropriate
to a technical forum.
If one has data or logical anecdotes to share
that rebut an "ol wives tale" or advance an idea
it is sufficient to refine the thinking while
avoiding comments personal to the participants.
Bob . . .
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jon(at)finleyweb.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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Ok, if REALLY interested in learning, a good place to start is with the articles listed here:
http://www.finleyweb.net/JonsStuff/AutomotiveEngineConversions/tabid/213/Default.aspx (watch for line wrap).
Both of these are from Ross Farnam of SDS EFI in Canada. Both present lots of information and facts that the reader can research further if interested. A good example is the "old wives tale" that auto engines are not designed for continuous high power settings. It actually takes very little research to find that this is false. The problem is, most of the people that believe this "wives tale" are unwilling to do enough research to discover this for themselves. I'm not a psychologist but, as near as I can tell, it because this is an emotional topic to them so they convince themselves that they already know the truth. However; the AeroElectric group is a pretty savvy bunch so I am sure all the nay-sayers will take the time to read and do further research so that they are fully educated on the subject prior to posting responses or spreading "old wives tales".
Jon
--
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echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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jay(at)horriblehyde.com wrote:
[quote] Ever thought about the huge thermal thermal cycles that an auto engine
has to go through? - you have to have a really well engineered product
to handle that...
---
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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Some of us know that most current aircraft engines were actually
developed in the sixties, and have worked on both types of engine for
years, and know what the actual differences are, and what the limited
benefits the newer design auto engines have. For instance Porsche did
their damnest to design an engine to improve on the Lycoming IO-360. The
result was heavier, no more powerful and used more fuel, and failed on
the market. That design was done in the late 80's, so don't tell me
about the great new auto technology. Most of what you have now was
developed in the 60s and 70s.
KM
A&P/IA
certified emissions tech
jon(at)finleyweb.net wrote:
| Quote: | Sure be nice if you guys would take it elsewhere.
Those of US that have done our research and are flying, KNOW what the
advantages are. Those of you stuck in the 40's will always have a
negative attitude towards computers, any type of carriage other than
horse-drawn, and believe that the solar system revolves around the
earth. Please do some actual research before spewing old-wives tales
and century old opinions....
Jon
*
*
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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dale.r(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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Ernest Christley wrote:
| Quote: | ...
The air-cooled aviation engines have a temp range of 0*F to 400*F.
Below 0 and the thing won't start, since the aluminum head shrinks
more that the steel piston.
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Pardon my ignorance, but does Lycoming and/or Continental ~really~ use
steel pistons? I would have thought they'd use forged aluminum. I
would think that the inertia of a steel piston would put horrendous
loads on the crank throws.
Dale R.
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bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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Yeah, the piston is aluminum. I don't believe that they are even forged,
unless aftermarket. The OEM pistons are cast. The head is aluminum. The
barrel is steel.
Seizing problems are a lot more likely to be at the hot end than the
cold, but I've never heard of one seizing a piston. Melting a piston
from detonation, yes.
Cold starting issues have more to do with lack of lubrication with cold,
thick oil than with clearances. The old radials had provisions for
diluting the oil with fuel before shutdown if a cold start was
anticipated for the next morning. Once it warms up, the fuel evaporates
off and the oil regains its normal viscosity.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
Dale Rogers wrote:
| Quote: |
Ernest Christley wrote:
> ...
> The air-cooled aviation engines have a temp range of 0*F to 400*F.
> Below 0 and the thing won't start, since the aluminum head shrinks
> more that the steel piston.
Pardon my ignorance, but does Lycoming and/or Continental ~really~ use
steel pistons? I would have thought they'd use forged aluminum. I
would think that the inertia of a steel piston would put horrendous
loads on the crank throws.
Dale R.
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echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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Dale Rogers wrote:
| Quote: |
Ernest Christley wrote:
> ...
> The air-cooled aviation engines have a temp range of 0*F to 400*F.
> Below 0 and the thing won't start, since the aluminum head shrinks
> more that the steel piston.
Pardon my ignorance, but does Lycoming and/or Continental ~really~ use
steel pistons? I would have thought they'd use forged aluminum. I
would think that the inertia of a steel piston would put horrendous
loads on the crank throws.
Dale R.
It may very well be my ignorance, but it was my understanding that the
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aluminum shrank more than the pistons with the cold. Air cooled engines
are force to have tighter tolerances for that reason. It is probably
just the rings that are steel.
--
http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org
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echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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Ed Holyoke wrote:
| Quote: |
<bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>
Yeah, the piston is aluminum. I don't believe that they are even
forged, unless aftermarket. The OEM pistons are cast. The head is
aluminum. The barrel is steel.
Seizing problems are a lot more likely to be at the hot end than the
cold, but I've never heard of one seizing a piston. Melting a piston
from detonation, yes.
Cold starting issues have more to do with lack of lubrication with
cold, thick oil than with clearances. The old radials had provisions
for diluting the oil with fuel before shutdown if a cold start was
anticipated for the next morning. Once it warms up, the fuel
evaporates off and the oil regains its normal viscosity.
..hmmm....old wive's tale....busted.
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--
http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org
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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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I, and several other people I know, have driven air cooled VW engines here
in Minnesota. I have never had an issue with temp preventing them from
starting. At -25F the trick is to apply LOTS of amperage to the cranking
and ignition systems. After a 5 min warm-up it's off to the freeway. These
engines were not preheated and were using factory recommended lubricants.
Just my experience.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
"Hope for the best,
but prepare for the worst."
do not archive
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retasker(at)optonline.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: Crossflow Subaru Engine |
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Here is an example of a stock auto engine that was run for something a
little more than a few seconds - in fact they ran two of them and they
both finished in fine shape.
The original Legacy speed record was set between January 2nd and 21st,
1989, with a Japanese-spec RS sedan at the Arizona Test Center outside
of Phoenix, Arizona. It broke the 100,000 km FIA World Land Endurance
Record by maintaining an average speed of 138.780 mph (223.345 km/h) for
447 hours, 44 minutes and 9.887 seconds, or 18 1/2 days. Pit stops were
made every two hours with a driver change and refueling, while tire
changes were made at 96 hour intervals, or every 13,400 miles driven.
And, yes, I am using a Subaru engine, the 2.5L version.
Dick Tasker
Kelly McMullen wrote:
| Quote: |
<kellym(at)aviating.com>
And few automotive engines run at 75% power for more than a few
seconds at a time. The only efficiency advantage you might see in an
auto engine is in the ignition timing, which is easily corrected in
aircraft engines with electronic ignition. There is no efficiency
difference between aircraft injection systems and automotive beyond
the closed loop oxygen sensor feedback, which won't live with leaded
fuel. So far, an intelligent pilot can do a better job managing
mixture than an electronic system.
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