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barryhancock
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285
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 Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 |
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Gang,
As one who receives a daily "digest" version of the list, I ask you to all
consider this guideline from Matt on responding to posts:
| Quote: |
Dear Yak Listers,
************************************************
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| Quote: | Yak-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the
Yak-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules
therein.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in"
the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
|
I have been on this list for 10 years and have made the plea to follow
this more than once, but don't do it for my sake. The *reason* Matt asks
us to do this, other than it being incredibly annoying and void of any
"netiquette", is that it wastes tremendous storage space which is a cost
to Matt. So, help us all out but snipping your response and not just
lazily hitting the reply button and including 35 messages worth of stuff
for us "digesters" to sift through. Thanks!
Oh, and Gill, I've included the below for your reference.  -
Cheers,
Barry
| Quote: |
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
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List members promoting their respective products or items for
sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
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_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com |
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SD737(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 |
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The Yak-52 could be called a Cessna 152 as far as stall characteristics. The thing is simple and gentle, but has the capability of performing aggressive/advanced aerobatics.
You say Flat Inverted Spin???? Oh no... "Mr. Bill" HELP ME!!! Any aircraft will enter a flat inverted spin if given the wrong inputs at the right time, but... the plane will pretty much come out of this uncomfortable maneuver on it's own if left alone.
Come on Ladies, The thing is a BASIC trainer period. Simple/honest/forgiving flight characteristics.
Guys get themselves into "situations" with any aircraft from basic trainers like Cessna 152's to high performance Lancair's to turbine aircraft.
CJ or Yak, they're both BASIC very SIMPLE aircraft to operate and if you think otherwise then fly the thing within YOUR limitations and give it the respect that YOU need to give it to operate the thing.
Plan your next getaway with AOL771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001">Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!
[quote][b]
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barryhancock
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 |
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I don't know how this ended up in this thread, but I have to respond.
The Yak-52 IS a straightforward aircraft, but it does have some unusual characteristics. Upright flat the stick is "pinned" in the corner and takes considerable force to get it out. A couple of very high time pilots have been killed in the -52 because they didn't understand the spin characteristics and/or recovery techniques.
I'm not trying to scare people, quite the contrary. It is a great aircraft for it's purpose and is very predictable once you are familiar with it's characteristics. BUT to say you go out and fly a -52 within your limits as the end of the discussion neglects getting into situations your unaccustomed to at an inopportune moment. At those times it's training, type specific training, that could save your life.
Go out and get full spin training in the aircraft. It will make you a more confident and capable pilot, and it's fun!
Barry (I sell CJ's, but have many hours in Yaks and think they're great too) Hancock
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_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com |
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buddairbum(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 |
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I have probably as much inside/outside flat spin experience as most and the
first time in the 52 52 surprised me with the higher than amount of force it
took to get the stick out of the corner. Nothing dangerous, once you know
it's there, but certainly "different." I was told it's centrifugal force
working on the counterweights. Is there any truth to that?
bd
On 11/4/08 7:17 PM, "barryhancock" <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
<bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com>
I don't know how this ended up in this thread, but I have to respond.
The Yak-52 IS a straightforward aircraft, but it does have some unusual
characteristics. Upright flat the stick is "pinned" in the corner and takes
considerable force to get it out. A couple of very high time pilots have
been killed in the -52 because they didn't understand the spin characteristics
and/or recovery techniques.
I'm not trying to scare people, quite the contrary. It is a great aircraft
for it's purpose and is very predictable once you are familiar with it's
characteristics. BUT to say you go out and fly a -52 within your limits as
the end of the discussion neglects getting into situations your unaccustomed
to at an inopportune moment. At those times it's training, type specific
training, that could save your life.
Go out and get full spin training in the aircraft. It will make you a more
confident and capable pilot, and it's fun!
Barry (I sell CJ's, but have many hours in Yaks and think they're great too)
Hancock
--------
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 12360#212360
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 |
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Here's an article that some may not have read concerning spins in the Yak 52. The last two sentences of the Introduction are of the utmost importance.
Dennis
[quote] ---
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 |
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This is very interesting. Is it possible to get the full text somehow, somewhere ? Willing to pay for it!
And if I read it well, there’s a strong argument against closing the aileron gaps in order to improve the roll rate ?
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: woensdag 5 november 2008 4:26
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08
Here's an article that some may not have read concerning spins in the Yak 52. The last two sentences of the Introduction are of the utmost importance.
Dennis
[quote]
----- Original Message -----
From: Budd Davisson (buddairbum(at)cox.net)
To: Yak List (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08
--> Yak-List message posted by: Budd Davisson <buddairbum(at)cox.net (buddairbum(at)cox.net)>
I have probably as much inside/outside flat spin experience as most and the
first time in the 52 52 surprised me with the higher than amount of force it
took to get the stick out of the corner. Nothing dangerous, once you know
it's there, but certainly "different." I was told it's centrifugal force
working on the counterweights. Is there any truth to that?
bd
On 11/4/08 7:17 PM, "barryhancock" <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com (bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com)> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "barryhancock"
> <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com (bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com)>
>
> I don't know how this ended up in this thread, but I have to respond.
>
> The Yak-52 IS a straightforward aircraft, but it does have some unusual
> characteristics. Upright flat the stick is "pinned" in the corner and takes
> considerable force to get it out. A couple of very high time pilots have
> been killed in the -52 because they didn't understand the spin characteristics
> and/or recovery techniques.
>
> I'm not trying to scare people, quite the contrary. It is a great aircraft
> for it's purpose and is very predictable once you are familiar with it's
> characteristics. BUT to say you go out and fly a -52 within your limits as
> the end of the discussion neglects getting into situations your unaccustomed
> to at an inopportune moment. At those times it's training, type specific
> training, that could save your life.
>
> Go out and get full spin training in the aircraft. It will make you a more
> confident and capable pilot, and it's fun!
>
> Barry (I sell CJ's, but have many hours in Yaks and think they're great too)
> Hancock
>
> --------
> Barry Hancock
> Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
> www.worldwidewarbirds.com
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212360#212360
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> nbsp; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual link Free href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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[b]
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nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:05 am Post subject: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 |
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I SERIOUSLY think you’re under-estimating the killing capabilities to the unwary of a Yak52 here….
Nigel Willson
Uk aerobatic display pilot
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of SD737(at)aol.com
Sent: 05 November 2008 00:09
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08
The Yak-52 could be called a Cessna 152 as far as stall characteristics. The thing is simple and gentle, but has the capability of performing aggressive/advanced aerobatics.
You say Flat Inverted Spin???? Oh no... "Mr. Bill" HELP ME!!! Any aircraft will enter a flat inverted spin if given the wrong inputs at the right time, but... the plane will pretty much come out of this uncomfortable maneuver on it's own if left alone.
Come on Ladies, The thing is a BASIC trainer period. Simple/honest/forgiving flight characteristics.
Guys get themselves into "situations" with any aircraft from basic trainers like Cessna 152's to high performance Lancair's to turbine aircraft.
CJ or Yak, they're both BASIC very SIMPLE aircraft to operate and if you think otherwise then fly the thing within YOUR limitations and give it the respect that YOU need to give it to operate the thing.
Plan your next getaway with AOL771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001">Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
01234567890123
[quote][b]
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:37 am Post subject: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 |
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For those that wish to see the entire article including the figures and tables referred to, see attached.
Dennis
[quote] ---
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:38 am Post subject: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 |
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Unwary and untrained.
Dennis
[quote] ---
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 |
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Great! Thanks, Dennis !
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: woensdag 5 november 2008 12:36
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08
For those that wish to see the entire article including the figures and tables referred to, see attached.
Dennis
[quote]
----- Original Message -----
From: Jan Mevis (jan.mevis(at)informavia.be)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 1:00 AM
Subject: RE: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08
This is very interesting. Is it possible to get the full text somehow, somewhere ? Willing to pay for it!
And if I read it well, there’s a strong argument against closing the aileron gaps in order to improve the roll rate ?
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: woensdag 5 november 2008 4:26
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08
Here's an article that some may not have read concerning spins in the Yak 52. The last two sentences of the Introduction are of the utmost importance.
Dennis
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: Budd Davisson (buddairbum(at)cox.net)
To: Yak List (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08
--> Yak-List message posted by: Budd Davisson <buddairbum(at)cox.net (buddairbum(at)cox.net)>
I have probably as much inside/outside flat spin experience as most and the
first time in the 52 52 surprised me with the higher than amount of force it
took to get the stick out of the corner. Nothing dangerous, once you know
it's there, but certainly "different." I was told it's centrifugal force
working on the counterweights. Is there any truth to that?
bd
On 11/4/08 7:17 PM, "barryhancock" <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com (bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com)> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "barryhancock"
> <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com (bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com)>
>
> I don't know how this ended up in this thread, but I have to respond.
>
> The Yak-52 IS a straightforward aircraft, but it does have some unusual
> characteristics. Upright flat the stick is "pinned" in the corner and takes
> considerable force to get it out. A couple of very high time pilots have
> been killed in the -52 because they didn't understand the spin characteristics
> and/or recovery techniques.
>
> I'm not trying to scare people, quite the contrary. It is a great aircraft
> for it's purpose and is very predictable once you are familiar with it's
> characteristics. BUT to say you go out and fly a -52 within your limits as
> the end of the discussion neglects getting into situations your unaccustomed
> to at an inopportune moment. At those times it's training, type specific
> training, that could save your life.
>
> Go out and get full spin training in the aircraft. It will make you a more
> confident and capable pilot, and it's fun!
>
> Barry (I sell CJ's, but have many hours in Yaks and think they're great too)
> Hancock
>
> --------
> Barry Hancock
> Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
> www.worldwidewarbirds.com
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212360#212360
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> nbsp; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual link Free href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Navigator Photoshare, and href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics========================<; via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com |
[b]
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Etienne Verhellen
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Belgium
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: Yak 52 Spin Training ... |
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Spinning in the Yak 52 ...
A few observations ... (but please do get proper type specific training in YOUR Yak 52) :
1. It doesn't hurt to use 2 hands on the stick to recover from a "good" flat
spin. The Russians do it. (And indeed centrifugal force on the
counterweight is probably part of the force required ... IMHO).
2. A great way to enter a good flat spin is a modified stall turn
(hammerhead). I mean, this is the easiest way to consistently enter
into an intentional flat spin during training. So I guess if you are going
to fly stall turns it is probably a good idea to ask an instructor to show
you what a flat spin entry looks like ... even if you do not intend to fly
them in the future.
3. Nobody mentioned "unloading" the stick : once the spin has been
flattened it can be further (!!) accelerated by unloading the elevator a
small amount. Are we having FUN yet ?
4. Recovery from this intentional flat spin would work something like that :
opposite rudder, stick back (if you have unloaded), stick to the other
side and then forward. Recovery will be more consistent than going
straight to the "final" position.
5. Recovery will be faster (and easier) WITH power ON ... if you know
what you are doing. To recover from intentional (flat) spinning the
correct control will always work. In the Yak-52, they will work better
with power on. The wrong inputs will not recover from a spin.
The wrong inputs with power on will make the lack of recovery even
more certain.
6. As for the Inverted accelerated and Inverted flat spins, I find them
quite hard to maintain because of the centrifugal force under negative
g's. And remember out-spin aileron in an inverted spin means moving
the aileron control to the same side to that which the rudder is applied.
7 . What about the cross-over spin : entering an inverted spin from a stall
in level upright flight ?
Competition spins ? One turn, 1 and 1/4, 1 and 1/2 ... (Exits must be
vertical).
Or going straight from a one turn and a half upright spin into an
inverted spin, a potentially disconcerting and dangerous situation ...
This "change-over" spin is maybe the cause of a few fatal accident in
the Pitts Special.
Etc ... etc ...
So to state the obvious one last time :
Emergency and planned spin recovery techniques must be taught in a TYPE specific manner with an Instructor experienced on TYPE.
Now, I must get my parachute checked ...
Cheers,
Etienne.
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_________________
Yak-50 Display Pilot - Airshows - Яковлев Як-50
Yak-52 training anywhere - FI(A) Aerobatic Instructor - Specialised Yak-52.
https://www.yakoteam.com/
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drc(at)wscare.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 |
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I agree with the 152 assessment - it is designed to be stable and will almost always recover if the pilot lets go and quits the control input for stall/spin.
The 52 will not recover like this in developed spins. The 52 is aerodynamically more unstable than the 152. It has to be flown out of the spin. And, once the spin develops in certain situations the mass of the fuel and the centrifugal force will not be overcome by the control inputs. This is worse in the 52W and 52TW which carry more fuel. This is why the 55 and the 52 have acro fuel limitations. This is also part of the reason why the Sukhoi has the fuel mass centrally located in the fuselage - to avoid the inertial problems inherent to the 52.
I have not had a chance to read Dennis's article but will tonight - I look forward to learning more about our planes.
The key as others have mentioned is to learn the characteristics that lead to problems, get training and practice stalls / spins, upright, inverted, flat, normal, accelerated and crossover. Then as pilot, the developed spin problems will be recognized and avoided. The kind of spins a few very good pilots have ridden to the ground.
Herb
On Nov 4, 2008, at 6:09 PM, SD737(at)aol.com (SD737(at)aol.com) wrote:
| Quote: | The Yak-52 could be called a Cessna 152 as far as stall characteristics. The thing is simple and gentle, but has the capability of performing aggressive/advanced aerobatics.
You say Flat Inverted Spin???? Oh no... "Mr. Bill" HELP ME!!! Any aircraft will enter a flat inverted spin if given the wrong inputs at the right time, but... the plane will pretty much come out of this uncomfortable maneuver on it's own if left alone.
Come on Ladies, The thing is a BASIC trainer period. Simple/honest/forgiving flight characteristics.
Guys get themselves into "situations" with any aircraft from basic trainers like Cessna 152's to high performance Lancair's to turbine aircraft.
CJ or Yak, they're both BASIC very SIMPLE aircraft to operate and if you think otherwise then fly the thing within YOUR limitations and give it the respect that YOU need to give it to operate the thing.
Plan your next getaway with AOL771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001">Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 |
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The article "Spins Unspun" that I posted was not mine, but belonged to the Yak Pilots Association and was published in the Warbird Flyer, 3rd Quarter of 2002. The original Warbird Flyer the article appeared in is attached for anyone who wishes to read it.
Dennis
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08 |
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Once again, thanks a lot !
Jan
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: woensdag 5 november 2008 21:30
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08
The article "Spins Unspun" that I posted was not mine, but belonged to the Yak Pilots Association and was published in the Warbird Flyer, 3rd Quarter of 2002. The original Warbird Flyer the article appeared in is attached for anyone who wishes to read it.
Dennis
[quote]
----- Original Message -----
From: Herb Coussons (drc(at)wscare.com)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Yak-List Digest: 35 Msgs - 11/03/08
I agree with the 152 assessment - it is designed to be stable and will almost always recover if the pilot lets go and quits the control input for stall/spin.
The 52 will not recover like this in developed spins. The 52 is aerodynamically more unstable than the 152. It has to be flown out of the spin. And, once the spin develops in certain situations the mass of the fuel and the centrifugal force will not be overcome by the control inputs. This is worse in the 52W and 52TW which carry more fuel. This is why the 55 and the 52 have acro fuel limitations. This is also part of the reason why the Sukhoi has the fuel mass centrally located in the fuselage - to avoid the inertial problems inherent to the 52.
I have not had a chance to read Dennis's article but will tonight - I look forward to learning more about our planes.
The key as others have mentioned is to learn the characteristics that lead to problems, get training and practice stalls / spins, upright, inverted, flat, normal, accelerated and crossover. Then as pilot, the developed spin problems will be recognized and avoided. The kind of spins a few very good pilots have ridden to the ground.
Herb
On Nov 4, 2008, at 6:09 PM, SD737(at)aol.com (SD737(at)aol.com) wrote:
The Yak-52 could be called a Cessna 152 as far as stall characteristics. The thing is simple and gentle, but has the capability of performing aggressive/advanced aerobatics.
You say Flat Inverted Spin???? Oh no... "Mr. Bill" HELP ME!!! Any aircraft will enter a flat inverted spin if given the wrong inputs at the right time, but... the plane will pretty much come out of this uncomfortable maneuver on it's own if left alone.
Come on Ladies, The thing is a BASIC trainer period. Simple/honest/forgiving flight characteristics.
Guys get themselves into "situations" with any aircraft from basic trainers like Cessna 152's to high performance Lancair's to turbine aircraft.
CJ or Yak, they're both BASIC very SIMPLE aircraft to operate and if you think otherwise then fly the thing within YOUR limitations and give it the respect that YOU need to give it to operate the thing.
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