 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Knicholas2(at)aol.com
Guest
|
 Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
 |
|
I am about to replace the second Rapco dry vacuum pump in 300 hours flight time. Is there another brand that people have had better luck with? Tempest? AAA? Sigma-Tek?
Thanks!
Kim Nicholas
RV9A
Auburn, WA
Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Vanremog(at)aol.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:37 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
If you really want to keep your vacuum gyros and not upgrade to electric, then I think that the best bet today is the Sigma-Tek piston pump.
N1GV (RV-6A, Flying 908hrs, O-360-A1A, C/S, Silicon Valley)
In a message dated 12/12/2008 9:20:51 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, Knicholas2(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | I am about to replace the second Rapco dry vacuum pump in 300 hours flight time. Is there another brand that people have had better luck with? Tempest? AAA? Sigma-Tek?
|
Make your life easier with all your friends, n=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now.
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:38 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
What most forget is that when a vacuum pump lets go, it will blow dirt and debris upstream of the pump, fowling the hose and regulator. It's important to flush all the hoses and replace all the filter elements after a pump failure. Each vacuum instrument usually has a filter behind its inlet that should be cleaned also. Failure to clean the system will result in the new pumps first breath of air being full of dirt and soot, not good for the long life of the new pump.
If you want a vacuum pump that will last to TBO of your engine, take a look at the wet vacuum pump.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
[quote]
--
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gary.A.Sobek
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 217
Location: SoCAL USA
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
Agree. The Sigma-Tek I have has been going strong for the last 1 C200 hours.
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell C
2 C170+ Flying Hours So. CA C USA
From: Vanremog(at)aol.com
Date: Sat C 13 Dec 2008 00:36:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Which is a good vacuum pump?
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
If you really want to keep your vacuum gyros and not upgrade to electric C then I think that the best bet today is the Sigma-Tek piston pump.
N1GV (RV-6A C Flying 908hrs C O-360-A1A C C/S C Silicon Valley)
In a message dated 12/12/2008 9:20:51 P.M. Pacific Standard Time C Knicholas2(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | I am about to replace the second Rapco dry vacuum pump in 300 hours flight time. Is there another brand that people have had better luck with? Tempest? AAA? Sigma-Tek?
|
Make your life easier with all your friends C n=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010">Try it now.
| Quote: | | <.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List_ |
Send e-mail anywhere. No map C no compass. Get your Hotmail® account now. [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:47 am Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
Excellent reminder. Also, if that Rapco only had 300 hours on it, I hope you kept the warranty card, as if I recall correctly they are warranted for 1000. Also, if you are getting any oil around the pump it can cause drag that will break the shear coupling.
Of the standard design, Tempest and Rapco are the best made. There are fit issues with the oil separator necessary for wet pumps, and fit issues with the Sigmatek piston pump. If you have the space to install them correctly, I'm sure they are fine, but many aircraft don't have the room.
Bruce Gray wrote: [quote] Message What most forget is that when a vacuum pump lets go, it will blow dirt and debris upstream of the pump, fowling the hose and regulator. It's important to flush all the hoses and replace all the filter elements after a pump failure. Each vacuum instrument usually has a filter behind its inlet that should be cleaned also. Failure to clean the system will result in the new pumps first breath of air being full of dirt and soot, not good for the long life of the new pump.
If you want a vacuum pump that will last to TBO of your engine, take a look at the wet vacuum pump.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
[quote] --
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rv9jim(at)juno.com
Guest
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:02 am Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
Dump the pump. Use solid-state gyros and a backup alternator!
Ralph Finch
Davis, CA
[quote] From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Knicholas2(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 9:18 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Which is a good vacuum pump?
I am about to replace the second Rapco dry vacuum pump in 300 hours flight time. Is there another brand that people have had better luck with? Tempest? AAA? Sigma-Tek?
Thanks!
Kim Nicholas
RV9A
Auburn, WA
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
Lets see here...spend multiple thousands of dollars on solid state stuff and more thousands on EFIS to replace a $200 pump and $600 gyro. Then spend another grand for separate alternator, battery and essential bus to have totally separate systems as required for IFR. Always easy to spend other's money. 
Ralph Finch wrote: [quote] Dump the pump. Use solid-state gyros and a backup alternator!
Ralph Finch
Davis, CA
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
Let's see...fly around with unreliable vacuum pumps with a history of repeated failures...or use modern equipment to make flying easier and safer. No brainer to me! Always easy to spend my money on the better choice 
RF
[quote] From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:45 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Which is a good vacuum pump?
Lets see here...spend multiple thousands of dollars on solid state stuff and more thousands on EFIS to replace a $200 pump and $600 gyro. Then spend another grand for separate alternator, battery and essential bus to have totally separate systems as required for IFR. Always easy to spend other's money.
Ralph Finch wrote: | Quote: | Dump the pump. Use solid-state gyros and a backup alternator!
Ralph Finch
Davis, CA
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chuck(at)chuckdirect.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
A little snippy there Finch. Actually I've been flying for forty years and have had only one vac pump failure and that was in VFR conditions which is what I'm rated for. Nothing unsafe there. Believe it or not, there's actually some of us out here who don't have unlimited funds, as apparently you do, who are grateful to be able to just build and fly a machine with older technology. But if I made a habit of bungling into IFR I'd probably make some changes in my system, but I don't, so I agree with Kelly; why spend a bunch of money on a system I don't need? Frankly, I'd rather spend my limited flying funds on avgas rather than an expensive system that I don't need...or want.
Chuck
RV9A 250 hours (sold)
RV10 two months to completion
From: Ralph Finch (rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us)
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 6:53 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Which is a good vacuum pump?
Let's see...fly around with unreliable vacuum pumps with a history of repeated failures...or use modern equipment to make flying easier and safer. No brainer to me! Always easy to spend my money on the better choice
RF
[quote] From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:45 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Which is a good vacuum pump?
Lets see here...spend multiple thousands of dollars on solid state stuff and more thousands on EFIS to replace a $200 pump and $600 gyro. Then spend another grand for separate alternator, battery and essential bus to have totally separate systems as required for IFR. Always easy to spend other's money.
Ralph Finch wrote: | Quote: | Dump the pump. Use solid-state gyros and a backup alternator!
Ralph Finch
Davis, CA
|
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
I flew IFR for 20 years with two vacuum gyros, powered by venturis. They make a vacuum pump look extremely reliable. These days it is easy to have a setup with only one vacuum gyro and two electric for not much more money. Losing only one gyro in IMC shouldn't cause a competent pilot to even break a sweat. Certainly less of an issue than losing a glass panel in IMC.
Chuck Weyant wrote: [quote] A little snippy there Finch. Actually I've been flying for forty years and have had only one vac pump failure and that was in VFR conditions which is what I'm rated for. Nothing unsafe there. Believe it or not, there's actually some of us out here who don't have unlimited funds, as apparently you do, who are grateful to be able to just build and fly a machine with older technology. But if I made a habit of bungling into IFR I'd probably make some changes in my system, but I don't, so I agree with Kelly; why spend a bunch of money on a system I don't need? Frankly, I'd rather spend my limited flying funds on avgas rather than an expensive system that I don't need...or want.
Chuck
RV9A 250 hours (sold)
RV10 two months to completion
From: Ralph Finch (rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us)
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 6:53 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Which is a good vacuum pump?
Let's see...fly around with unreliable vacuum pumps with a history of repeated failures...or use modern equipment to make flying easier and safer. No brainer to me! Always easy to spend my money on the better choice
RF
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mkaratsonyi(at)hotmail.co
Guest
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
Michael Karatsonyi wrote:
| Quote: | i have just started my empenage and wanted to know what everyone is
using for primer?
I'm not using primers at all. Strictly rimfire.
|
Linn
do not archive
| Quote: |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: chuck(at)chuckdirect.com
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Which is a good vacuum pump?
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:50:01 -0800
A little snippy there Finch. Actually I've been flying for forty
years and have had only one vac pump failure and that was in VFR
conditions which is what I'm rated for. Nothing unsafe there.
Believe it or not, there's actually some of us out here who don't have
unlimited funds, as apparently you do, who are grateful to be able to
just build and fly a machine with older technology. But if I made a
habit of bungling into IFR I'd probably make some changes in my
system, but I don't, so I agree with Kelly; why spend a bunch of money
on a system I don't need? Frankly, I'd rather spend my limited flying
funds on avgas rather than an expensive system that I don't need...or
want.
Chuck
RV9A 250 hours (sold)
RV10 two months to completion
F*rom:* Ralph Finch
*Sent:* Saturday, December 13, 2008 6:53 PM
*To:* rv-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* RE: Which is a good vacuum pump?
Let's see...fly around with unreliable vacuum pumps with a history of
repeated failures...or use modern equipment to make flying easier and
safer. No brainer to me! Always easy to spend my money on the better
choice
RF
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Kelly
McMullen
*Sent:* Saturday, December 13, 2008 4:45 PM
*To:* rv-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: Which is a good vacuum pump?
Lets see here...spend multiple thousands of dollars on solid state
stuff and more thousands on EFIS to replace a $200 pump and $600
gyro. Then spend another grand for separate alternator, battery
and essential bus to have totally separate systems as required for
IFR. Always easy to spend other's money.
Ralph Finch wrote:
Dump the pump. Use solid-state gyros and a backup alternator!
Ralph Finch
Davis, CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
*Knicholas2(at)aol.com
*Sent:* Friday, December 12, 2008 9:18 PM
*To:* rv-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Which is a good vacuum pump?
I am about to replace the second Rapco dry vacuum pump in
300 hours flight time. Is there another brand that people
have had better luck with? Tempest? AAA? Sigma-Tek?
Thanks!
Kim Nicholas
RV9A
Auburn, WA
*
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
*
*
*
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suspicious message? There’s an alert for that. Get your Hotmail®
account now.
<http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad2_122008>
*
*
|
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pbesing(at)yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
"to have totally separate systems as required for IFR"
You do not need separate systems for IFR.
Furthermore, a dynon is about the same cost as an attitude indicator, DG, turn coordinator, vacuum pump, regulator, filter, hoses, etc.
Yes, vacuum works, and is reasonably reliable...but it's time to move on. I grew up flying steam, and have no problem with a six pack of instruments. But, for building a new aircraft, it really makes no sense going vacuum considering the prices for an experimental EFIS. Honestly, I think vacuum is MORE complex and in the end MORE expensive for overhauls. (Mine are already in need of overhaul due to very mild aerobatics)
Paul Besing
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:44:58 PM
Subject: Re: Which is a good vacuum pump?
Lets see here...spend multiple thousands of dollars on solid state stuff and more thousands on EFIS to replace a $200 pump and $600 gyro. Then spend another grand for separate alternator, battery and essential bus to have totally separate systems as required for IFR. Always easy to spend other's money.
Ralph Finch wrote: [quote] Dump the pump. Use solid-state gyros and a backup alternator!
Ralph Finch
Davis, CA
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
Yes, you can choose to operate without independent systems in an experimental aircraft. It is your hide and your unsuspecting passengers. It is illegal in certificated aircraft, for very good reasons. See Part 23.1309. Most builders aspire to build aircraft safer than certified spam cans.
A Dynon is not truly independent, as it depends on the electrical buss. It's backup battery may or may not be satisfactory. Electrical failures occur at least as often as vacuum failures.
If an EFIS fails and you don't have some steam gauges, you have no backup, so you are going to need at least an attitude gyro and airspeed and altimeter anyway. So the cost comparison is really vacuum pump and accessories and attitude gyro, vs a second, totally independent separately powered EFIS.
Or you can go the least expensive way and get what you list below, no EFIS and buy one or two of the gyros as electric and remaining vacuum. Less than $1 per flight hour to budget vacuum pump replacement every 500 hours. You pays your money and makes your choices. Just don't represent EFIS from anyone as same cost. It isn't.
Paul Besing wrote: [quote] "to have totally separate systems as required for IFR"
You do not need separate systems for IFR.
Furthermore, a dynon is about the same cost as an attitude indicator, DG, turn coordinator, vacuum pump, regulator, filter, hoses, etc.
Yes, vacuum works, and is reasonably reliable...but it's time to move on. I grew up flying steam, and have no problem with a six pack of instruments. But, for building a new aircraft, it really makes no sense going vacuum considering the prices for an experimental EFIS. Honestly, I think vacuum is MORE complex and in the end MORE expensive for overhauls. (Mine are already in need of overhaul due to very mild aerobatics)
Paul Besing
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:44:58 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Which is a good vacuum pump?
Lets see here...spend multiple thousands of dollars on solid state stuff and more thousands on EFIS to replace a $200 pump and $600 gyro. Then spend another grand for separate alternator, battery and essential bus to have totally separate systems as required for IFR. Always easy to spend other's money.
Ralph Finch wrote: | Quote: | Dump the pump. Use solid-state gyros and a backup alternator!
Ralph Finch
Davis, CA
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
Kelly McMullen wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, you can choose to operate without independent systems in an
experimental aircraft. It is your hide and your unsuspecting
passengers. It is illegal in certificated aircraft, for very good
reasons. See Part 23.1309. Most builders aspire to build aircraft
safer than certified spam cans.
Ok, I'm a little bit dense, but I read that subsection and cannot find
|
anywhere that it says you need *redundant* systems. About the only
thing in a part 23 aircraft that's normally redundant is a radio, and
sometimes a VOR, neither which are required for flight. As for IFR,
you're only required (after all the normal stuff) to have equipment
compatible with the approach at the destination. So, I guess you have
two transponders? Two *Certified* GPS's ...... ?
Linn
do not archive.
| Quote: | A Dynon is not truly independent, as it depends on the electrical
buss. It's backup battery may or may not be satisfactory. Electrical
failures occur at least as often as vacuum failures.
I'd love to see the data for that one. I'm only a blip in the data
|
field, but I've never had an electrical failure .... in flight .... but
have had three vacuum pump failures ..... but I do fly a lot.
| Quote: | If an EFIS fails and you don't have some steam gauges, you have no
backup, so you are going to need at least an attitude gyro and
airspeed and altimeter anyway. So the cost comparison is really vacuum
pump and accessories and attitude gyro, vs a second, totally
independent separately powered EFIS.
Two EFIS installations with separate backup battery is still cheaper
|
than one EFIS and steam guages. Or you're a poor shopper. Or you're
buying some cheap steam guages. Like you say belowY, "you pays your
money and makes your choices" or "takes your chances" as the saying
really is. Almost all failures of electrical accessories occur early on
(infant failures) or very late .... long after their 'useful life' where
they're superseded by more modern equipment. No data, just a long-time
working participant in the industry. For what it's worth.
| Quote: | Or you can go the least expensive way and get what you list below, no
EFIS and buy one or two of the gyros as electric and remaining vacuum.
Less than $1 per flight hour to budget vacuum pump replacement every
500 hours. You pays your money and makes your choices. Just don't
represent EFIS from anyone as same cost. It isn't.
Let's just agree to disagree. You have an opinion .... and you probably
|
know what they say about them!
I just haven't seen anything to justify your (in my mind) rather
arrogant position.
Linn
do not archive
| Quote: |
Paul Besing wrote:
> "to have totally separate systems as required for IFR"
>
> You do not need separate systems for IFR.
>
> Furthermore, a dynon is about the same cost as an attitude indicator,
> DG, turn coordinator, vacuum pump, regulator, filter, hoses, etc.
>
> Yes, vacuum works, and is reasonably reliable...but it's time to move
> on. I grew up flying steam, and have no problem with a six pack of
> instruments. But, for building a new aircraft, it really makes no
> sense going vacuum considering the prices for an experimental EFIS.
> Honestly, I think vacuum is MORE complex and in the end MORE
> expensive for overhauls. (Mine are already in need of overhaul due
> to very mild aerobatics)
>
> Paul Besing
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
> *To:* rv-list(at)matronics.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:44:58 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Which is a good vacuum pump?
>
> Lets see here...spend multiple thousands of dollars on solid state
> stuff and more thousands on EFIS to replace a $200 pump and $600
> gyro. Then spend another grand for separate alternator, battery and
> essential bus to have totally separate systems as required for IFR.
> Always easy to spend other's money.
>
> Ralph Finch wrote:
>> Dump the pump. Use solid-state gyros and a backup alternator!
>>
>> Ralph Finch
>> Davis, CA
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>> *Knicholas2(at)aol.com
>> *Sent:* Friday, December 12, 2008 9:18 PM
>> *To:* rv-list(at)matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Which is a good vacuum pump?
>>
>> I am about to replace the second Rapco dry vacuum pump in 300
>> hours flight time. Is there another brand that people have had
>> better luck with? Tempest? AAA? Sigma-Tek?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Kim Nicholas
>> RV9A
>> Auburn, WA
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> *
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> *
*
*
|
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pbesing(at)yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
In 15 years of flying, over 2000 hours, and flying 20,000 hour freight airplanes with things breaking all the time, I've never once had a total electrical failure..and trust me..the garbage I was flying, if any rats nest like was in the airplanes I flew will work, a properly crafted experimental electrical system will not fail. Build it right, and it will last indefinitely. Alternator failure, ok, but the chances in IMC, and having to stay IMC longer than an hour for the battery backup, then you shouldn't be flying anyway. RV's are fine for flying light IMC, but if there is no VFR within an hour or two in an RV, there is some SERIOUS weather in your area. Declare emergency, get the nearest approach, and done. Again, the chances are so slim, I would have no problem in trusting a dynon with a backup battery.
Second, have a trio autopilot, coupled to a panel mounted handheld, and you will have all the IFR capability you need in an emergency. I've tested this. Flew an ILS approach, on autopilot, with no attitude indicator, in IMC. Just kicked off the autopilot when I was out of the clouds.
My small panel RV-4 has plenty of reduntantcy. Vacuum gyros go, I still have autopilot coupled to Garmin 396, and an electric turn coordinator. Build the electrical system right, and you have no issues if your EFIS fails. But again, how many Dynon or similar EFIS just quits working? Short of an electrical problem that fries the thing, I really doubt one will just quick working on it's own without poor wiring being the culprit.
If I were to keep my airplane for a long time (it's for sale now), I would put in a dynon, and fly IFR all day without any concerns.
YMMV.
Paul Besing
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 5:31:30 PM
Subject: Re: Which is a good vacuum pump?
Yes, you can choose to operate without independent systems in an experimental aircraft. It is your hide and your unsuspecting passengers. It is illegal in certificated aircraft, for very good reasons. See Part 23.1309. Most builders aspire to build aircraft safer than certified spam cans.
A Dynon is not truly independent, as it depends on the electrical buss. It's backup battery may or may not be satisfactory. Electrical failures occur at least as often as vacuum failures.
If an EFIS fails and you don't have some steam gauges, you have no backup, so you are going to need at least an attitude gyro and airspeed and altimeter anyway. So the cost comparison is really vacuum pump and accessories and attitude gyro, vs a second, totally independent separately powered EFIS.
Or you can go the least expensive way and get what you list below, no EFIS and buy one or two of the gyros as electric and remaining vacuum. Less than $1 per flight hour to budget vacuum pump replacement every 500 hours. You pays your money and makes your choices. Just don't represent EFIS from anyone as same cost. It isn't.
Paul Besing wrote: [quote] "to have totally separate systems as required for IFR"
You do not need separate systems for IFR.
Furthermore, a dynon is about the same cost as an attitude indicator, DG, turn coordinator, vacuum pump, regulator, filter, hoses, etc.
Yes, vacuum works, and is reasonably reliable...but it's time to move on. I grew up flying steam, and have no problem with a six pack of instruments. But, for building a new aircraft, it really makes no sense going vacuum considering the prices for an experimental EFIS. Honestly, I think vacuum is MORE complex and in the end MORE expensive for overhauls. (Mine are already in need of overhaul due to very mild aerobatics)
Paul Besing
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> (kellym(at)aviating.com)
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:44:58 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Which is a good vacuum pump?
Lets see here...spend multiple thousands of dollars on solid state stuff and more thousands on EFIS to replace a $200 pump and $600 gyro. Then spend another grand for separate alternator, battery and essential bus to have totally separate systems as required for IFR. Always easy to spend other's money.
Ralph Finch wrote: | Quote: | Dump the pump. Use solid-state gyros and a backup alternator!
Ralph Finch
Davis, CA
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
It doesn't take a total failure. All you need is one little component
to let out some electrical smoke in the cockpit while you are on the
gauges and you will be faced with no electrics without risk of
additional fire. Argue all you want, or just make your choice. Just
don't lead others blindly down the same risky path. I've seen too many
electrical failures in 30+ years of flying and wrenching on planes to
totally rely on electrics. A number of Beechcraft are facing an AD right
now to replace most of their circuit breakers that on rare occasion leak
smoke. So there goes your "will not fail" argument.
KM
A&P/IA
Paul Besing wrote:
| Quote: | In 15 years of flying, over 2000 hours, and flying 20,000 hour freight
airplanes with things breaking all the time, I've never once had a
total electrical failure..and trust me..the garbage I was flying, if
any rats nest like was in the airplanes I flew will work, a properly
crafted experimental electrical system will not fail. *
*
*=======
*
|
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
Sorry folks, but I'm starting to enjoy this!
Kelly McMullen wrote:
| Quote: |
It doesn't take a total failure. All you need is one little component
to let out some electrical smoke in the cockpit while you are on the
gauges and you will be faced with no electrics without risk of
additional fire.
Actually, once the magic smoke gets loose, the only thing you lose is
|
that little box.
| Quote: | Argue all you want, or just make your choice. Just don't lead others
blindly down the same risky path. I've seen too many electrical
failures in 30+ years of flying and wrenching on planes to totally
rely on electrics.
You may be a pretty good wrench, but I'm getting the feeling you don't
|
know squat about "electrics".
| Quote: | A number of Beechcraft are facing an AD right now to replace most of
their circuit breakers that on rare occasion leak smoke. So there goes
your "will not fail" argument.
Nobody said 'nothing will fail' ..... what they did say is that they
|
have an 'alternate' to go to if a failure occurs. It's unfortunate, but
the one component in the airplane that seems to fail more often than any
other ...... is the pilot. I think there's more to the Beech AD than
meets the eye ..... not knowing for sure, but I have the feeling there's
a design problem in the breaker, and that Beech fed all the radios from
one breaker. Older airplanes did that. If it was only a rare occasion,
I don't think there would be an AD otherwise.
Linn
pilot & airplane builder
do not archive
| Quote: | KM
A&P/IA
Paul Besing wrote:
> In 15 years of flying, over 2000 hours, and flying 20,000 hour
> freight airplanes with things breaking all the time, I've never once
> had a total electrical failure..and trust me..the garbage I was
> flying, if any rats nest like was in the airplanes I flew will work,
> a properly crafted experimental electrical system will not fail. *
> *
> *=======
> *
|
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: Which is a good vacuum pump? |
|
|
While the electrical system might have some issues, the real issue with low
cost EFIS systems are software bugs. Redunancy can save your life.
As told by,
--> <mike.stewart(at)us.ibm.com>
As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl
vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One
said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis screen
in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy. Disorientation
set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You cant imagine the
immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not agreeing in a big way.
Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA wins, and thats what I flew to
the runway. It resulted in an emergency firmware update the following day by
GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not like a GPS approach with no assigned runway
in the database. Was a software bug. Would have been easier if the screen
had just gone blank, but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked up
and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but doable.
It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably
saved my butt.
Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in many
unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules attitudes
every time.
Mike
-
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
--
| | - The Matronics RV-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
