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582 fuel pump

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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: 582 fuel pump

Kitfoxers, Awhile back someone posted a note to  make sure the vent hole on the fuel pump was down when you mounted the pump. I  often feel like I am going blind, and maybe I am. I can't find a vent  hole. Anybody out there that can tell me where the vent hole on that  Mikuni pump is supposed to be?

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

   [quote][b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: 582 fuel pump

At 04:16 PM 12/29/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Kitfoxers, Awhile back someone posted a note to make sure the vent hole on the fuel pump was down when you mounted the pump. I often feel like I am going blind, and maybe I am. I can't find a vent hole. Anybody out there that can tell me where the vent hole on that Mikuni pump is supposed to be? 	


 Pat,

         Personally I think it should be on the bottom of the casting, since I mount mine vertically. However it's actually in the brass elbow where the pulse line attaches. This means the pump is supposed to be mounted flat, with the logo up. Who does that? Some day I'll mic the existing hole, replace the elbow, and drill a new one the same size in the casting. Right now I suspect my pulse chamber is constantly 1/2 full of fuel/oil/whatever.



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade

 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: Re: 582 fuel pump

 	  Quote: 	
		  Kitfoxers, Awhile back someone posted a note to make sure the vent hole on the fuel pump was down when you mounted the pump. I often feel like I am going blind, and maybe I am. I can't find a vent hole. Anybody out there that can tell me where the vent hole on that Mikuni pump is supposed to be? 



Pat Reilly 	




Pat, attached are a couple pulse pump pictures.  One with a brass pulse line fitting.  The tiny vent hole is in the center of the square brass fitting.  



The other is mounted horizontally on my Kitfox motor mount.  The pulse line fitting is part of the pump casting.  The hole is in the same place in the fitting.



The one with the brass fitting is a genuine Rotax part, I think.  It came with my engine.  I had it mounted on the fire wall with a 22 inch pulse line.  It pumped fine but leaked oil out the vent hole.  I thought the pump was faulty.



I purchased the cast fitting pump from CPS.  It did the same thing.  I moved the mount closer to the engine pulse port as shown in the picture with a six inch pulse line and the leaking stopped.



The first pump that I received from CPS did not have the vent hole.  He said they drill the holes themselves and that one must have been missed.



The aircraft engine version of the Mukunie pulse pumps are the only ones that have the vent hole.  Pumps for snowmobiles etc. do not.  Some of those have found their way onto aircraft.

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_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: 582 fuel pump

Tom C Thank you very much for the photos. My brass fitting has the vent hole in it. That is a very small hole. I guess it doesn't matter how the pump is oriented on the firewall C the hole is dead center no matter how you rotate the pump. Why would there be an oil leak with a longer vacumn line?

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: 582 fuel pump

 From: nahsikhs(at)elltel.net

 Date: Tue C 30 Dec 2008 06:48:00 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>

 

 

 > Kitfoxers C Awhile back someone posted a note to make sure the vent hole on the fuel pump was down when you mounted the pump. I often feel like I am going blind C and maybe I am. I can't find a vent hole. Anybody out there that can tell me where the vent hole on that Mikuni pump is supposed to be? 

 > 

 > Pat Reilly 

 

 

 Pat C attached are a couple pulse pump pictures. One with a brass pulse line fitting. The tiny vent hole is in the center of the square brass fitting. 

 

 The other is mounted horizontally on my Kitfox motor mount. The pulse line fitting is part of the pump casting. The hole is in the same place in the fitting.

 

 The one with the brass fitting is a genuine Rotax part C I think. It came with my engine. I had it mounted on the fire wall with a 22 inch pulse line. It pumped fine but leaked oil out the vent hole. I thought the pump was faulty.

 

 I purchased the cast fitting pump from CPS. It did the same thing. I moved the mount closer to the engine pulse port as shown in the picture with a six inch pulse line and the leaking stopped.

 

 The first pump that I received from CPS did not have the vent hole. He said they drill the holes themselves and that one must have been missed.

 

 The aircraft engine version of the Mukunie pulse pumps are the only ones that have the vent hole. Pumps for snowmobiles etc. do not. Some of those have found their way onto aircraft.

 

 --------

 Tom Jones

 Classic IV

 503 Rotax C 72 inch Two blade Warp

 Ellensburg C WA

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221782#221782

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/pulse_pump_brass_144.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/pulse_pump==================

 

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: 582 fuel pump

Guy C Thanks for the info. I'm mounting mine on the firewall also. Tom Jones sent pictures C I have a vent hole in the brass fitting same as his. Man that hole is small.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL

   

 Date: Mon C 29 Dec 2008 18:37:05 -0800

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

From: bnn(at)nethere.com

Subject: Re: 582 fuel pump



At 04:16 PM 12/29/2008 C you wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Kitfoxers C Awhile back someone posted a note to make sure the vent hole on the fuel pump was down when you mounted the pump. I often feel like I am going blind C and maybe I am. I can't find a vent hole. Anybody out there that can tell me where the vent hole on that Mikuni pump is supposed to be? 	


Pat C

        Personally I think it should be on the bottom of the casting C since I mount mine vertically. However it's actually in the brass elbow where the pulse line attaches. This means the pump is supposed to be mounted flat C with the logo up. Who does that? Some day I'll mic the existing hole C replace the elbow C and drill a new one the same size in the casting. Right now I suspect my pulse chamber is constantly 1/2 full of fuel/oil/whatever.



 Guy Buchanan

San Diego C CA

K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade

100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar [quote]



ww.matronics.com/contribution

 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

ronics.com
	


[b]

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: 582 fuel pump

 	  Quote: 	
		  Why would there be an oil leak with a longer vacumn line? 	




Thats a good question.  I asked a mechanic at CPS but he deflected that question.  I have a theory why.  The longer pulse line allows for the larger amount of air in that line to compress too easily.  This allows fuel to work its way through the line.

Another Kitfox owner had the same problem with a 503 that he cured with a shorter pulse line so it is confirmed in my mind that the too long pulse line is one thing that can cause the problem of fuel working its way into the pump.  Since I installed the shorter pulse line the pump has not leaked one drop in about 55 hours flight time.  My original pump instillation with the 22 inch line was per the Skystar Builder's manual and  sloped up hill all the way to the pump.



The Rotax directive for the fuel pump "Weep hole" in aircraft installations says the hole is to prevent a hydraulic lock in the pump in a case where the owner installs the pump incorrectly.  here's a link to a CPS maintenance article that discusses the weep hole.

http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part41.pdf



I would say the long pulse line was an incorrect installation and the weep hole may have saved my bacon.  I flew about 10 hours with the original installation.  I fastened a catch cup under the pump and it was catching about one to two ounces per hour.



By the way, the pulse port on a 503 is under the front cylinder, thus my long pulse line with the pump mount on the fire wall.  The 582 pulse port is under the rear cylinder so it is easier to find a mounting location with a shorter pulse line, I think.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

wingman

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 18

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: 582 fuel pump

I think that if one would use a soft fuel line as a pulse line, the tube would collapse and produce less energy to the membranes of the fuel pump.

I suggest that great care is taken when installing a pulse line.

To ensure that it will handle the vacuum pressure produced by the engine.

_________________
Kitfox IV 1200
Rotax 912 ULS
on full lotus floats

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: 582 fuel pump

I'm using 1/4" reinforced rubber gas line. It is pretty stiff stuff. That is what the previous owner had on the engine. What line is recommended C and is there a maximum length? 

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: 582 fuel pump

 From: wingman5507(at)gmail.com

 Date: Tue C 30 Dec 2008 16:19:34 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingman" <wingman5507(at)gmail.com>

 

 I think that if one would use a soft fuel line as a pulse line C the tube would collapse and produce less energy to the membranes of the fuel pump.

 I suggest that great care is taken when installing a pulse line.

 To ensure that it will handle the vacuum pressure produced by the engine.

 

 --------

 Kitfox IV 1200

 Rotax 912 ULS

 Rigging full lotus floats at the moment

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221842#221842

 

 

 

 

&g========================> 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 


	


  [quote][b]

wingman

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 18

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: Re: 582 fuel pump

I think some of the rotax mechanics on the forum could answer this better.

But it is obvious that the longer the line is, the stiffer it must be.

The best thing is to keep it as short as possible with a hose dedicated to withstand internal negative pressures.

I am sure your local hose supplier would be able to recommend you a good soultion.

_________________
Kitfox IV 1200
Rotax 912 ULS
on full lotus floats

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: 582 fuel pump

 	  Code: 	
		  I'm using 1/4" reinforced rubber gas line. It is pretty stiff stuff. That is what the previous owner had on the engine.ï¿½What line is recommended C and is there a maximum length? 

ï¿½ 

Pat Reilly 

Mod 3 582 Rebuild 	




Pat, the Rotax installation manual says the fuel pump pulse line should be no longer than 20 inches.  As you know from my previous post, I had serious fuel pump weeping problems with a 22 inch pulse line.  My opinion is: try to keep the line shorter than 12 inches.



I use the "Pulse line from aircraft spruce.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/pulseline.php



Fuel system is in section 15 in the Rotax installation manual.

http://www.rotax-owner.com/manuals/d00287.pdf

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:16 am Post subject: 582 fuel pump

What you're using will probably work fine.  I read somewhere that it should 

be kept to 12" or less, if possible and it's inadvisable to use any sort of 

soft line, like polyurethane as it will flex (in/out) with the piston pulses 

and can inhibit the pumping action of the diaphragm.  My suggestion would be 

to use fuel injection line.  That stuff is built to handle high pressure and 

won't flex at all.  It's about $5 a foot, but worth it for something like 

this.  Once it's on there, it should last the life of the engine.

Happy 2009 everybody.



Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: 582 fuel pump

Deke C Tom C Guy C Noel and all other contributors C Thanks for the info. The fuel pump mounting location requires about 20" of hose. I am going to use hard tube to shorten the run. Hose requires me to loop around 180 degrees. I don't think I can twist the square brass inlet port to allow access from the other side. It doesn't look like it is threaded. It appears to be cast in place in the aluminum body of the pump. Hard tube tight bends should allow me to keep the run under 12". Deke C CPS catalog says keep the run under 12". Now here is another question. I want to rebuild the pump. The rebuild kits I see are for the Mikuni pump with the straight access port tubes. Are those two pumps identical inside C and use the same rebuild kit? I have the bent tube pump. The rebuild kit supplier will know. But C just thought I'd ask you guys.

  

 In addition C Noel thanks for the Tiny Tak info. I ordered one and it sure looks slick for $50. I will leave the dial one in and mount the Tiny Tak also. Instructions call for 3 to 4 wraps on the spark plug lead. When you wrap both leads of the 2 plugs to one cylinder to get reading durning mag check C how many wraps per plug lead are you using? 

  

 Pat Reilly 

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL

  

 > From: fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net

[quote] To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: 582 fuel pump

 Date: Thu C 1 Jan 2009 09:16:12 -0500

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>

 

 What you're using will probably work fine. I read somewhere that it should 

 be kept to 12" or less C if possible and it's inadvisable to use any sort of 

 soft line C like polyurethane as it will flex (in/out) with the piston pulses 

 and can inhibit the pumping action of the diaphragm. My suggestion would be 

 to use fuel injection line. That stuff is built to handle high pressure and 

 won't flex at all. It's about $5 a foot C but worth it for something like 

 this. Once it's on there C it should last the life of the engine.

 Happy 2009 everybody.

 

 Deke Morisse

 Mikado Michigan

 S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

 "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory C but progress."

 - Joseph Joubert

 

 ---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: 582 fuel pump

At 07:48 AM 1/1/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  The rebuild kits I see are for the Mikuni pump with the straight 

access port tubes. Are those two pumps identical inside, and use the 

same rebuild kit? I have the bent tube pump. The rebuild kit 

supplier will know. But, just thought I'd ask you guys.


	


An aside, Pat. Last September, when I rebuilt my fuel pump, CPS sold 

me an aftermarket rebuild kit that I felt was junk. Beware. I will 

insist on Mikuni parts in the future.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade

100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:08 am Post subject: 582 fuel pump

If it were me, I would just mount the pump in a suitable  spot that makes everything easy with short runs.  Any snowmobile dealer  should have a rebuild kit for it, or even a new pump for that matter.  What  makes you think it needs one?

 Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+  TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but  progress."

- Joseph Joubert

  

 [quote]   ---

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: 582 fuel pump

 	  Quote: 	
		  The fuel pumpï¿½mounting location requires about 20" of hose. I am going to use hard tube to shorten the run. Hose requires me to loop around 180 degrees. I don't think I can twist the square brass inlet port to allow access from the other side. 	




Pat, you can rotate the plates that make up the fuel pump.  Take it apart and you will see that you can put it back together with the pulse port fitting pointing where you want it to.  It is pretty simple inside, you can't put the plates back together wrong.  If you take out the diaphrams and rubber parts place them on your work table in an order so you can tell where they came from and you can put them back in where they belong.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:54 pm Post subject: 582 fuel pump

Tom C Thanks for the tip. I won't have to spend time trying to figure that out now. I am going to rebuild that pump. It has been laying around for awhile. I will rotate the top plate when I rebuild it and be able to shorten that run from 12" to around 8".

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: 582 fuel pump

 From: nahsikhs(at)elltel.net

 Date: Thu C 1 Jan 2009 12:31:36 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>

 

 

 > The fuel pumpï¿½mounting location requires about 20" of hose. I am going to use hard tube to shorten the run. Hose requires me to loop around 180 degrees. I don't think I can twist the square brass inlet port to allow access from the other side.

 

 

 Pat C you can rotate the plates that make up the fuel pump. Take it apart and you will see that you can put it back together with the pulse port fitting pointing where you want it to. It is pretty simple inside C you can't put the plates back together wrong. If you take out the diaphrams and rubber parts place them on your work table in an order so you can tell where they came from and you can put them back in where they belong.

 

 --------

 Tom Jones

 Classic IV

 503 Rotax C 72 inch Two blade Warp

 Ellensburg C WA

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222231#222231

 

 

 

 

 

=====================
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   _=======================

&g===
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:02 pm Post subject: 582 fuel pump

Deke C The pump has been laying around for a couple of years. A rebuild kit is $15. For $15 and a 1/2 hours time C I will feel cofident that the pump is operable. And Tom says I can rotate the top plate 180 degrees. That will give me a vacumn line run ao about 8" that should be short enough.

  

  

 Pat Reilly

   

 From: fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: 582 fuel pump

Date: Thu C 1 Jan 2009 12:07:33 -0500

  .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}   If it were me C I would just mount the pump in a suitable spot that makes everything easy with short runs.  Any snowmobile dealer should have a rebuild kit for it C or even a new pump for that matter.  What makes you think it needs one?

 Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory C but progress."

- Joseph Joubert

  

 [quote] ---

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:04 pm Post subject: 582 fuel pump

Guy C Thanks for the heads up. I will insist on a genuine Mikuni rebuild kit. I thought CPS was a top drawer supplier?

  

 Pat Reilly



 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Thu C 1 Jan 2009 08:49:31 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 From: bnn(at)nethere.com

 Subject: RE: Re: 582 fuel pump

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>

 

 At 07:48 AM 1/1/2009 C you wrote:

 >The rebuild kits I see are for the Mikuni pump with the straight 

 >access port tubes. Are those two pumps identical inside C and use the 

 >same rebuild kit? I have the bent tube pump. The rebuild kit 

 >supplier will know. But C just thought I'd ask you guys.

 

 An aside C Pat. Last September C when I rebuilt my fuel pump C CPS sold 

 me an aftermarket rebuild kit that I felt was junk. Beware. I will 

 insist on Mikuni parts in the future.

 

 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego C CA

 K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade

 100% and flying than==============

 

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

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