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air start

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lbpollock(at)sympatico.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:38 am Post subject: air start

I am installing the air start Packer valves  assembly ,I would like to put it under the pilot seat, but I heard it is better  on the fire wall to be higher than the air compressor .The reason not to put it  lower was that all the oil and water will contaminate the packer valve  assembly .Does anybody have information on this?

                                         Thankyou

                                         Bill

                                         Moose-244

   [quote][b]

lbpollock(at)sympatico.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:16 pm Post subject: air start

---

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:29 pm Post subject: air start

Well... being less than all knowing... I have to ask:  What is the "air start Packer Valve Assy"?  My guess is that it is some kind of American made part that replaces the normal air starter valve.  ???

  

 Mark

 

 

 

   From: B-L Pollock <lbpollock(at)sympatico.ca>

To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Thursday, January 1, 2009 5:15:49 PM

Subject: Fw: air start



    

 ---

lbpollock(at)sympatico.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:49 am Post subject: air start

Hi Mark

   Your right it is the start valve.I have  decided to take good advice and hang all the air start valves and  discharged valve on the firewall.Keep the  system simple!

  

                              Bill---

dstroud(at)storm.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:23 pm Post subject: air start

My firewall is too small to put these important bits up  front, but behind the third row of seats I have 26

 cubic feet of baggage space so part of it will become the  "mechanical room" and will house the

 air tank, it's valves etc and the electrical panel. In  this configuration, one air tube will run forward and

 another rearward each about 10 feet in length. Can anyone  see any reason why this should not work?

 Thanks...

  

 David Stroud     Ottawa,  Canada

Christavia C-FDWS

Fairchild 51 replica

under  construction  C-FYXV

 [quote]   ---

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: air start

This gets into an engineering level discussion that we need Brian Lloyd for.  There probably will be no problem at all doing this.  However it bears mentioning what the problem COULD be.  When you extend the length of the supply air line, you increase resistance and decrease flow volume.  Reducing the flow volume is not catastrophic of course, it could just mean slightly longer times for gear movement, flap movement (if you have gear and flaps that move by pneumatics to begin with of course!) and engine starting issues.  Probably not a problem for gear or flaps since they are both flow RESTRICTED with aircraft that use air for that purpose.  Starting though.... Hmmm.   Wish I had the math of figure that... but I do not... not off the top of  my head anyway.  I will defer with someone who can compute it.  However, if it were me... I might consider stepping up size on the line from say a #4 AN fitting to a #6, sizing the line itself accordingly.  This might indeed be overkill... but it darn sure would never hurt either.  I'll be interested in what other input you get.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich

  



 

   From: DAVID STROUD <dstroud(at)storm.ca>

To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2009 6:22:29 PM

Subject: Re: Fw: air start



 DIV { MARGIN:0px;}   My firewall is too small to put these important bits up front, but behind the third row of seats I have 26

 cubic feet of baggage space so part of it will become the "mechanical room" and will house the

 air tank, it's valves etc and the electrical panel. In this configuration, one air tube will run forward and

 another rearward each about 10 feet in length. Can anyone see any reason why this should not work?

 Thanks...

  

 David Stroud     Ottawa, Canada

Christavia C-FDWS

Fairchild 51 replica

under  construction C-FYXV

 [quote] ---

n35dy(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:59 pm Post subject: air start

Probably not a problem for starting either. I am starting my Model 12 with a  start bottle that is behind the rear seat and fed by a 1/4 " line.  Early on I tested the system out with a 12 foot length of line and it turned the engine fine. Can't speak for flight controls or gear since I don't move those. 

Dan Young



On Jan 4, 2009, at 7:52 PM, Yak Pilot wrote:

[quote]This gets into an engineering level discussion that we need Brian Lloyd for.  There probably will be no problem at all doing this.  However it bears mentioning what the problem COULD be.  When you extend the length of the supply air line, you increase resistance and decrease flow volume.  Reducing the flow volume is not catastrophic of course, it could just mean slightly longer times for gear movement, flap movement (if you have gear and flaps that move by pneumatics to begin with of course!) and engine starting issues.  Probably not a problem for gear or flaps since they are both flow RESTRICTED with aircraft that use air for that purpose.  Starting though.... Hmmm.   Wish I had the math of figure that... but I do not... not off the top of my head anyway.  I will defer with someone who can compute it.  However, if it were me... I might consider stepping up size on the line from say a #4 AN fitting to a #6, sizing the line itself accordingly.  This might indeed be overkill... but it darn sure would never hurt either.  I'll be interested in what other input you get. 

 

Mark Bitterlich

 

From: DAVID STROUD <dstroud(at)storm.ca (dstroud(at)storm.ca)>

To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com (m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2009 6:22:29 PM

Subject: Re: Fw: air start



My firewall is too small to put these important bits up front, but behind the third row of seats I have 26

cubic feet of baggage space so part of it will become the "mechanical room" and will house the

air tank, it's valves etc and the electrical panel. In this configuration, one air tube will run forward and

another rearward each about 10 feet in length. Can anyone see any reason why this should not work?

Thanks...

 

David Stroud     Ottawa, Canada

Christavia C-FDWS

Fairchild 51 replica

under  construction C-FYXV

[quote]---

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: air start

Are you using the original Russian valve?  If so, there is good reason for putting it under the seat.  The older style valve of this type had a manual lever on the side that allowed them to be activated by hand if the electrical side of the house went Tango Uniform.  The newer Russian model valve does not have this feature, but can be retrofitted easily if you happen to lay your hands on the older style valve down the road.  In the YAK-52 you can activate the level on this valve with your foot.  In the 50, you need to go up and into the nose hell hole to get to it.  

  

 Something to think about.  If this is a totally new install (as in a "Moose") and this is NOT the Russian designed starter valve,  it would be a very smart move to put a MANUAL valve in parallel with the electrically activated one.  That way, if total electrical power is lost out in the boonies, you can start the engine by manually opening an air valve. 

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 N50YK

 

 

 

   From: B-L Pollock <lbpollock(at)sympatico.ca>

To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2009 1:49:05 PM

Subject: Re: Fw: air start



 DIV { MARGIN:0px;}   Hi Mark

   Your right it is the start valve.I have decided to take good advice and hang all the air start valves and discharged valve on the firewall.Keep the system simple!

  

                             Bill---

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: air start

Are you using the original Russian valve?  If so, there is good reason for putting it under the seat.  The older style valve of this type had a manual lever on the side that allowed them to be activated by hand if the electrical side of the house went Tango Uniform.  The newer Russian model valve does not have this feature, but can be retrofitted easily if you happen to lay your hands on the older style valve down the road.  In the YAK-52 you can activate the level on this valve with your foot.  In the 50, you need to go up and into the nose hell hole to get to it.  

  

 Something to think about.  If this is a totally new install (as in a "Moose") and this is NOT the Russian designed starter valve,  it would be a very smart move to put a MANUAL valve in parallel with the electrically activated one.  That way, if total electrical power is lost out in the boonies, you can start the engine by manually opening an air valve. 

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 N50YK

 

 

 

   From: B-L Pollock <lbpollock(at)sympatico.ca>

To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2009 1:49:05 PM

Subject: Re: Fw: air start



 DIV { MARGIN:0px;}   Hi Mark

   Your right it is the start valve.I have decided to take good advice and hang all the air start valves and discharged valve on the firewall.Keep the system simple!

  

                             Bill---

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:16 pm Post subject: air start

Well there you go!  1/4" line is probably AN#4, so it looks safe to go with that.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich

  

 p.s, Thanks Daniel



 

   From: Daniel Young <n35dy(at)bellsouth.net>

To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2009 8:58:42 PM

Subject: Re: Fw: air start



Probably not a problem for starting either.  I am starting my Model 12 with a  start bottle that is behind the rear seat and fed by a 1/4 " line.  Early on I tested the system out with a 12 foot length of line and it turned the engine fine. Can't speak for flight controls or gear since I don't move those. 

 



 Dan Young

 

  On Jan 4, 2009, at 7:52 PM, Yak Pilot wrote:

 [quote]   This gets into an engineering level discussion that we need Brian Lloyd for.  There probably will be no problem at all doing this.  However it bears mentioning what the problem COULD be.  When you extend the length of the supply air line, you increase resistance and decrease flow volume.  Reducing the flow volume is not catastrophic of course, it could just mean slightly longer times for gear movement, flap movement (if you have gear and flaps that move by pneumatics to begin with of course!) and engine starting issues.  Probably not a problem for gear or flaps since they are both flow RESTRICTED with aircraft that use air for that purpose.  Starting though.... Hmmm.   Wish I had the math of figure that... but I do not... not off the top of my head anyway.  I will defer with someone who can compute it.  However, if it were me... I might consider stepping up size on  the line from say a #4 AN fitting to a #6, sizing the line itself accordingly.  This might indeed be overkill... but it darn sure would never hurt either.  I'll be interested in what other input you get. 

  

 Mark Bitterlich

  



 

   From: DAVID STROUD <dstroud(at)storm.ca (dstroud(at)storm.ca)>

To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com (m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2009 6:22:29 PM

Subject: Re: Fw: air start



 My firewall is too small to put these important bits up front, but behind the third row of seats I have 26

 cubic feet of baggage space so part of it will become the "mechanical room" and will house the

 air tank, it's valves etc and the electrical panel. In this configuration, one air tube will run forward and

 another rearward each about 10 feet in length. Can anyone see any reason why this should not work?

 Thanks...

  

 David Stroud     Ottawa, Canada

Christavia C-FDWS

Fairchild 51 replica

under  construction C-FYXV

 [quote] ---

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