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XL wing concerns
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Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:37 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

Darryl



One of the little known features of the Matronics user interface is that, 

once one logs on to the BBS Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists, 

you can edit your previous posts. (For that matter you may be able to edit 

other folk's posts also, I do not know about that.) Sabrina posted a 

message a few months ago to the effect that she routinely deletes her posts 

after some period of time. So, unless you read the Matronics lists by via 

email (and save the messages), you may not have retroactive access to the 

content of posts that have been edited.



Unfortunately, this feature has the potential to greatly reduce the value 

of the Matronics archives. So, the word to the wise on-line reader of the 

Zenith-List is,



"If you see something that is really valuable or important to you, then you 

might want to save it on your PC for future reference."



(The Scrapbook add-on to Firefox will save web pages on your local 

computer. IE may have a similar capability.) Unfortunately, it is sometimes 

difficult to anticipate, today, what information will be very important to 

me 4 months after today.



One  other  annoying "feature" of the Matronics user interface is that, 

occasionally, a message seems to show up with the BBS Interface, but not 

make it to my computer through the email list. Some times I'll see a post 

that replies to  an earlier post that I've not received. If I follow the 

link to the BBS Interface that is insesrted into emailed posts, 

Viola--there is the missing post. I don't know why I never received the 

original post by email.



In summary, missing or incomplete posts are not caused by your browser. 

They are a "feature" of the Matronics user interface.



Terry





At 03:22 AM 1/10/2009 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  why is it that I can't read Sabrina's posts? Have tried IE and Mozilla 

browsers. weird.

Darryl

Do not archive


	




Terry Phillips  ZBAGer

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:01 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

I just checked and I can't read her posts on the web forum either, I  

don't recall having a problem reading them in my email reader though.   

I have tried Firefox and Safari on my Mac with no luck. The others  

that are reading and replying to her posts may be doing so in an email  

reader. Since others are having trouble reading her posts on the web,  

there may be nothing wrong on your end, it might be something on her  

end.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 



 Darryl,

 I have the same problem with Sabrina's and occasionally other posts  

 that are blank.  I emailed Matt Dralle about it once but didn't get  

 any reply.  I'm reading these posts from the web forum, and not via  

 email.  Once in a while Sabrina posts something that I can read, but  

 95% of her posts are blank.  It's obvious others are reading them  

 because they post replies to her's.

 Dan Dempsey




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

On Saturday 10 January 2009 11:18, Sabrina wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   as far as loosing parts, the aileron bell crank mount is one item you might

 not mind loosing-- I redesigned it using Aircraft Spruce parts... and Gig

 is correct, order the replacement and the original magically reappears... 

 (nose gear stop plate in my case.)  As to the bell crank, I changed the

 geometry, beefed up the rib, raised and shrunk the hole in the rear spar.


	


Would you be interested in sharing the reasoning behind your changes, and what 

the specific changes were? I'm not a structures guy, but the bellcrank looks 

beefy in comparison to that mount, and the reinforcement added to the rib.

-- 

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

Darryl Legg

Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Darwin, Australia

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:43 am Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

Hi Sabrina,

I am a member, and subscribe, and still don't see why any-ones post can't be viewed. Please tell.

Darryl.

eldenej(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

Sabrina,

  

 Can you post drawings of the bellcrank change(s)?

  

 Thanks,

 Elden Jacobson

 xl/3300

 Do not archive



--- On Sun, 1/11/09, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

Subject: Re: XL wing concerns

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 1:18 AM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina"

<chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



My comments are for those who are concerned, not just the casual reader or

someone surfing the Internet in the future.   Zenith, Zenair, FAA, NTSB, LAA

people and countless builders subscribe to the list and receive all our posts

via e-mail.  (Even Jim Irwin subscribes!)   So join and subscribe, don't

just be a guest or a passive member.



So... I finished intersession week, met with a top Fermi Lab physicist for

dinner last night along with a King Air owner/pilot and we had an interesting

discussion about the slight forward sweep of the wings in cruise attitude.... 



as far as loosing parts, the aileron bell crank mount is one item you might not

mind loosing-- I redesigned it using Aircraft Spruce parts... and Gig is

correct, order the replacement and the original magically reappears...  (nose

gear stop plate in my case.)  As to the bell crank, I changed the geometry,

beefed up the rib, raised and shrunk the hole in the rear spar.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 23873#223873





	
	


         [quote][b]

Darryl Legg

Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Darwin, Australia

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:07 am Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

Hi Sabrina,

I receive daily digests via e-mail and browse the forums occasionally, just today noticing that your posts were blank. In fact, your post changed on the forum just now, did you edit it? Very strange mate!

Darryl.

eldenej(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:52 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

You lost me on this one.



--- On Sun, 1/11/09, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

Subject: Re: XL wing concerns

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 2:23 AM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina"

<chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



Once Elden posted why keep the original?





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 23888#223888





	
	


           [quote][b]

carlossa52(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:57 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

Why not ????



2009/1/10 Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com (chicago2paris(at)msn.com)>

[quote] --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com (chicago2paris(at)msn.com)>

 

 Once Elden posted why keep the original?

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223888#223888

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 br> -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List

 ===========

 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 e -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:57 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

I want to chastise many of the posters to this forum. (I'm not picking on Sabrina, alone)

 

 Consider this posting:

 

 

   --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com (chicago2paris(at)msn.com)>

   	  Quote: 	
		  

Once Elden posted why keep the original?

It obviously has nothing to do with "XL wing concerns".  



Without context, the statement is totally meaningless.



PLEASE :



1)  When the subject changes, change the subject line



2)  Include some hint of context so your post will make sense and have some relevance.

Jay in Dallas

Do not archive



	
 

      Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com 

  [quote][b]

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:38 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

Sabrina,

 

 I am a card-carrying, registered member of this list (NOT a "guest"), and I have no idea what a "PM" is, other than after noon, or what a "mass-PM" is.

 

 I can and do change the subject line when it is appropriate.

 

 Jay in Dallas

 Do not archive

 

   

 

   

 

 --

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:57 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

On Saturday 10 January 2009 13:21, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Jim, Elden, Jay, Carlos, please join the list as a registered user...


	


Sabrina, as best as I can tell, I joined the list as a registered user last 

July. If I correctly understand how the list works, it won't forward email to 

me unless I am registered. I still have the email on file from Matt welcoming 

me.



Having said that, when I go to the list of users, I find neither my name nor 

any of the psuedonyms I normally use. I'm going to email Matt and see if he 

can clarify my status.

-- 

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:12 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

On Saturday 10 January 2009 13:32, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Sabrina,



 I am a card-carrying, registered member of this list (NOT a "guest"), and I

 have no idea what a "PM" is, other than after noon, or what a "mass-PM" is.


	


I think a "PM" is a personal message. What I suspect is, at least in my case, 

while I'm obviously a member, my name doesn't appear to be showing up in the 

list of members. It looks as thought that's necessary to send me a personal 

message with the information I requested. How the personal message mechanism 

works, I don't know, but I found "tags" allowing the sending of personal 

messages in the list of members.



This sounds like a typical software glitch. It may be that you, Elden, Carlos 

and I for some reason don't show up in that list.



Sign. I remind myself sometimes that I was once one of the young turks who 

wanted to computerize everything. Here we are, nearly 40 years later, and I 

got my wish. Payback is a bummer.

-- 

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:40 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

On Saturday 10 January 2009 15:28, Sabrina wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Now that that is cleared up, does anyone want to talk airplane?


	


I think the problem is more postponed than cleared up, but we can hope.



 	  Quote: 	
		   XL Wing Concerns:



 First concern I remember having in early 2006 was the size and placement of

 the aileron push rod hole in the rear spar...



 I don't think anyone would place that large of a hole (compared to the

 height of the beam) that low in their floor joists...



 Comments...


	


Drawing 6W7, dated 01/08, shows a 38mm (dia) hole at station 1995, centered 

20mm from the rear spar edge. Unless somebody has changed the rules of math, 

half of 38mm is 19mm, which would leave 1mm of rear spar material at the 

bottom.



I find myself somewhat unwilling to cut a hole of this dimension at that 

location. I wonder if anyone actually did this....

-- 

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:33 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

On Saturday 10 January 2009 16:00, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 If you are going to change the location, you have to give up leverage

 (repositioning the horn slightly) and/or align the bellcrank better...



 when you reposition the bellcrank, you shift the aileron cables and the

 bellcrank may bottom out on the rib's lightening holes.  This may require a

 larger extruded angle to reposition the bellcrank further away from the

 rib.



 this repositions the aileron balance cable so it is not so close to 6B5-1,

 which I never liked...  the second fairlead mounted to 6B5-1 should be a

 hint that something is amiss...   see 6-B-22


	


This is disturbing. A reason for doing engineering  is to find problems before 

metal is cut and things are assembled. This design has been in the field for 

several years, yet it does not appear this problem has been identified or 

resolved.



If drawing 6W10 is to be believed, there is no reason to have the hole quite 

this low in the rear spar.  Is there, once the metal is assembled, the 

potential to  reduce the size of the hole?



The real problem would appear to be the configuration of the control horn on 

the aileron. It might have been better structurallly to have the horn below 

the aileron, and to have a bent pushrod that exited through the lower 

aircraft skin. That would have required a slot in the skin, but I believe 

this could be done with less structural impact.



That, however, would create slop in the pushrod motion, which is also 

undesirable. I don't think the pushrod, as it is presently designed, would 

work in this configuration.



I haven't gotten to the point of checking the location of the aileron balance 

cable relative to 6B5-1. However, it looks like this part of the design dug a 

nice little hole, which the designer(s) then kludged the rest of this part of 

the control mechanism to fix.



I also wonder about putting some reinforcement along the bottom of the rear 

spar, lapping the hole area. But it would still require moving the hole 

upwards some. That 1mm dimension isn't going to cut it in any approach I can 

imagine.



Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:07 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

Hi Jim



First, I know of no evidence that suggests failure in the rear spar at this 

point. None-the-less, some folks have been concerned about this potential 

weakness. I have seen quickbuild spars that have the hole very close to the 

flange. See photo attached.



Andy Elliott expressed concern about this issue some time ago and suggested 

a doubler for the bottom flange. See



http://members.cox.net/n601ge/drawings/rearspar.html



If you are concerned you might try Andy's idea.



Terry

At 04:35 PM 1/10/2009 -0600, Jim wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  This is disturbing. A reason for doing engineering  is to find problems 

before

metal is cut and things are assembled. This design has been in the field for

several years, yet it does not appear this problem has been identified or

resolved.



If drawing 6W10 is to be believed, there is no reason to have the hole quite

this low in the rear spar.  Is there, once the metal is assembled, the

potential to  reduce the size of the hole?



The real problem would appear to be the configuration of the control horn on

the aileron. It might have been better structurallly to have the horn below

the aileron, and to have a bent pushrod that exited through the lower

aircraft skin. That would have required a slot in the skin, but I believe

this could be done with less structural impact.



That, however, would create slop in the pushrod motion, which is also

undesirable. I don't think the pushrod, as it is presently designed, would

work in this configuration.



I haven't gotten to the point of checking the location of the aileron balance

cable relative to 6B5-1. However, it looks like this part of the design dug a

nice little hole, which the designer(s) then kludged the rest of this part of

the control mechanism to fix.



I also wonder about putting some reinforcement along the bottom of the rear

spar, lapping the hole area. But it would still require moving the hole

upwards some. That 1mm dimension isn't going to cut it in any approach I can

imagine.


	




Terry Phillips  ZBAGer

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

DSCN4360_(Medium).JPG

Description:

Filesize:

51.58 KB

Viewed:

628 Time(s)

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

I share your concern and was very careful making that hole, drilling a  

little undersized and then filing.

However, look at where the hole is along the length of the spare.  No   

where near the full strength of the spar is needed that far from the  

root.  As long as you stay out of the flange I'm sure there is plenty  

of strength remaining.   You just want to sure not to cut into the  

flange.



As far as beams go, if the beam was cut this much at the end, which is  

pure shear and not in the middle, it wouldn't make any difference at  

all. Ever look a how a steel building is bolted together?  The  

connector at the ends are always shallower than the beam being  

connected.



Ron

On Jan 10, 2009, at 4:28 PM, Sabrina wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



 Now that that is cleared up, does anyone want to talk airplane?



 XL Wing Concerns:



 First concern I remember having in early 2006 was the size and  

 placement of the aileron push rod hole in the rear spar...



 I don't think anyone would place that large of a hole (compared to  

 the height of the beam) that low in their floor joists...



 Comments...





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 23918#223918

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:23 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

Jim, 

 

 Are you saying that there was no engineering in the design of the 601XL?  The guy that designed the XL is a dedicated aeronautical engineer who has thousands of home built airplanes flying.  As far as I know, no home built XL has ever failed for unknown reasons.  XLs have flown many, many hours; and if built to the design and flown within the design parameters, there have been no problems.  It is when the design has not been followed and the airplane not flown within its intended regime that problems develop. I know you are a smart guy, but there is no way you can know everything that went into the engineering and design of the XL.  Smart builders rely on the "smarts" of the designer and build it the way it was designed.

 

 That's my OPINION and I'm sticking to it. ;>)

 

 Jay in Dallas

 

   

 

   

 

 --

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:36 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

On Saturday 10 January 2009 17:23, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Jim,



 Are you saying that there was no engineering in the design of the 601XL??

 The guy that designed the XL is a dedicated aeronautical engineer who has

 thousands of home built airplanes flying.? As far as I know, no home built

 XL has ever failed for unknown reasons.? XLs have flown many, many hours;

 and if built to the design and flown within the design

 parameters, there have been no problems.? It is when the design has not

 been followed and the airplane not flown within its intended regime

 that problems develop. I know you are a smart guy, but there is no way you

 can know everything that went into the engineering and design of the XL.?

 Smart builders rely on the "smarts" of the designer and build it the way it

 was designed.



 That's my OPINION and I'm sticking to it. ;>)


	


I do think the guy is a smart engineer, but I think even smart engineers can 

have oversights. I also know how easy it is to get something into a design, 

and keep changing other things later to acommodate an earlier decision.



I'm not saying this is the cause of any failures. I'm saying this particular 

thing isn't very good design, no matter who did it. All of us make mistakes; 

Chris Heinz is no exception. I have a lot of confidence in the overall 

design, but that doesn't mean everything is perfect.

-- 

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

If I recall correctly from back then, others were adding a doubler about 18" long to the spar to attempt to compensate for the poor location of the passthrough.



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Sat, 1/10/09, Jim Belcher <z601(at)anemicaardvark.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Jim Belcher <z601(at)anemicaardvark.com>

Subject: Re: Re: XL wing concerns

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 4:42 PM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jim Belcher

<z601(at)anemicaardvark.com>



On Saturday 10 January 2009 15:28, Sabrina wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Now that that is cleared up, does anyone want to talk  airplane?


	


I think the problem is more postponed than cleared up, but we can hope.



 	  Quote: 	
		   XL Wing Concerns:



 First concern I remember having in early 2006 was the size and placement

of
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   the aileron push rod hole in the rear spar...



 I don't think anyone would place that large of a hole (compared to the

 height of the beam) that low in their floor joists...



 Comments...


	


Drawing 6W7, dated 01/08, shows a 38mm (dia) hole at station 1995, centered 

20mm from the rear spar edge. Unless somebody has changed the rules of math, 

half of 38mm is 19mm, which would leave 1mm of rear spar material at the 

bottom.



I find myself somewhat unwilling to cut a hole of this dimension at that 

location. I wonder if anyone actually did this....

-- 

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't,         [quote][b]

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