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AirMike

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:41 pm Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

getting toward the finish line and I would like to get some feed back on paint and finish



1. Cowling - how many are using just smoothprime to finish the cowling prior to painting?  Sealing pinholes seems to be a big problem here.



2. PPG DCC Concept seems to be a very popular paint right now. Does anyone who has used it have any feedback - (expensive)



3. I was told today that PPG DCC Concept does not need to follow the traditional :  scotch brite (aluminum) - alodine - prime - paint protocol

I was told that you can go right to the paint from the alodine process??

_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold.

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:43 am Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

I found the PPG Concept to be pretty good paint for spraying.

I'm sure there are many good ways to go though.  It does

have the advantage of being available locally for me.

I do think you still have to do the necessary steps.



Scotchbrite, etching primer, sealing primer, paint.

Now if the surface was alodined, I'm not positive, but

you probably don't have much exterior alodined metal at

this time I'm guessing.  If you did have the body alodined,

maybe it would be possible to skip the etching primer, but

I don't know many who are alodining the exterior first.



A couple nights ago I sat in a chair in the back of the hangar,

looking at the light reflecting off the empennage.  It was

overwhelming how pretty it all looked.  The paint in some

areas of the plane isn't perfect...after all, it was a DIY+help

job, but boy did that area look good to me.

I'd encourage many people to get some competent help and

give a home spray job a try...you'll save many thousands of

dollars.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

AirMike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 getting toward the finish line and I would like to get some feed back

 on paint and finish

 

 1. Cowling - how many are using just smoothprime to finish the

 cowling prior to painting?  Sealing pinholes seems to be a big

 problem here.

 

 2. PPG DCC Concept seems to be a very popular paint right now. Does

 anyone who has used it have any feedback - (expensive)

 

 3. I was told today that PPG DCC Concept does not need to follow the

 traditional :  scotch brite (aluminum) - alodine - prime - paint

 protocol I was told that you can go right to the paint from the

 alodine process??

 

 -------- OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in &quot;09 Q/B Kit -

 wiring and FWF

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 31758#231758

timrvator(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:03 am Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

The PPG tech line is 1-800-647-6050.  They've been instructed to refer 

airplane questions to their aircraft paint line (different product), so 

I couched my PPG Concept questions to apply to a custom car with 

aluminum, fiberglass, steel, and plexiglass components. 



I'm taking the route of:

- conversion (DX533/DX503 for aluminum, DX579/DX520 for the steps)

- DP48LF epoxy primer (DP402LF catalyst)

- DCC single stage top coat (DT885 reducer and DCX61 activator), DX73 

fisheye eliminator if needed



I'm going to try  the single stage (DCC) topcoat on a small piece first 

(rudder, perhaps) to see what kind of rivet coverage I get.  I've had 

lots of problems with Imron not covering rivets properly (10 years ago 

on my RV-6A).  If the DCC covers the rivets OK I'll press ahead.  If 

not, I may try PPG's basecoat/clearcoat system.



Tim



-- 

Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)

RV-6A N47TD -- 1000 hrs

RV-10 #40059 under construction



AirMike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 getting toward the finish line and I would like to get some feed back on paint and finish



 1. Cowling - how many are using just smoothprime to finish the cowling prior to painting?  Sealing pinholes seems to be a big problem here.



 2. PPG DCC Concept seems to be a very popular paint right now. Does anyone who has used it have any feedback - (expensive)



 3. I was told today that PPG DCC Concept does not need to follow the traditional :  scotch brite (aluminum) - alodine - prime - paint protocol

 I was told that you can go right to the paint from the alodine process??



 --------

 OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in &quot;09

 Q/B Kit - wiring and FWF





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 31758#231758

n223rv(at)wolflakeairport
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:03 am Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

I've used DCC on my RV-4 inside and out as have 4 of my friends.  Is  

is very east to spray and is very durable.  I acid etched and primed  

prior to paint.  I am not sure I'd spray it directly to the aluminum  

without primer first....

I also have sprayed the interior of my -10 with DCC, but it Is not  

flying yet.

-Mike Kraus

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 24, 2009, at 7:42 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I found the PPG Concept to be pretty good paint for spraying.

 I'm sure there are many good ways to go though.  It does

 have the advantage of being available locally for me.

 I do think you still have to do the necessary steps.

 Scotchbrite, etching primer, sealing primer, paint.

 Now if the surface was alodined, I'm not positive, but

 you probably don't have much exterior alodined metal at

 this time I'm guessing.  If you did have the body alodined,

 maybe it would be possible to skip the etching primer, but

 I don't know many who are alodining the exterior first.

 A couple nights ago I sat in a chair in the back of the hangar,

 looking at the light reflecting off the empennage.  It was

 overwhelming how pretty it all looked.  The paint in some

 areas of the plane isn't perfect...after all, it was a DIY+help

 job, but boy did that area look good to me.

 I'd encourage many people to get some competent help and

 give a home spray job a try...you'll save many thousands of

 dollars.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 AirMike wrote:

> 

> getting toward the finish line and I would like to get some feed back

> on paint and finish

> 1. Cowling - how many are using just smoothprime to finish the

> cowling prior to painting?  Sealing pinholes seems to be a big

> problem here.

> 2. PPG DCC Concept seems to be a very popular paint right now. Does

> anyone who has used it have any feedback - (expensive)

> 3. I was told today that PPG DCC Concept does not need to follow the

> traditional :  scotch brite (aluminum) - alodine - prime - paint

> protocol I was told that you can go right to the paint from the

> alodine process??

> -------- OSH '08 or Bust (busted) be there in &quot;09 Q/B Kit -

> wiring and FWF

> Read this topic online here:

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 31758#231758

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:53 am Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

I'm using Mike Loehle's products. Wonderfil is just that, rub it in with a towel and prime..I've never seen such a great product. I'm aslo using Prekote, the newest metal prep product the Airforce is using. Rub it on with a red pad and it preps and conditions in one step. It is enviromentally safe. FWI Mike is the guy who did the article for Van's RVator using Gen Grumpys aka Gen Miller's RV-10 paint job. My total cost for the entire line of products was $2600 plus shipping for four colors. This included everything, primer, filler, thinner, Prekote.



Rick Sked

40185

---

RandyL

Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 4

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:23 am Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

 	  Quote: 	
		   1. Cowling - how many are using just smoothprime to finish the cowling 

 prior to painting?  Sealing pinholes seems to be a big problem here.


	


I'm sure you've read the advice to ALWAYS stay with one family of products. 

I've painted three planes now (two were my own) and used PPG for all 

including Concept DCC. Use SmoothPrime for the first heavy coat, sand off, 

then switch to PPG K38 for subsequent coats.



 	  Quote: 	
		   2. PPG DCC Concept seems to be a very popular paint right now. Does anyone 

 who has used it have any feedback - (expensive)


	


Excellent product and system. Experience with it here...

http://www.romeolima.com/RV3works/Paint/paint.html

..and here...

http://www.romeolima.com/RV8/Paint.htm



 	  Quote: 	
		   3. I was told today that PPG DCC Concept does not need to follow the 

 traditional :  scotch brite (aluminum) - alodine - prime - paint protocol

 I was told that you can go right to the paint from the alodine process??


	


You absolutely need to Scotchbrite the bajeezus out of the aluminum to let 

the coatings have both chemical and mechanical adhesion. You can use 

self-etching primer in lieu of the etch/alodine process however. PPG makes 

such a self-etch primer, DX1791 which is what I used -- no adhesion issues 

whatsoever.



Randy Lervold

RV-3B, 170 hrs and a joy to fly

RV-8, 368 hrs, sold

john(at)trollingers.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:50 am Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

A little off topic from this, but what can you expect from a painter

if you pay to have it done.  How much of the finishing work so you

still have to do yourself before taking it to a painter?



thanks,



John

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:14 am Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

Prices vary, but I think most people end up somewhere in the

$6,000-$8,000 range if I remember right, for a full job.

Some people can take it in rough and bring it home painted,

some need to take it in finished pretty well.  Of course,

if you pay by the hour it will be very beneficial to

do as much finishing as you can, and still do a good job.

It's not fun stuff.   But, if you finish it yourself, just

like Rick mentioned, I think my paint total was probably

in that $2,000-2,500 range for ever last paint supply,

so you can save a lot.  Enough to maybe buy a GNS-430W

or other gizmo, in some cases....and once you're up in the

air, the paint does a lot less in getting you down and home

safe than some of the other cool stuff.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

John Trollinger wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 A little off topic from this, but what can you expect from a painter

 if you pay to have it done.  How much of the finishing work so you

 still have to do yourself before taking it to a painter?

 

 thanks,

 

 John

tomflysalot

Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 27

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:27 am Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

John,



It really depends on the painter.  My painter helped me to do the finish

fiberglass work (sand, fill, prime, sand) to the point of perfection.  I

think, mainly, because he has pride of workmanship.  In other words, he

didn't want people to see his final product with my building flaws built

in.



Some painters don't care, but most want the finished product to be a

reflection of them.  



I had my painter put a coat of black primer on the plane so it would show

any imperfections.  Then, together, we work out the flaws.  Like

everything else, it's a matter of whose time is more valuable.



Many painters will give the option of "who does what".  If they feel

there is a lot of finish work to be done before paint, they may quote it

separately (so you have the option of doing it yourself, or paying them

to do it.  Items like exterior window trim, I felt he could do a better

job than me.



Hope this helps.



Tom

970-420-1798

____________________________________________________________

Click here to save cash and find low rates on auto loans.

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTLaWzD9WIFeJWdfWQajaUlLG6OBTb5U9vqCdsmHbuc3biU431xIpK/

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:05 am Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

I usually agree with Tim on all things but I doubt many builders will

find a professional to paint an RV-10 for $6,000. I would budget $8,000

as the floor for a turnkey paint job. As we all know the floor is NOT

the ceiling. 



Robin 



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:14 am Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

My favorite painter tagged his last job about 35% of his $10,000 fee for

finishing what the builder called "Ready for Topcoat".  Randy's post on

aggressive sanding and using the same company and chemistry between

binder then topcoat is critically important. His advice is usually "Rock

Solid"  the only point we depart on is the avoidance of clearcoat and

the use of a mist coat of reducer to thin down the "Orange Peel".  Yes

Deems, clear does add weight and additional protection.  A great painter

will sand a bunch of it off and buff it to lower the final weight.

Anyone want to add the GW of an SR22 and final sales price here?



That $10,000 did not include $5 in chemicals and $3 in custom artistic

airbrushing.



Deems shot is a great example of a delivered aircraft with three to four

color with plenty of clear overcoat protection.  To which Randy Lervold

could chime in that some of the weight was the clearcoat,  cause his

reducer evaporates like the air in Deems tires and the oxygen in his

tank. I wouldn't do it much different just to save the weight. It is a

chance to re-connect with the plane by doing dozens of hours of sanding

and buffing and sanding a buffing while listening to Jimmy Buffett with

a few cases of cold ones.



Randy Debauw with the first painted RV-10, did it with a friend who does

Harleys in the dead of winter during February "in his driveway" no less.

Tim gave a great encouragement of doing your own. Scott teased us with

his finished "Rocketman" wheel pants even before laying his brothers

beautiful creation down. Scott also used pearlescent white. Robin is

waiting to tease us with his pride and joy.  Each to their choice.  Just

budget a soda blast strip and repaint if you first choose unwisely or

your golly cool neighbor's newest Stewart System is not to your liking.



It really depends on you/and your painter/and the chemistry



John

503-453-6016

do not archive



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:28 am Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

That low end is something I'm digging out of old old old

discussions, so you're probably right...I actually was going

to say 6-10K, but I didn't know how accurate that would be

either.



What say the group???  Have many of you found professional

paint for $6000 or less?  How about on the high end....has

anyone had to pay over $9000?  And we're not talking

special deals that you got from a buddy....regular-guy

prices....what's it costing you folks to get pro paint these

days?

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Robin Marks wrote:

[quote] 

 

 I usually agree with Tim on all things but I doubt many builders will

 find a professional to paint an RV-10 for $6,000. I would budget $8,000

 as the floor for a turnkey paint job. As we all know the floor is NOT

 the ceiling. 

 

 Robin 

 

 --

john(at)trollingers.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

Is there any benefit or drawback to painting (or getting painted) the

pieces as they are finished vs waiting to paint the whole plane

flying.  It seems if I get good paint on it now it will protect it

during storage and spread the cost out over the build.  With it being

small pieces could probably get a custom paint shop to do it as well

vs a aircraft paint shop.

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

Ok John, you really want to see my paint...I will give you a sneak

peak... I do plan to add a touch more color.

As for the Tim's question, I am paying $8K but the painter did ALL the

sanding, fill (including wing rivets). That being said I was told 3

weeks, expected 5 weeks and am passing 2 months (insert painter story

here). Oh... and Tim there are several paint jobs over $12K+. Not sure

those people will chime in but they are definitely out there (and may be

worth the difference).

Robin



--

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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:37 pm Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

John,

	I will only speak to my unusual engine/cowl configuration.

Because I have an untested combination we had to do A LOT of R & D with

the cowl on/off much more than the standard Phase 1. ~100 times is not

an exaggeration. That would have been a bummer with it freshly painted.

Add to that the I installed under side gills, then more, then more lower

cowl mods and the thought of cutting into a painted plane (cowl

especially) would have been a heart wrenching. To my way of thinking

paint then fly may be easier, fly then paint may be better.



Robin

Do Not Archive

--

tomflysalot

Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 27

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

I spoke at length to my painter.  He said the range on RV-10 paint jobs

could run from $8,500, up.



Again, it's what you want.



Tom

____________________________________________________________

Click here to increase your salary by earning an online degree.

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTKL6dS3TkG2Nt9ChBF37nF85O5kRCSqEC2faRhOxBCJpWrLTTy0bm/

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:17 pm Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

John Trollinger wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Is there any benefit

You get good paint coverage all over the part
	


 	  Quote: 	
		    or drawback

You can't get good coverage in places like the wing/tail rear spar 
	


because the ailerons/flaps/elevators/rudder is in the way.

 	  Quote: 	
		    to painting (or getting painted) the

 pieces as they are finished vs waiting to paint the whole plane

 flying.  It seems if I get good paint on it now it will protect it

 during storage and spread the cost out over the build.

If you know what your base color will be, spray that and add the trim 
	


after the plane is assembled.

 	  Quote: 	
		     With it being

 small pieces could probably get a custom paint shop to do it as well

 vs a aircraft paint shop.

   

Much easier to take the pieces parts to your paint shop if you go that 
	


route. 

You've bought tools and learned to rivet, why not buy tools and learn to 

paint???  It isn't hat hard!

Linn



 	  Quote:

john(at)trollingers.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

I would not mind painting myself (and a solid color base coat with the

colors after assembly is what I would do) but I am building in the

garage of my town home and not sure how conducive that is to painting.

 I guess I have to research it some or see if anyone has a paint booth

in the northern Virginia area that I could use.



John

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:18 pm Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

What a tease.

  

 Dan has not officially surfaced and Deems has not offered what he invested.  I have seen both up close. Will fly to your's to see it close after you approve.

  



  John Cox



 

  From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Robin Marks

Sent: Tue 2/24/2009 12:29 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Finish and Paint questions ??

  

Ok John, you really want to see my paint...I will give you a sneak

peak... I do plan to add a touch more color.

As for the Tim's question, I am paying $8K but the painter did ALL the

sanding, fill (including wing rivets). That being said I was told 3

weeks, expected 5 weeks and am passing 2 months (insert painter story

here). Oh... and Tim there are several paint jobs over $12K+. Not sure

those people will chime in but they are definitely out there (and may be

worth the difference).

Robin



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:22 pm Post subject: Finish and Paint questions ??

Graphics and Number of colors in transition over parts have a BIG impact.  The painter, even if that is you, will decide what is best.  Good chemistry requests a min/max time to wait before sanding to apply second coats.  If done withing a few hours or days, the second application will still etch into the previous without mechanical intervention.

  



  John Cox



 

  From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of John Trollinger

Sent: Tue 2/24/2009 12:20 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Finish and Paint questions ??

  

--> RV10-List message posted by: John Trollinger <john(at)trollingers.com>



Is there any benefit or drawback to painting (or getting painted) the

pieces as they are finished vs waiting to paint the whole plane

flying.  It seems if I get good paint on it now it will protect it

during storage and spread the cost out over the build.  With it being

small pieces could probably get a custom paint shop to do it as well

vs a aircraft paint nbsp;      - The RV10-List Email Forum href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic--> http://forums.matronics.com

p;         - List Contribution bsp;                    -Matt Dralle, List href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=================





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