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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:02 pm Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

I had my first encounter with wake turbulence today. I had landed at  

KPTK (Pontiac, Mich...class D airspace, with customs service, so that  

may give an idea of its' busy-ness) and after a brief stay on the  

ground, I taxied to hold short of 27L for takeoff, staring across the  

runway into the intakes of a small twin-engine jet that was next to  

take off on this runway. The tower gave him the takeoff clearance,  

and away he went. I then got the tower clearance for me to go with  

the warning that I might encounter wake turbulence, and I could wait  

until I was comfortable to go...but "take all the time you want."   

After a long minute or so, I told the tower that I could probably  

take off, if I could climb out (way) shorter than his rotation point,  

and turn left when I wanted to, and got the ok to go. The wind was  

pretty much right down the runway, and about 13 knots, so I knew I  

could lift pretty good. I started out, and when aloft....very short  

rollout....I got a pretty good left-bank roll from his turbulence.  

The angle was a good 30+ degree bank, and I was really feeling the  

roll caused by his plane. It was pretty brief, and no *big* problem,  

but it really got my attention. This airport...the second largest in  

Michigan operations to only Detroit's class B...is a very busy 'port,  

so I didn't want to waste anybody's time sitting there, so I took off  

maybe a little too soon, but it worked out for me...this time. Next  

time I'll wait a bit longer and let the rest of the waiting planes  

wait. I had about half of a full fuel load (half of 26 gallons), and  

the extra weight probably helped stabilize the plane a bit, so I'm  

not sure that I'd want to try this procedure with a lighter-loaded  

plane.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:28 pm Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

In case you hadn't calculated it out Lynn - with the wind at 13 knots

straight down the runway his wake turbulence was moving towards you at 1,316

feet per minute, so in that "long minute" the distance between your take-off

roll and his put you right where his turbulence was. I'm open to discussion

here but I think that if you took off immediately after him you would have

been fine, or more than 2 or 3 minutes after when the turbulence had blown

past the end of the runway where you were waiting.



Does that make sense? (sanity check) And also no way I would have thought of

that in the cockpit rather than in front of the 'puter, but I will from now

on!



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

That makes sense to me, Bob, so that means it must be wrong. : )   

Seriously, it sounds like it would do as you describe. I'd like to  

hear what others think, also. The clockwise rotation of the  

turbulence from the left wing would do to me just what I felt it do.  

On the ground while waiting, I couldn't remember which direction the  

turbulence rotates, but I found out later that it is clockwise  

viewing from the rear of the lead aircraft on the left wing, and  

counter-clockwise from the right wing. Because my right wing lifted,  

I figured I ran into his clockwise-rotating turbulence coming from  

his left wing...he was using the right side of the runway, and I was  

using the left side.

All the diagrams that I have seen say to land beyond his touchdown  

point, or lift off before his rotation point, which is what I did,  

but I guess I didn't wait long enough.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Mar 27, 2009, at 5:27 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:



[quote] 

 <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>



 In case you hadn't calculated it out Lynn - with the wind at 13 knots

 straight down the runway his wake turbulence was moving towards you  

 at 1,316

 feet per minute, so in that "long minute" the distance between your  

 take-off

 roll and his put you right where his turbulence was. I'm open to  

 discussion

 here but I think that if you took off immediately after him you  

 would have

 been fine, or more than 2 or 3 minutes after when the turbulence  

 had blown

 past the end of the runway where you were waiting.



 Does that make sense? (sanity check) And also no way I would have  

 thought of

 that in the cockpit rather than in front of the 'puter, but I will  

 from now

 on!



 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:06 pm Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

All my book learnin' said the same thing to me - "land beyond his touchdown

point, and lift off before his rotation point", but his rotation point is

relative to the runway, while his turbulence will be relative to the air

mass which in this case was moving down the runway towards you. Turbulence

can't sit at a fixed point on a runway, it is a rotation *of* the air mass

at the point the plane took off. If that air mass moves, so does the

turbulence. I think...



Think raindrop in a lake - a radiating pattern of turbulance. Now think

raindrop in a fast-moving stream, does the pattern travel with the water or

stay exactly where the drop hit relative to the earth?



That should be in the AIM someplace...



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

I recall reading that if the wind is blowing from left to right,  

across the runway, that turbulence might just come from runway xxL to  

runway xxR, and bite you if you are on the right-side runway, so if  

it's coming down the runway...the wind, that is...it stands to reason  

that it will bite you if you are both on the same runway. Just  

another case of needing to stay current on ALL phases of flying,  

which I try to do. I just hadn't brushed up on my turbulence factors  

in a while....I will now!



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Mar 27, 2009, at 6:06 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:



[quote] 

 <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>



 All my book learnin' said the same thing to me - "land beyond his  

 touchdown

 point, and lift off before his rotation point", but his rotation  

 point is

 relative to the runway, while his turbulence will be relative to  

 the air

 mass which in this case was moving down the runway towards you.  

 Turbulence

 can't sit at a fixed point on a runway, it is a rotation *of* the  

 air mass

 at the point the plane took off. If that air mass moves, so does the

 turbulence. I think...



 Think raindrop in a lake - a radiating pattern of turbulance. Now  

 think

 raindrop in a fast-moving stream, does the pattern travel with the  

 water or

 stay exactly where the drop hit relative to the earth?



 That should be in the AIM someplace...



 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

MDKitfox(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:17 pm Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

Lynn,



I'm no expert on wake turbulence, but I've been there.  It's real, it's dangerous, and should be given a wide berth.  I've been rolled 90 degrees while on approach.  This was from a 747 - I was in a CRJ-200.  We were going into JFK and were 6 miles behind the 74 at 3000 feet, he was at 4000.  The roll was quick and exhilarating.  I know the passengers didn't like it, heck, we didn't like it!    We also had a similar, but less exciting, experience at Atlanta behind a 757.   Bottom line, we were at the legal distance behind the other aircraft and still had the encounter. 

Remember, the winds aloft are frequently different than those on the surface, all the calculations on the location of the wake based on the ground winds are estimates and remain  suspect.  The best defense is to wait out the max time, especially in low wind conditions where the wake can linger (yes, I believe it can be stationary on the runway for quite a while) or be blown across the runway at a leisurely pace.  I wouldn't go early unless you're absolutely convinced you know the wind environment.  

If the other guys get impatient, that's their problem.  Clearing debris off the runway, i.e. the remaining parts of your Fox, is a lot longer delay for them and will likely ruin your day.  If they want to go, let them.  You may have the basis for some good hangar stories as you watch the ensuing aerobatic show.

Just my two cents.

 Rick Weiss

N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS

SkyStar S/N 1

Port Orange, FL



 



On Mar 27, 2009, at 6:31 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>



I recall reading that if the wind is blowing from left to right, across the runway, that turbulence might just come from runway xxL to runway xxR, and bite you if you are on the right-side runway, so if it's coming down the runway...the wind, that is...it stands to reason that it will bite you if you are both on the same runway. Just another case of needing to stay current on ALL phases of flying, which I try to do. I just hadn't brushed up on my turbulence factors in a while....I will now!



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Mar 27, 2009, at 6:06 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:



[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Brennan" <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name (matronics(at)bob.brennan.name)>



All my book learnin' said the same thing to me - "land beyond his touchdown

point, and lift off before his rotation point", but his rotation point is

relative to the runway, while his turbulence will be relative to the air

mass which in this case was moving down the runway towards you. Turbulence

can't sit at a fixed point on a runway, it is a rotation *of* the air mass

at the point the plane took off. If that air mass moves, so does the

turbulence. I think...



Think raindrop in a lake - a radiating pattern of turbulance. Now think

raindrop in a fast-moving stream, does the pattern travel with the water or

stay exactly where the drop hit relative to the earth?



That should be in the AIM someplace...



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:19 am Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

Thanks for the advice, Rick...I think what really drives your message  

home is the words "Clearing debris off the runway, i.e. the remaining  

parts of your Fox". That'll stick in my memory from here on out.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Mar 27, 2009, at 11:14 PM, Weiss Richard wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn,



 I'm no expert on wake turbulence, but I've been there.  It's real,  

 it's dangerous, and should be given a wide berth.  I've been rolled  

 90 degrees while on approach.  This was from a 747 - I was in a  

 CRJ-200.  We were going into JFK and were 6 miles behind the 74 at  

 3000 feet, he was at 4000.  The roll was quick and exhilarating.  I  

 know the passengers didn't like it, heck, we didn't like it!    We  

 also had a similar, but less exciting, experience at Atlanta behind  

 a 757.   Bottom line, we were at the legal distance behind the  

 other aircraft and still had the encounter.



 Remember, the winds aloft are frequently different than those on  

 the surface, all the calculations on the location of the wake based  

 on the ground winds are estimates and remain  suspect.  The best  

 defense is to wait out the max time, especially in low wind  

 conditions where the wake can linger (yes, I believe it can be  

 stationary on the runway for quite a while) or be blown across the  

 runway at a leisurely pace.  I wouldn't go early unless you're  

 absolutely convinced you know the wind environment.



 If the other guys get impatient, that's their problem.  Clearing  

 debris off the runway, i.e. the remaining parts of your Fox, is a  

 lot longer delay for them and will likely ruin your day.  If they  

 want to go, let them.  You may have the basis for some good hangar  

 stories as you watch the ensuing aerobatic show.



 Just my two cents.



 Rick Weiss

 N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS

 SkyStar S/N 1

 Port Orange, FL

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

MDKitfox(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:49 am Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

Lynn,



Those same words stuck with me.  A friend of mine is developing a light jet kit and during flight test, the aircraft was cleared for takeoff with the usual admonition of 'caution wake turbulence'.  What the test pilot didn't know was a large (compared to his aircraft) DH-8 had taken off about  1 minute prior, yet the tower didn't hold him the required time.  We've all been there.  The winds were light and the light jet hit the wake, rolled 90 left, knife-edged into the runway and continued down the runway after cartwheeling a few times.  The only parts remaining were the cabin and engine.  The two guys inside opened the door and walked out unharmed.  My buddy had decided early on to build a strong composite cabin, and he was successful.  It took hours to clear the debris.  BTW - the cabin was on display at Oshkosh a couple of months later.  The inside was like new, but the bottom was scrapped up pretty good.  The pilot and engineer were at the show talking about the encounter.

 

 Rick Weiss

N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS

SkyStar S/N 1

Port Orange, FL



 



On Mar 28, 2009, at 6:17 AM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>



Thanks for the advice, Rick...I think what really drives your message home is the words "Clearing debris off the runway, i.e. the remaining parts of your Fox". That'll stick in my memory from here on out.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Mar 27, 2009, at 11:14 PM, Weiss Richard wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Lynn,



I'm no expert on wake turbulence, but I've been there.  It's real, it's dangerous, and should be given a wide berth.  I've been rolled 90 degrees while on approach.  This was from a 747 - I was in a CRJ-200.  We were going into JFK and were 6 miles behind the 74 at 3000 feet, he was at 4000.  The roll was quick and exhilarating.  I know the passengers didn't like it, heck, we didn't like it!    We also had a similar, but less exciting, experience at Atlanta behind a 757.   Bottom line, we were at the legal distance behind the other aircraft and still had the encounter.



Remember, the winds aloft are frequently different than those on the surface, all the calculations on the location of the wake based on the ground winds are estimates and remain  suspect.  The best defense is to wait out the max time, especially in low wind conditions where the wake can linger (yes, I believe it can be stationary on the runway for quite a while) or be blown across the runway at a leisurely pace.  I wouldn't go early unless you're absolutely convinced you know the wind environment.



If the other guys get impatient, that's their problem.  Clearing debris off the runway, i.e. the remaining parts of your Fox, is a lot longer delay for them and will likely ruin your day.  If they want to go, let them.  You may have the basis for some good hangar stories as you watch the ensuing aerobatic show.



Just my two cents.



Rick Weiss

N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS

SkyStar S/N 1

httpp;--> http://forums.matronics.comsp;         - List Contributionsp;                        &nbsphref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/cont================





	


=  [quote][b]

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:13 am Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

Lynn,

   I was holding short one time in a B737at Atlanta and saw a small aircraft  almost rolled into a ball when he taxied onto a runway for takeoff when just vacated by an airliner. I am sure some seats needed cleaning.    It is good no damage occured to your aircraft and realistically the time you waited should have been enough but the Kitfox is such a light aircraft.( a kite with wheels)

    I have timed my departure delay for one minute on my watch before departing behind a jumbo jet (irritating the controller sometimes as it is rather long) and still had a lot of wake vortices from the departing aircraft to deal with. A few times full aileron and appropriate rudder were called for. Theoretically, the vortices along the ground are the size of the aircraft wingspan and growing.

     Bet you don't do that again!

                                                           Dick Maddux

                                                           Fox 4

                                                           Pensacola,Fl

 Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 or less.

  [quote][b]

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:47 am Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

Lynn,

  You did exactly what you should have done. The only thing you could have done better is to wait longer. You absolutely should not take off sooner as you have a very good chance of going into the strongest engine thrust  and associated turbulence (this stuff stays on the runway for a while)

  Every year, before I retired, we had to attend training. Part of that training was wind shear and wake turbulence avoidance. They showed films of various jet aircraft with smoke generators at the wing tips and you could watch the pattern. I believe the flow was counter clockwise as the flow tends to flow toward the wing at the tips. The prevailing wind was a big factor as to were the dual vortices would go. They could stay on the runway or blow to either side. Seeing it visually, with the smoke, really helped. In any case the idea during take off was to climb above the departing aircraft's climb path if you could, or wait longer.

  Under different wind conditions you might not have experienced a problem. Waiting longer is always the best option. Using a smaller airport with smaller airplanes is even better!

   Santa Anna, Ca is a prime example of mixing big jets and general aviation aircraft. It was always a challenge landing there in an airliner (slam dunk to a short runway) and you really had to watch your engine thrust around the multiple small aircraft. I always saw "the little guys" (I am now one) pull to the side and wait anytime the heavier aircraft departed. They learned quick. Thrust and wing tip vortices will eat your lunch!

   Sorry about the long dissertation but I guess early in the morning and too much coffee does it. It's great to be retired! Sure am happy I fly for fun.

                                                           Dick Maddux

                                                           Fox 4

                                                           Pensacola,Fl  

 Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 or less.

  [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

When I once took off into a known thickness of fog, and got myself in  

"no visibility" conditions, I wrote in the logbook "Don't do this  

again".....I'll be making another such entry after yesterdays'  

encounter. Thanks for the report, Dick.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Mar 28, 2009, at 8:12 AM, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn,

   I was holding short one time in a B737at Atlanta and saw a small  

 aircraft  almost rolled into a ball when he taxied onto a runway  

 for takeoff when just vacated by an airliner. I am sure some seats  

 needed cleaning.    It is good no damage occured to your aircraft  

 and realistically the time you waited should have been enough but  

 the Kitfox is such a light aircraft.( a kite with wheels)

    I have timed my departure delay for one minute on my watch  

 before departing behind a jumbo jet (irritating the controller  

 sometimes as it is rather long) and still had a lot of wake  

 vortices from the departing aircraft to deal with. A few times full  

 aileron and appropriate rudder were called for. Theoretically, the  

 vortices along the ground are the size of the aircraft wingspan and  

 growing.

     Bet you don't do that again!

                                                           Dick Maddux

                                                           Fox 4

                                                           Pensacola,Fl



 Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or  

 less. _- 

 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

I hope I can always end a tale with "at the show talking about the  

encounter". Of course, better yet would be "no problems on today's  

flight" !



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

do not archive



On Mar 28, 2009, at 7:49 AM, Weiss Richard wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn,



 Those same words stuck with me.  A friend of mine is developing a  

 light jet kit and during flight test, the aircraft was cleared for  

 takeoff with the usual admonition of 'caution wake turbulence'.   

 What the test pilot didn't know was a large (compared to his  

 aircraft) DH-8 had taken off about  1 minute prior, yet the tower  

 didn't hold him the required time.  We've all been there.  The  

 winds were light and the light jet hit the wake, rolled 90 left,  

 knife-edged into the runway and continued down the runway after  

 cartwheeling a few times.  The only parts remaining were the cabin  

 and engine.  The two guys inside opened the door and walked out  

 unharmed.  My buddy had decided early on to build a strong  

 composite cabin, and he was successful.  It took hours to clear the  

 debris.  BTW - the cabin was on display at Oshkosh a couple of  

 months later.  The inside was like new, but the bottom was scrapped  

 up pretty good.  The pilot and engineer were at the show talking  

 about the encounter.



 Rick Weiss

 N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS

 SkyStar S/N 1

 Port Orange, FL





 On Mar 28, 2009, at 6:17 AM, Lynn Matteson wrote:



> 

>

> Thanks for the advice, Rick...I think what really drives your  

> message home is the words "Clearing debris off the runway, i.e.  

> the remaining parts of your Fox". That'll stick in my memory from  

> here on out.

>

> Lynn Matteson

> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 618.4 hrs

> Sensenich 62x46

> Electroair direct-fire ignition system

> Status: flying

>

>

> On Mar 27, 2009, at 11:14 PM, Weiss Richard wrote:

>

>> Lynn,

>>

>> I'm no expert on wake turbulence, but I've been there.  It's  

>> real, it's dangerous, and should be given a wide berth.  I've  

>> been rolled 90 degrees while on approach.  This was from a 747 -  

>> I was in a CRJ-200.  We were going into JFK and were 6 miles  

>> behind the 74 at 3000 feet, he was at 4000.  The roll was quick  

>> and exhilarating.  I know the passengers didn't like it, heck, we  

>> didn't like it!    We also had a similar, but less exciting,  

>> experience at Atlanta behind a 757.   Bottom line, we were at the  

>> legal distance behind the other aircraft and still had the  

>> encounter.

>>

>> Remember, the winds aloft are frequently different than those on  

>> the surface, all the calculations on the location of the wake  

>> based on the ground winds are estimates and remain  suspect.  The  

>> best defense is to wait out the max time, especially in low wind  

>> conditions where the wake can linger (yes, I believe it can be  

>> stationary on the runway for quite a while) or be blown across  

>> the runway at a leisurely pace.  I wouldn't go early unless  

>> you're absolutely convinced you know the wind environment.

>>

>> If the other guys get impatient, that's their problem.  Clearing  

>> debris off the runway, i.e. the remaining parts of your Fox, is a  

>> lot longer delay for them and will likely ruin your day.  If they  

>> want to go, let them.  You may have the basis for some good  

>> hangar stories as you watch the ensuing aerobatic show.

>>

>> Just my two cents.

>>

>> Rick Weiss

>> N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS

>> SkyStar S/N 1

>> httpp;--> http://forums.matronics.comsp;         - List  

>> Contributionsp;                        &nbsphref="http:// 

>> www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ 

>> cont================

>>

>>

>>



 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

peteohms

Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 224
Location: Leander, TX

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:57 pm Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

Even wake turulence behind small planes can get you upset  in a light sport.  I was with an instructor getting checked out in a Sky  Ranger and landing behind a T-34 single engined navy trainer, not really that  close.  The Sky Ranger banked what seemed like 60 degrees.  We were  100'+ on final but recovered ok.

  

 Pete

  

   [quote][b]

_________________
Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:42 am Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

Yes, now that you mention it, I've felt it behind smaller planes at  

altitude, too. I've even run into my own during 360° turns. But this  

one at low altitude really got my attention, probably because of the  

close proximity to the ground, and because the other plane was so far  

away...but not far enough as it turned out.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 622.1 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Mar 28, 2009, at 6:55 PM, Pete Christensen wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Even wake turulence behind small planes can get you upset in a  

 light sport.  I was with an instructor getting checked out in a Sky  

 Ranger and landing behind a T-34 single engined navy trainer, not  

 really that close.  The Sky Ranger banked what seemed like 60  

 degrees.  We were 100'+ on final but recovered ok.



 Pete



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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:28 am Post subject: Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

Your vortices spiral out and down from your tips. 



A cool experiment ,   in early am with light fog and no wind   about 4 to 10 feet thick , fly along a field or grass runway so you are just in the fog at cruise or faster and yank her back.    Look out your back window or turn and look at what you just did.   



That would make a neat video.  Who will be first to post it ?>

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Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:47 am Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

 	  Quote: 	
		   Your vortices spiral out and down from your tips. 


	


    Are you pretty sure about that?  I've always seen it the opposite.



Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:08 am Post subject: Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

Deke, 

What I meant to say ,  I will make it clear 



they rotate inwards but move outwards from the wingtips and down wards



I can remember during IFR training being behind a heavy in a 182 or 172 under the hood at night and rolling past 90s degrees a few miles  behind.



do  you needs a  pic ? 

Dave

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:11 am Post subject: Re: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=97

pic if you not understand correctly

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:40 am Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

Nope.



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 do  you needs a  pic ? 

 

 

 Dave

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:51 am Post subject: Wake Turbulence in a Kitfox

"Whenever an airplane generates lift, air spills over the wingtips  

from the high pressure areas below the wings to the low pressure  

areas above them."

(Private Pilot Manual....Jeppersen/Sanderson)

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 622.1 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Mar 30, 2009, at 7:46 AM, fox5flyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>



> Your vortices spiral out and down from your tips.



    Are you pretty sure about that?  I've always seen it the opposite.



 Deke Morisse

 Mikado Michigan

 S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

 "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but  

 progress."

 - Joseph Joubert

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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