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jkuehn(at)mountaintime.my
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:43 am Post subject: Cell phone

I have a homebuilt Sky Ranger airplane with a Softcomm intercom, and I 

am trying to find a way to connect a cell phone into the intercom.  I 

tried using an earphone jack plugged into the record output and music 

input, but this did not work.  Does anyone have a solution, or does 

anyone know why this does not work? Thanks



Jack

jdubner(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:44 am Post subject: Cell phone

Jack,



I suspect the problem is the impedance level.  Another way of saying

this is that the voltage (but not power) level of the cellphone is too

low to drive the intercom's music input.  I added a tiny 8-ohm to

1000-ohm transformer to step up the audio level when I connected my MP3

player's headphone output to the music input of my Softcomm ATC-2P with

good results.  (The 8-ohm winding is connected to the MP3 player of

course).  Without the transformer the audio level was too low to be useful.)



Also, I'd encourage you to telephone Softcomm in Chandler, AZ.  On the

two occasions I've dealt with them, I've found their service to be

outstanding.



--

Joe



Long-EZ 821RP

Lewiston, ID

On 29-Mar-06 03:35 Jack Kuehn wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I have a homebuilt Sky Ranger airplane with a Softcomm intercom, and I 

 am trying to find a way to connect a cell phone into the intercom.  I 

 tried using an earphone jack plugged into the record output and music 

 input, but this did not work.  Does anyone have a solution, or does 

 anyone know why this does not work? Thanks

 

 Jack

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:53 am Post subject: Cell phone

Jack Kuehn wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I have a homebuilt Sky Ranger airplane with a Softcomm intercom, and I 

 am trying to find a way to connect a cell phone into the intercom.  I 

 tried using an earphone jack plugged into the record output and music 

 input, but this did not work.  Does anyone have a solution, or does 

 anyone know why this does not work? Thanks


	


There is a basic problem here. Your cellphone is a full-duplex device in 

that it receives and transmits at the same time. If you connect a 

headphone output to the input of your cellphone and the earphone output 

of your cellphone to the music input on your intercom, you have set up a 

feedback path. Everything that your cellphone receives will be sent 

right back out your cellphone again. You need to somehow isolate the 

receive audio from getting back into the mic input on the cellphone.



There are cellphone adapters that put the cellphone between your headset 

and the rest of the airplane's audio system. These seem to work quite 

well. PS Engineering also has cellphone support in their audio panel. 

This is probably the most elegant (and expensive) solution.



Probably the simplest solution is to just wire your audio panel so that 

the cell phone appears as another comm radio. You would have to use it 

half-duplex and set it up so that PTT activates the mic audio to the 

cell phone and mutes the receive audio from the cell phone. A DPDT relay 

driven by the PTT line that uses one set of NC contacts to close the 

path for the receive audio and the other set of NO contact to close the 

path for the transmit audio would make this work just fine.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

khurst(at)taroom.qld.gov.
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:36 pm Post subject: Cell phone

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have a homebuilt Sky Ranger airplane with a Softcomm intercom, and I


	


am trying to find a way to connect a cell phone into the intercom. 



Hello Jack,



May I suggest this as a definitive answer to your problem.



http://www.mcp.com.au/xcom760/build1509/main-page.html



Click on Accessories then look at the 3rd item down.



I bought one and gave it to one of my sons who is flying regularly in a

C206.  When he rings me, I cannot tell whether is in the aircraft or

not.  Works incredibly well and I highly recommend it.



Regards

Kingsley in Oz.

webfootboat(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: Cell phone

Excuse me for jumping in here.  I have a ps8000sr that includes a cell phone

connection which I have not been able to try simply because it requires a

cord with a 2.5 mm connection of each end (stereo I believe) and I have not

been able to find a cable anywhere.  Any suggestions?

Wayne



--

BigD(at)DaveMorris.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject: Cell phone

Unless I'm mistaken, I believe it is still against FCC regulations 

(47CFR 22.925) to operate a cellular phone onboard an aircraft that 

is in the air.  This is because the signal will be picked up by 

multiple cell towers at the same time and will lock out a significant 

amount of bandwidth.



See 

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr22.925.htm



Dave Morris

At 05:35 AM 3/29/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net>



I have a homebuilt Sky Ranger airplane with a Softcomm intercom, and I

am trying to find a way to connect a cell phone into the intercom.  I

tried using an earphone jack plugged into the record output and music

input, but this did not work.  Does anyone have a solution, or does

anyone know why this does not work? Thanks



Jack

LarryRosen

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 415
Location: Medford, NJ

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:54 pm Post subject: Cell phone

But it does not prohibit the use of a cell phone while on the ground 

with the engine running.  Very useful when at an airport with out a 

tower trying to get a clearance.



Larry



Dave Morris "BigD" wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Unless I'm mistaken, I believe it is still against FCC regulations 

(47CFR 22.925) to operate a cellular phone onboard an aircraft that 

is in the air.  This is because the signal will be picked up by 

multiple cell towers at the same time and will lock out a significant 

amount of bandwidth.



See 

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr22.925.htm



Dave Morris

_________________
Larry Rosen
#40356
N205EN (reserved)
<http>

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: Cell phone

Dave Morris "BigD" wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Unless I'm mistaken, I believe it is still against FCC regulations 

 (47CFR 22.925) to operate a cellular phone onboard an aircraft that 

 is in the air.  This is because the signal will be picked up by 

 multiple cell towers at the same time and will lock out a significant 

 amount of bandwidth.


	


That is indeed the case for AMPS phones (the old analog cell-phone 

technology). The newer digital PCS phones operate under a different set 

of rules. These phones, CDMA, TDMA, GSM, etc., may be used in-flight. 

There are no FCC limitations on that. The FAA limitation (part 91 

operations) is that the pilot must determine that the operation of the 

phone does not present a hazard to aircraft operation or navigation.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

webfootboat(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:01 pm Post subject: Cell phone

It is a good way to close your flight plan while taxing to parking however.

Wayne



--

jkuehn(at)mountaintime.my
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: Cell phone

Yes of course, did anyone suggest using cell phones in the air?  It's 

for those last minute calls to Flight Service, family, and for off 

airport communication while waiting in line for departure.  It is for 

that reason I can't justify spending $300 for a cell phone patch. 



Jack



Dave Morris "BigD" wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Unless I'm mistaken, I believe it is still against FCC regulations 

(47CFR 22.925) to operate a cellular phone onboard an aircraft that 

is in the air.  This is because the signal will be picked up by 

multiple cell towers at the same time and will lock out a significant 

amount of bandwidth.



See 

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr22.925.htm



Dave Morris

At 05:35 AM 3/29/2006, you wrote:

  



>

><jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net>

>

>I have a homebuilt Sky Ranger airplane with a Softcomm intercom, and I

>am trying to find a way to connect a cell phone into the intercom.  I

>tried using an earphone jack plugged into the record output and music

>input, but this did not work.  Does anyone have a solution, or does

>anyone know why this does not work? Thanks

>

>Jack

>

>

>    

>

 

 

 



  




	


-- 

Jack Kuehn

5565 Brady Lane

Lolo, MT 59847



(406) 273-6801

(406) 546-1086 (cell)

(406) 273-2563 (fax)

jcorner(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: Cell phone

Now that we have established the need for a cheap solution to this  

problem I offer the following



$10-$20 solution,



Purchase a hands free earphone-mic with the flex connection between  

ear and mike elements.



Place both elements (ear and mike) in the ear cup of your head set,   

ANR probably works best.



I sometimes place the ear element in my ear under the headset, seems  

to work a little better.



Talk to your cell phone party over the intercom.  The drawback is  

that your cell phone party



will hear your take-off clearance and refuse to talk to you any more.



Try it ---- you'll like it!



Jim

On Mar 29, 2006, at 7:13 PM, Jack Kuehn wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net>



 Yes of course, did anyone suggest using cell phones in the air?  It's

 for those last minute calls to Flight Service, family, and for off

 airport communication while waiting in line for departure.  It is for

 that reason I can't justify spending $300 for a cell phone patch.



 Jack



 Dave Morris "BigD" wrote:



> 

> <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com>

>

> Unless I'm mistaken, I believe it is still against FCC regulations

> (47CFR 22.925) to operate a cellular phone onboard an aircraft that

> is in the air.  This is because the signal will be picked up by

> multiple cell towers at the same time and will lock out a significant

> amount of bandwidth.

>

> See

> http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/ 

> edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr22.925.htm

>

> Dave Morris

> At 05:35 AM 3/29/2006, you wrote:

>> 

>> <jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net>

>>

>> I have a homebuilt Sky Ranger airplane with a Softcomm intercom,  

>> and I

>> am trying to find a way to connect a cell phone into the  

>> intercom.  I

>> tried using an earphone jack plugged into the record output and  

>> music

>> input, but this did not work.  Does anyone have a solution, or does

>> anyone know why this does not work? Thanks

>>

>> Jack

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>



 -- 

 Jack Kuehn

 5565 Brady Lane

 Lolo, MT 59847



 (406) 273-6801

 (406) 546-1086 (cell)

 (406) 273-2563 (fax)

jkuehn(at)mountaintime.my
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject: Cell phone

WOW I am speechless at the simplicity of this!!  Thank you!!  I'll try 

it ASAP! 



Jack



Jim Corner wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Now that we have established the need for a cheap solution to this  

problem I offer the following



$10-$20 solution,



Purchase a hands free earphone-mic with the flex connection between  

ear and mike elements.



Place both elements (ear and mike) in the ear cup of your head set,   

ANR probably works best.



I sometimes place the ear element in my ear under the headset, seems  

to work a little better.



Talk to your cell phone party over the intercom.  The drawback is  

that your cell phone party



will hear your take-off clearance and refuse to talk to you any more.



Try it ---- you'll like it!



Jim

On Mar 29, 2006, at 7:13 PM, Jack Kuehn wrote:



  



>

><jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net>

>

>Yes of course, did anyone suggest using cell phones in the air?  It's

>for those last minute calls to Flight Service, family, and for off

>airport communication while waiting in line for departure.  It is for

>that reason I can't justify spending $300 for a cell phone patch.

>

>Jack

>

>Dave Morris "BigD" wrote:

>

>    

>

>>

>><BigD(at)DaveMorris.com>

>>

>>Unless I'm mistaken, I believe it is still against FCC regulations

>>(47CFR 22.925) to operate a cellular phone onboard an aircraft that

>>is in the air.  This is because the signal will be picked up by

>>multiple cell towers at the same time and will lock out a significant

>>amount of bandwidth.

>>

>>See

>>http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/ 

>>edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr22.925.htm

>>

>>Dave Morris

>>

>>

>>At 05:35 AM 3/29/2006, you wrote:

>>

>>

>>      

>>

>>>

>>><jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net>

>>>

>>>I have a homebuilt Sky Ranger airplane with a Softcomm intercom,  

>>>and I

>>>am trying to find a way to connect a cell phone into the  

>>>intercom.  I

>>>tried using an earphone jack plugged into the record output and  

>>>music

>>>input, but this did not work.  Does anyone have a solution, or does

>>>anyone know why this does not work? Thanks

>>>

>>>Jack

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>        

>>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>      

>>

>-- 

>Jack Kuehn

>5565 Brady Lane

>Lolo, MT 59847

>

>(406) 273-6801

>(406) 546-1086 (cell)

>(406) 273-2563 (fax)

>

>

>

>    

>



 

 

 



  




	


-- 

Jack Kuehn

5565 Brady Lane

Lolo, MT 59847



(406) 273-6801

(406) 546-1086 (cell)

(406) 273-2563 (fax)

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:33 pm Post subject: Cell phone

Wayne,

I had the same issue until I found the cable.  PS-Eng sells them but

for a super high price.  I bought this one, from here, and it works

great.



http://www.midi-classics.com/c/c23895.htm



Maker: Hosa Technology

Code: CMM-403



That should be some help for you....they're really cheap.

To use this one, you will need to buy a 2.5mm jack for the input.

If you wired a 3.5mm jack, you'll need a 2.5mm to 3.5mm male cable,

which I haven't shopped for.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying



PS, that PS8000 is one hot intercom.  I can't believe how

great it functions in many ways!

Wayne Reese wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Excuse me for jumping in here.  I have a ps8000sr that includes a cell phone

 connection which I have not been able to try simply because it requires a

 cord with a 2.5 mm connection of each end (stereo I believe) and I have not

 been able to find a cable anywhere.  Any suggestions?

 Wayne

rd2(at)evenlink.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:35 am Post subject: Cell phone

You are not mistaken, it is against FCC regs. Although, I haven't yet heard

of a case when the FCC penalized someone for doing so. Maybe because it

happens rarely and mostly in emergencies (9/11 being the most notable

example).

Sometimes it is even impossible to get into the network from the air in

areas where there is no signal problem on the ground.

A cell phone can be very usefull on the ground, though, for getting a

clearance or filing, or calling someone when taxiing. With the engine

running using a headset is very convemient. I use a Lightspeed ANR headset

("X-country") that has an input for cell phone (3.5 mm on the headset side,

2.5 mm on the cell phone side). Same input is used for feeding high quality

stereo audio (auto soft-muted) to the headphones (intercom input can still

be mono). 

It is a less expensive solution and the audio is usually of higher quality

than using add-on devices.



Rumen

do not archive



_____________________Original message __________________________

                  (received from Dave Morris \"BigD\"; Date: 07:36 PM

3/29/2006 -0600)


<BigD(at)DaveMorris.com>



Unless I'm mistaken, I believe it is still against FCC regulations 

(47CFR 22.925) to operate a cellular phone onboard an aircraft that 

is in the air.  This is because the signal will be picked up by 

multiple cell towers at the same time and will lock out a significant 

amount of bandwidth.



See 

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov

/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr22.925.htm



Dave Morris

At 05:35 AM 3/29/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net>



I have a homebuilt Sky Ranger airplane with a Softcomm intercom, and I

am trying to find a way to connect a cell phone into the intercom.  I

tried using an earphone jack plugged into the record output and music

input, but this did not work.  Does anyone have a solution, or does

anyone know why this does not work? Thanks



Jack

rd2(at)evenlink.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:42 am Post subject: Cell phone

Brian, FAA rules aside, are you sure it is ok with the FCC to use digital

cell phones in the air? If so, this is very usefull info.



Rumen

do not archive



_____________________Original message __________________________

                  (received from Brian Lloyd; Date: 05:56 PM 3/29/2006

-0800)




Dave Morris "BigD" wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<BigD(at)DaveMorris.com>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Unless I'm mistaken, I believe it is still against FCC regulations 

 (47CFR 22.925) to operate a cellular phone onboard an aircraft that 

 is in the air.  This is because the signal will be picked up by 

 multiple cell towers at the same time and will lock out a significant 

 amount of bandwidth.


	


That is indeed the case for AMPS phones (the old analog cell-phone 

technology). The newer digital PCS phones operate under a different set 

of rules. These phones, CDMA, TDMA, GSM, etc., may be used in-flight. 

There are no FCC limitations on that. The FAA limitation (part 91 

operations) is that the pilot must determine that the operation of the 

phone does not present a hazard to aircraft operation or navigation.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

BigD(at)DaveMorris.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:53 am Post subject: Cell phone

Brian you are probably right.  I can't seem to find any limitations 

in the PCS part of the regulations, other than for "antenna height", 

and that seems to apply to ground stations.

Dave

At 07:56 PM 3/29/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

Dave Morris "BigD" wrote:

 > 

 <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com>

 >

 > Unless I'm mistaken, I believe it is still against FCC regulations

 > (47CFR 22.925) to operate a cellular phone onboard an aircraft that

 > is in the air.  This is because the signal will be picked up by

 > multiple cell towers at the same time and will lock out a significant

 > amount of bandwidth.

That is indeed the case for AMPS phones (the old analog cell-phone

technology). The newer digital PCS phones operate under a different set

of rules. These phones, CDMA, TDMA, GSM, etc., may be used in-flight.

There are no FCC limitations on that. The FAA limitation (part 91

operations) is that the pilot must determine that the operation of the

phone does not present a hazard to aircraft operation or navigation.

--

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

webfootboat(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:01 am Post subject: Cell phone

Thanks, just ordered it.

Wayne



--

jm(at)10squaredcorp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:13 am Post subject: Cell phone

Cell tower antennas point toward the ground where the majority of the users 

can be found, so I'm not surprised that reception might be worse in the air 

even with the LOS benefit.

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 08:29:33 -0500, rd2 wrote

 	  Quote: 	

 You are not mistaken, it is against FCC regs. Although, I haven't 

 yet heard of a case when the FCC penalized someone for doing so. 

 Maybe because it happens rarely and mostly in emergencies (9/11 

 being the most notable example). Sometimes it is even impossible to 

 get into the network from the air in areas where there is no signal 

 problem on the ground. A cell phone can be very usefull on the 

 ground, though, for getting a clearance or filing, or calling 

 someone when taxiing. With the engine running using a headset is 

 very convemient. I use a Lightspeed ANR headset

 ("X-country") that has an input for cell phone (3.5 mm on the 

 headset side,

 2.5 mm on the cell phone side). Same input is used for feeding high quality

 stereo audio (auto soft-muted) to the headphones (intercom input can 

 still be mono). It is a less expensive solution and the audio is 

 usually of higher quality than using add-on devices.

 Rumen

 do not archive

 _____________________Original message __________________________

                   (received from Dave Morris \"BigD\"; Date: 07:36 PM

 3/29/2006 -0600)

 <BigD(at)DaveMorris.com>

 Unless I'm mistaken, I believe it is still against FCC regulations 

 (47CFR 22.925) to operate a cellular phone onboard an aircraft that 

 is in the air.  This is because the signal will be picked up by 

 multiple cell towers at the same time and will lock out a 

 significant amount of bandwidth.

 See 

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov

 	  Quote: 	
		   /cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr22.925.htm

 Dave Morris

 At 05:35 AM 3/29/2006, you wrote:

 >

 ><jkuehn(at)mountaintime.myrf.net>

 >

 >I have a homebuilt Sky Ranger airplane with a Softcomm intercom, and I

 >am trying to find a way to connect a cell phone into the intercom.  I

 >tried using an earphone jack plugged into the record output and music

 >input, but this did not work.  Does anyone have a solution, or does

 >anyone know why this does not work? Thanks

 >

 >Jack

 >

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: Cell phone

rd2(at)evenlink.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 You are not mistaken, it is against FCC regs. 


	


As I said in earlier messages, the use of *AMPS* cellphones (the older 

analog phones that transmit using narrow-band FM in the 800MHz band) in 

an airplane in the air is prohibited by the FCC. It is *NOT* against FCC 

regs to use PCS phones (digital phones such as CDMA, TDMA, and GSM) 

while in flight. As far as the FCC is concerned AMPS and PCS are 

completely different services and operate under completely different rules.

-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:20 am Post subject: Cell phone

Dave Morris "BigD" wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Brian you are probably right.  I can't seem to find any limitations 

 in the PCS part of the regulations, other than for "antenna height", 

 and that seems to apply to ground stations.


	


One thing to considers: many phone are "dual-band", i.e. they can 

operate both PCS *and* AMPS. Often when your phone roams it is switching 

to AMPS mode. This would be against FCC regs if you let this happen 

while flying. If you wish to use your PCS phone in your plane you need 

to go into the phone's settings and disable AMPS mode. I just lock mine 

to my home provider and don't let it roam. That solves the problem and 

prevents "surprise" roaming charges.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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