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heisan

Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 22

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:19 pm Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

I am rapidly heading towards doing the electrical system on my project.



Since having a flap fuse blow during a go-around, not being able to climb away until I replaced the fuse, I have decided that I would not like to use standard glass fuses.  The holders are fiddly, and it is difficult to determine the rating.



I would like to use automotive blade fuses.  It is easy to visually identify a blown fuse, easy to replace, and they are colour coded, so ratings are a snap.



Are there any disadvantages to using them, or any reasons not to use them?



Thanks,

Justin

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:52 pm Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

Nope and just about every experimantal in the sky is using blade fuses and on multi fuse bases.



They work great..You can eve get indicating fuses that light up once they have blown..No real purpose to those however.



Frank

RV7a 



--

stein(at)steinair.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:06 pm Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

That is really what you should be using (is ATO blade type fuses) over the

glass fuses.  From our experience, using glass fuses has many negatives and

they aren't something we'd really recommend for airplanes anymore.



One big benefit to the blad fuses is now you can get them with tiny LED's in

them that illuminate when the fuse "blows", basicacally you can see at a

glance if the fuse blow because it'll be lighted.



Cheers,

Stein



[quote]--

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:36 pm Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

I am using blade fuses in my RV10 project but I can't speak to 

advantages/disadvantages other than cost when compared to breakers.  I 

think you will find lot's of support here for these fuses and fuses in 

general.



However, I had the same thought about my flaps.  As a result, I will 

have 4 pullable breakers in my Z-14

1) Flaps (so they can be reset)

2) Autopilot controllers and servo (as an emergency off switch)

3) LR3C Alternator Regulator number 1

4) LR3C " "  number 2



I've built the panel,  wired the fuse panel, and wired the breakers.  So 

far, so good with the plan.



Bill Watson



heisan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I am rapidly heading towards doing the electrical system on my project.



 Since having a flap fuse blow during a go-around, not being able to climb away until I replaced the fuse, I have decided that I would not like to use standard glass fuses.  The holders are fiddly, and it is difficult to determine the rating.



 I would like to use automotive blade fuses.  It is easy to visually identify a blown fuse, easy to replace, and they are colour coded, so ratings are a snap.



 Are there any disadvantages to using them, or any reasons not to use them?



 Thanks,

 Justin





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 52841#252841

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:07 pm Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

On 13 Jul 2009, at 17:19, heisan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 I am rapidly heading towards doing the electrical system on my  

 project.



 Since having a flap fuse blow during a go-around, not being able to  

 climb away until I replaced the fuse, I have decided that I would  

 not like to use standard glass fuses.  The holders are fiddly, and  

 it is difficult to determine the rating.


	


You really ought to limit the full flap angle such that you can safely  

do a go-around with flaps down, if needed, as there are a whole bunch  

of other reasons why you could be unable to retract them someday -  

e.g. flap motor failure, flap switch failure, ground wire failure,  

shorted wiring, etc.



The type of wire over current protection to use should be considered  

independently from the flap failure on go around case.



--

Kevin Horton (Grounded)

RV-8 (Flight Test Phase)

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:51 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

The type of wire over current protection to use should be considered

independently from the flap failure on go around case.


	


   Absolutely! Over the years I've received many e-mails

   where the builder was concerned about being able to

   "reset" a tripped current protection while citing some

   personal experience or perhaps a dark-n-stormy-night

   story where resetting breakers was part of the script.



   I'll refer new readers to the following discussions

   from years past . . .



http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fuseorcb.html



http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fusvbkr2.html



http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/failtoll.pdf



   The short answer to the fuses vs. breakers question

   asks the builder to consider that there are far

   more events that cause a system to stop working

   that DO NOT trip the circuit protection than events

   that DO trip the circuit protection.



   Over-current trips are for protection of the

   airframe from smoke and fire caused by faulted wires.

   The properly sized circuit protection will never

   nuisance trip. I.e., when it DOES trip, that

   system is telling you that it's out of the

   ball game. It's time to call in the relief

   pitcher. Inclusion of pilot resetable circuit

   protection with any notions of increasing

   system reliability is wishful thinking.



   In the OBAM aviation world we can FIX a nuisance

   tripping system by up-sizing the protection and

   wire size before the next flight. In the TC

   aircraft world, you need to get permission

   and then spend a lot of money to do it.

   Isn't that one of several reasons we're all

   here talking about it on the List?





        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

heisan

Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 22

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:06 am Post subject: Re: Automotive blade fuses?

Thanks everybody.



When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers.  Two A&Ps I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is difficult to make the pretty!



Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use.



Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders?  Options here are few and far between.



Thanks,

Justin

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:38 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

At 04:59 PM 7/13/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



That is really what you should be using (is ATO blade type fuses) over the

glass fuses.  From our experience, using glass fuses has many negatives and

they aren't something we'd really recommend for airplanes anymore.


	


   Absolutely! These have fragile internal connections at

   the ends of the fusible links . . . they also used large

   area, low pressure connections in their holders. Not

   gas-tight.



 	  Quote: 	
		  One big benefit to the blade fuses is now you can get them with tiny LED's in

them that illuminate when the fuse "blows", basicacally you can see at a

glance if the fuse blow because it'll be lighted.


	


   . . . assuming that circuit is "turned on". Fuse

   popping in a properly sized protection scheme is

   exceedingly rare. How many times have any of us

   replaced fuses in our cars over the past 20 years?



   I've had two such experiences. Both involved fuses

   that were blown for cause . . . i.e. something

   wrong in the protected system. My wife's cars

   have yet to present such opportunities. If you

   deduce that ANY system in your airplane is necessary

   for comfortable termination of flight, then one

   is well advised to have a plan-b for any and

   all such systems. I.e., being able to replace

   fuses or re-set breakers is NOT a plan.

        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

jimw_btg(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:40 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

Justin



There are several but I have my best luck with Waytek, Inc. very good quality and price, also they have the blade fuses with "SMART FUSE" indicator.  Happy building.  www.wyatekwire.com   Take Care.



Jim Wickert

Vision #159 CL 4.5

"Vision" some will have some will not.



--

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:43 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

Justin,



B&C has several fuse holders and fuse sets available:



http://www.bandc.biz/index.aspx



As does SteinAir:



http://www.steinair.com/



And probably other good dealers as well.



Bob Borger



 

On Tuesday, July 14, 2009, at 08:06AM, "heisan" <justin(at)expertron.co.za> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Thanks everybody.



When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers.  Two A&Ps I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is difficult to make the pretty!



Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use.



Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders?  Options here are few and far between.



Thanks,

Justin





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 52936#252936

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:13 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

heisan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders?  Options here are few and far between.



 Thanks,

 Justin



   

http://cgi.ebay.com/10-Way-Blade-Fuse-Box-Holder-lucar-terminals_W0QQitemZ120430551339QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item1c0a38612b&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177&_trkparms=|293%3A1|294%3A50
	




Generally, search eBay for "ATC fuse holder".



-- 



http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:13 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

I got mine from B&C.  Their inventory is limited to  exactly what you 

need.  I'm sure with some effort, everything can be found elsewhere and 

found cheaper perhaps.

http://www.bandcspecialty.com/

heisan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks everybody.



 When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers.  Two A&Ps I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is difficult to make the pretty!



 Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use.



 Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders?  Options here are few and far between.



 Thanks,

 Justin





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 52936#252936

peterlaurence6(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:44 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

Try http://www.mihdirect.biz/



Peter



I got mine from B&C.  Their inventory is limited to  exactly what you 

need.  I'm sure with some effort, everything can be found elsewhere and 

found cheaper perhaps.

http://www.bandcspecialty.com/

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:45 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

I've adopted the fuse approach in my RV10 project with 2 fuse holders in 

the passenger's foot well.

I did put a resettable breaker in for the flaps.  My thinking at the 

timee was  that the flap motor could be overpowered by actuation at 

excessive speeds.  Of course, if the plane is flown properly, the whole 

issue is avoided.  And failure in such a circumstance would probably 

result in the flaps failing  in a very flyable condition.  So I assume 

it's probably unnecessary.  It was just the only scenario I could come 

up with for a resettable breaker (I have 3 others - AP as an emergency 

disconnect, and 2 for the LR3Cs)

2 days ago, I think I got  a lesson in what is meant by "The properly 

sized circuit protection will never  nuisance trip".  During some 

testing in the shop, I left my panel powered on an hour or so.  When I 

returned, one display was dark.  I check the fuse and found it had 

blown.  A few minutes later, the other 2 displays re-booted and 

eventually shut themselves down.  What happened?

Turns out that 1 of my batteries (Odyssesy 680s) had lost a cell.  I 

hadn't expected that but in retrospect, the battery had been abused.  

It's 2 years old and  it's been left for long periods of time at less 

than full charge.  I think the last straw may be hooking up the 

'always-on' circuits for the 3 display unit clocks (GRT HX) and 

continuing an irregular charging schedule.

While the GRT displays will run at less than 14 or 12 volts, the current 

goes up as the voltage drops.  It appears that with a failed cell, the 

voltage was down to 10.5 volts or less and the current increased to a 

point that blew the 3 amp blade fuse.  Cautiously, I put a 2 amp fuse in 

the holder and that blew immediately.

Later, I used my crossfeed switch on my Z14 configuration and the panel 

operated normally.  It was arguably a nuisance trip.

What I take away from this is that even though the GRT manuals indicate 

that at least a 2 amp fuse is required with a 5 amp max fuse for the 

circuit, the best solution would be to size the fuse to protect the wire 

(5 for awg20, 10 for awg 1.  The GRT manuals also state that the units 

are internally protected against internal faults which suggests that the 

external fuse is only in place to protect the circuit.

What I also take away is that if I had a battery cell failure in the 

air, I would be very busy with a display failed by an unnecessarily 

blown fuse.  Even with a Z14 with dual busses and batteries.  Robust  

sizing for wire protection would limit failures to internal unit faults 

which takes the whole fuse box out of the equation.

My plan is to strictly size the fuses for wire protection so I can take 

full advantage of the Z14's redundancy.

List, what do you think?

Thanks Bob,

Bill Watson

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

>

> The type of wire over current protection to use should be considered

> independently from the flap failure on go around case.

   Absolutely! Over the years I've received many e-mails

   where the builder was concerned about being able to

   "reset" a tripped current protection while citing some

   personal experience or perhaps a dark-n-stormy-night

   story where resetting breakers was part of the script.

   I'll refer new readers to the following discussions

   from years past . . .

 http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fuseorcb.html

 http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fusvbkr2.html

 http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/failtoll.pdf

   The short answer to the fuses vs. breakers question

   asks the builder to consider that there are far

   more events that cause a system to stop working

   that DO NOT trip the circuit protection than events

   that DO trip the circuit protection.

   Over-current trips are for protection of the

   airframe from smoke and fire caused by faulted wires.

   The properly sized circuit protection will never

   nuisance trip. I.e., when it DOES trip, that

   system is telling you that it's out of the

   ball game. It's time to call in the relief

   pitcher. Inclusion of pilot resetable circuit

   protection with any notions of increasing

   system reliability is wishful thinking.

   In the OBAM aviation world we can FIX a nuisance

   tripping system by up-sizing the protection and

   wire size before the next flight. In the TC

   aircraft world, you need to get permission

   and then spend a lot of money to do it.

   Isn't that one of several reasons we're all

   here talking about it on the List?

        Bob . . .

         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

Yup..Stein air and there are many automotive outlets that have them..Try summit racing or Jc whitney etc.,,I even found my local autozone have them.



There are some wonderful A&P's around but you have to remember that they are taught that everything that is FAA mandated is good and anything designed after 1940 is BAAAAD..thats why we still have vacuum pumps on cessna's which give about the same odds for survival in IMC as playing Russian roulette...Ok slight exageration maybe..



Frank RV7a electrically dependant, no mechanical fuel pump, no mags and flys in IMC! 



--

peterlaurence6(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

Is there such a thing as a slo blow ATO fuse?

Peter

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

Justin,



Pegasus offers the same item as B & C at a competitive cost. As much of

the OBAM stuff is derived from auto racing they also sell a lot of other

things you'll need to make that bird fly. They're stock is high quality

and they normally ship the same day.



http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=4402

Glenn



--

thorps18(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

A couple good sources for electrical supplies:



http://www.bandc.biz/electricalsupplies.aspx



http://www.steinair.com/store.htm

 

On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 6:06 AM, heisan <justin(at)expertron.co.za (justin(at)expertron.co.za)> wrote:

[quote] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "heisan" <justin(at)expertron.co.za (justin(at)expertron.co.za)>

 

 Thanks everybody.

 

 When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers.  Two A&Ps I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is difficult to make the pretty!

 

 Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use.

 

 Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders?  Options here are few and far between.

 

 Thanks,

 Justin

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252936#252936

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 [b]

rv8iator

Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 145
Location: Newberg, OR

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

My personal favorite...

http://tinyurl.com/nnmgg5



This is the Bussman 20 circuit/ two buss panel mount ATC/ATO fuse block.



Stienair and BandC have the surface mount styles for the same fuses.



Chris Stone

RV-8

--

_________________
C. Stone (RV8iator)

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:39 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses?

At 10:44 AM 7/14/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "plaurence" <peterlaurence6(at)gmail.com>



 Is there such a thing as a slo blow ATO fuse? 	


   No. When you need slow-blow characteristics

   it's usually associated with hi-inrush and

   or wildly variable current demands. Pitot

   heaters, hydraulic pumps, etc come to mind.

   For this we recommend MANL style current

   limiters like . . .



 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20090714113240.01e7f670(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img] 



 

   These have very long time constants.



 

 

        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

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