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Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:46 pm Post subject: Spinning

At 01:06 PM 8/15/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin 

training. I plan to get some.

Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor?

Specifically, power off?


	




You just kinda take your foot off the left rudder pedal

or quite pulling back on the stick. It doesn't want

to keep spinning unless you make it. At least on mine.

Don't think you'll want much power either, since your nose

will be pointed at the ground anyway.



Here's some pictures from the wing.



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=897400447222498104

_________________
Possum

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: Spinning

Possums

Your video is great. Thanx for showing everyone that a Kolb  can be  

spun if it's in  rig and the pilot is experienced/careful. It looks  

as tho a Kolb has no bad habits in a spin. I assume spins in both  

directions are similar?

But this should NOT encourage Kolb  pilots to try this without some  

supervision!

Remember how the old airmail pilots used to spin down thru the cloud  

layer when they were caught on top? A spin is a stable maneuver, with  

fairly low vertical descent speed. Even if the plane impacted the  

ground, the pilot would likely walk away. Dizzy perhaps, but alive.

Besides, they're fun!

Russ K

PS  I admit I've never worked out a really good spin-recover  

technique in  a car on ice.

On Aug 15, 2009, at 5:40 PM, possums wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 01:06 PM 8/15/2009, you wrote:

> 

> <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net>

>

> I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin  

> training. I plan to get some.

> Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor?

> Specifically, power off?

 You just kinda take your foot off the left rudder pedal

 or quite pulling back on the stick. It doesn't want

 to keep spinning unless you make it. At least on mine.

 Don't think you'll want much power either, since your nose

 will be pointed at the ground anyway.

 Here's some pictures from the wing.

 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=897400447222498104

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:16 pm Post subject: Spinning

Possums C

  

   After watching the video of you and your Firestar spins C I get the impression that you;

  

 A) had to make the Firestar spin

 B) were in absolute full control during the spin

 C) could have ended the spin at any time you wanted to end it

 D) were VERY high above the ground

  

   Your video should seem to remove the fear of some stall jumping out and biting some inattentive pilot.  In other words C stalls don't just "happen" C you have to want it to stall.

   Just my observation....

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII progress C stalled on purpose

  

 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Sat C 15 Aug 2009 17:40:00 -0400

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 From: possums(at)bellsouth.net

 Subject: Spinning

 

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: possums <possums(at)bellsouth.net>

 

 At 01:06 PM 8/15/2009 C you wrote:

 >--> Kolb-List message posted by: "dalewhelan" <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net>

 >

 >I am not interested in spinning my Firestar as I have no spin 

 >training. I plan to get some.

 >Is the spin recovery technique the same for a Firestar and a tractor?

 >Specifically C power off?

 

 

 You just kinda take your foot off the left rudder pedal

 or quite pulling back on the stick. It doesn't want

 to keep spinning unless you make it. At least on mine.

 Don't think you'll want much power either C since your nose

 will be pointed at the ground anyway.

 

 Here's some pictures from the wing.

 

 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=897400447222498104 

 

======================
	


&gt============

[quote] 

 

 

Get free photo software from Windows Live Click here.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:02 pm Post subject: Spinning

At 07:06 PM 8/15/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Possums,

  

   After watching the video of you and your Firestar spins, I get the impression that you;

  

 A) had to make the Firestar spin

 B) were in absolute full control during the spin

 C) could have ended the spin at any time you wanted to end it

 D) were VERY high above the ground

 	


 Yeah - Beauford told me to cut the power, stomp on the rudder pedal,

 yank the stick back as far as it would go and see if I could

 count to ten.  Done four - don't think I want to do ten.

 Air speed never got over 65 mph ........like he said. 

 Mine doesn't seem to wind up much though. I could see how you could

 use it to get through a cloud layer if you knew you had 2,000 feet 

 or so of clear air above the ground. I've done it the other way, and

 I didn't like it much - takes too long and I didn't know which was is

 up after a minute or two.



  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6787107193246239411



 "Neutral does it for the firefly... soon as I turn it loose it stops rotation

 and begins to fly...no opposite rudder or forward pop on the stick 

 needed...highest I have seen on ASI is 65 while it was spinning...

 It does spin nose almost straight down...not like a cub or champ....feels 

 different...also likes to wind up... 3 turns is most I have let it go, but 

 it was still winding up when I released the back pressure and inside 

 rudder... I betcha an 8 or 10 turn doober could be eye-watering.  I ain't 

 gonna find out."

 Beauford T



 

     [quote][b]

_________________
Possum

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:53 pm Post subject: Spinning

> Remember how the old airmail pilots used to spin down thru the cloud

 	  Quote: 	
		   layer when they were caught on top? A spin is a stable maneuver, with 

 fairly low vertical descent speed. Even if the plane impacted the  ground, 

 the pilot would likely walk away. Dizzy perhaps, but alive.

 Besides, they're fun!

 Russ K


	




Russ K:



Think you wrote about this once before.



I don't recommend you try spinning any airplane into the ground.  I can 

assure you, you will not walk away and you will not be dizzy.  You will 

probably not be alive.



I don't know what the school definition is of a spin, but to me it is not a 

stable maneuver.  To me, it is an uncontrolled maneuver until control is 

regained when exiting the spin.



In a Kolb, the nose is nearly straight down, and it seems more like a spiral 

than a spin.  I can assure you altitude is rapidly lost.



I've spun every Kolb I have built and owned, but I don't enjoy going out and 

doing spins for fun anymore.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:08 pm Post subject: Spinning

Mike W:

  

 I, personally, don't think there is any control of  a Kolb during a spin, not until after recovery has been initiated and  accomplished.  During the spin there is really nothing to do except bite  holes in the seat cushion.

  

 My original Firestar had to have the controls  crossed up and locked to spin, and then it would only spin a half turn and fly  out of the spin with the controls still locked.  That was with the engine  at idle.  While experimenting with engine off aerobatics, I tried a  spin.  Dead stick,it spun up and would not recover until control was  relaxed on stick and pedals.

  

 The MKIII, being a much heavier aircraft than the  Firestar falls out of the sky in a spin.  Can't remember how many feet it  takes to recovery from time of initiation to recovery in a one revolution spin,  but it is enough to warn you not to try one close to the ground.

  

 Inadvertent stalls only occur when the pilot is not  paying attention, has diversion of attention, and is usually close to the  ground.  It is the inattentive pilot that is going to bite the dust.   Stalls do happen.  The desire to stall does not have to be part of the  equation by any means.

  

 Kolbs are not prone to spin.  One reason is  the outboard end of the wing does not stall, therefore we still have  aileron/roll control and some lift to keep a wing from dropping.  However,  if you stall close to the ground, you probably will not have time to recover  before impact.

  

 Unlike some of the pilots on this List, I keep a  cross check of my ASI when I am close to the ground, and especially during  landing.  Only takes me an instant to know where my ASI needle is  pointing.  I don't have to stare at the ASI to know how fast I am  flying.  It is the only way to know if I am keeping a safe margin above the  stall.  Even more important when winds are changing direction on me.   I can not use perceived ground speed as an airspeed reference to keep me above  the stall.

  

 One can get away with a lot of "stuff" in a Kolb,  but it is that one little incident that will get you.

  

 Been there and done that, more than once.   Hopefully, I am learning.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

  

 [quote]      After watching the video of you and    your Firestar spins, I get the impression that you;

 

A) had to    make the Firestar spin

B) were in absolute full control during the    spin

C) could have ended the spin at any time you wanted to end it

D)    were VERY high above the ground

 

  Your video should seem to    remove the fear of some stall jumping out and biting some inattentive    pilot.  In other words, stalls don't just "happen", you have to want it    to stall.

  Just my observation....

 

Mike    Welch

 

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Spinning

Stalls in my M3X are so gentle you don't even lose any altitude....they are fun to do...you can really learn how to fly it right on the edge of slow flight with out worrying about whats going to happen.I did some stalls last week in mine and recorded it...take a look....and notice all the stalling I was doing..I lost no altitude..I will have the outside view next time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHpS2rqp2bk 



chris ambrose

M3X/jab    47.1hrs

N327CS

eagle1live(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:48 pm Post subject: Spinning

When I got my pilot training many years ago in 1947. We did spin training training as part of our lessons. This was in an old (new at the time) 1946  "Air Nocker" Champ. We were required to call out the number of turns we we we were going to make and also the heading, any at North      South or East or West or any 90 degree heading. For me, it was a lot of fun. I could come out on my heading every time very easy. The Champ spun rather flat and not very fast so  it was no problem. My flight instructor ( An ex Marine Corsier fighter pilot) also told me it was an easy to Way to lose altitude.

     BUT, I have bulit and flown a Hi Max, a Firestar and a Firestar II and I never attemped to spin any of those because I didn't know how they would react.

     I therefore would not recomend doing it in any of our Kolbs unless talking to someone who had done it a number of times to see how it would react. Also no Kolb is built exactly as yours..

     For what its worth.

       The Old Az. Bald Eagle



 

   From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 8:00:16 PM

Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Spinning



 .hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;} BODY.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Verdana;}   Mike W:

  

 I, personally, don't think there is any control of a Kolb during a spin, not until after recovery has been initiated and accomplished.  During the spin there is really nothing to do except bite holes in the seat cushion.

  

 My original Firestar had to have the controls crossed up and locked to spin, and then it would only spin a half turn and fly out of the spin with the controls still locked.  That was with the engine at idle.  While experimenting with engine off aerobatics, I tried a spin.  Dead stick,it spun up and would not recover until control was relaxed on stick and pedals.

  

 The MKIII, being a much heavier aircraft than the Firestar falls out of the sky in a spin.  Can't remember how many feet it takes to recovery from time of initiation to recovery in a one revolution spin, but it is enough to warn you not to try one close to the ground.

  

 Inadvertent stalls only occur when the pilot is not paying attention, has diversion of attention, and is usually close to the ground.  It is the inattentive pilot that is going to bite the dust.  Stalls do happen.  The desire to stall does not have to be part of the equation by any means.

  

 Kolbs are not prone to spin.  One reason is the outboard end of the wing does not stall, therefore we still have aileron/roll control and some lift to keep a wing from dropping.  However, if you stall close to the ground, you probably will not have time to recover before impact.

  

 Unlike some of the pilots on this List, I keep a cross check of my ASI when I am close to the ground, and especially during landing.  Only takes me an instant to know where my ASI needle is pointing.  I don't have to stare at the ASI to know how fast I am flying.  It is the only way to know if I am keeping a safe margin above the stall.  Even more important when winds are changing direction on me.  I can not use perceived ground speed as an airspeed reference to keep me above the stall.

  

 One can get away with a lot of "stuff" in a Kolb, but it is that one little incident that will get you.

  

 Been there and done that, more than once.  Hopefully, I am learning.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		      After watching the video of you and your Firestar spins, I get the impression that you;

 

A) had to make the Firestar spin

B) were in absolute full control during the spin

C) could have ended the spin at any time you wanted to end it

D) were VERY high above the ground

 

  Your video should seem to remove the fear of some stall jumping out and biting some inattentive pilot.  In other words, stalls don't just "happen", you have to want it to stall.

  Just my observation....

 

Mike Welch

 

[b] 	




            [quote][b]

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Spinning

Thanks guys

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:43 am Post subject: Spinning

John C



 



  My observation of Possums' video gave me the impression he had control of the spin C that is; entering it C how long it lasted C and when he decided to end it.  I agree with you that during the actual spin you don't really have any "flight control" C except when you end it.



 



  Personally C I've never spun any aircraft I've flown C nor do I plan to.  Not my cup of tea.



I was just making an observation that Kolbs seem to be a reasonably docile airplane C and not 



some "scary out of control flight-trap".

 



  I also made the observation Stan was VERY high above the ground.  Regardless of whatever aerobatic flight manuever a person might try C they need to do it way up high C to allow plenty of time for recovery C or as a last resort C a ballistic chute attempt. 



  In my opinion C doing a high risk manuever close to the ground C including an excessive climb out C are asking for trouble.  



 



  I am curious how you feel  "One reason is the outboard end of the wing does not stall".  



I  have not heard that before.  Since the Kolb aircraft wings do not have any "washout" built into them C why would the outboard wing act any different than any other portion of the wing.



I'm not arguing with you C just curious why you said that.



 



  BTW C I keep the same attention level close to the ground as you do.  A good pilot would be aware of his airspeed (on approach) C and the airspeed indicator can NOT be the only way to monitor one's airspeed.  They need to have a "feel" for how the airplane is acting C too.  When I went through flight training C my instructor used to cover up the flight instruments C just to make sure I wasn't ONLY relying on just the instruments.



 



Mike Welch



MkIII



 

From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Spinning

Date: Sat C 15 Aug 2009 22:00:16 -0500





Mike W:

 

I C personally C don't think there is any control of a Kolb during a spin C not until after recovery has been initiated and accomplished.  During the spin there is really nothing to do except bite holes in the seat cushion

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:44 am Post subject: Spinning

List

I certainly don't want to start another long thread.

Of course John is right, and I don't recommend spinning into the  

ground either.

I only know what I've been told about the airmail pilots;  how their  

wood-and-fabric aircraft would break up in a crash, and (reportedly)  

the pilot usually lived thru it. But maybe I've believed too much. I  

have no first-hand or second-hand, or even third-hand experience  

here. I should have emphasized that the old  biplanes had low  

vertical descent speeds in a spin; not  like modern aircraft.

I do think a spin is a stable maneuver in that it doesn't change by  

itself. The pilot can either let the aircraft keep spinning, or bring  

it out of the spin.

They used to require spins in pilot training, then only  'an approach  

to a spin'. This at least let the student know what it felt like,  

just before the spin developed. I suspect the change occurred because  

of too many accidents.

Good idea to stay away from them.

Do we have a CFI on the list who has some input?

Russ K

On Aug 15, 2009, at 10:40 PM, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 > Remember how the old airmail pilots used to spin down thru the cloud

> layer when they were caught on top? A spin is a stable maneuver,  

> with fairly low vertical descent speed. Even if the plane impacted  

> the  ground, the pilot would likely walk away. Dizzy perhaps, but  

> alive.

> Besides, they're fun!

> Russ K

 Russ K:

 Think you wrote about this once before.

 I don't recommend you try spinning any airplane into the ground.  I  

 can assure you, you will not walk away and you will not be dizzy.   

 You will probably not be alive.

 I don't know what the school definition is of a spin, but to me it  

 is not a stable maneuver.  To me, it is an uncontrolled maneuver  

 until control is regained when exiting the spin.

 In a Kolb, the nose is nearly straight down, and it seems more like  

 a spiral than a spin.  I can assure you altitude is rapidly lost.

 I've spun every Kolb I have built and owned, but I don't enjoy  

 going out and doing spins for fun anymore.

 john h

 mkIII

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:33 am Post subject: Spinning

Hi Mike W:

  

 To answer your question about the outboard end of  the wing not stalling:

  

 TNK did tuft tests of the MKIIIc early on in  their development of the MKIIIx.

  

 As soon as stall was initiated the tufts on the  inboard end of the wing would start pulling off the wing, dancing around,  indicating air had seperated from the top of the wing.  The tufts on the  outboard end of the wing stayed glued to the top of the wing all the way to the  end of the bow tip.  Inboard stalled, outboard still flying.

  

 Further, I did some experimenting with my MKIII  just prior to flying to Pennsylvania for Homer's funeral which backed up the  tuft tests.  Playing around with stalls, I pulled the flap handle out of  the detent and let it float between zero and 20 degrees.  As the MKIII  approached the stall, the flaps started a gentle shake, but the ailerons  remained steady.  Further into the stall the flaps and the ailerons were  steady.

  

 If you can get enough angle of attack of the wing,  and hold it there, you can stall the whole wing.  However, it is difficult  if not impossible to hold that steep an attitude for more than a moment.   In a mush/stall, with the stick all the way back to the stop, the Kolb mushes in  a near level attitude.  Most of the time it will gain enough airspeed to  fly back out of the mush/stall with the stick still being held full aft.   

  

 I think what screws folks up is the gentleness of  this maneuver at a safe altitude gives them a false impression that they can pop  right out of a mush/stall any time they wish.  However, close to the ground  it is easy to get into a mush/stall and not get out of it before hitting the  ground because there just isn't enough altitude to complete the  maneuver.

  

 Remember Dale Walen telling us he hit the ground  pretty hard when he was maneuvering close to the ground in his FS with his girl  friend on board.  I imagine he mushed it into the ground when he got too  slow in a steep turn, hit the ground, regained enough airspeed to start flying  again.

  

 I experienced something similar departing Grants,  NM, last May.  Flew out of ground effect, max gross weight, 9300 feet DA,  cross wind in a valley with invisible dust devils in the area of the  airstrip.  I was too low and too slow and too heavy to push the nose down  to recover.  I kept the throttle wide open, kept the nose up with aft  stick, kept the wings level.  The wind blew me off the runway to the  left.  I hit in the sand between the sage brush extremely hard, thinking I  was going to spread the main gear legs, kept the throttle wide open, bounced  back into the air, and was flying again, however poorly.  Bruce C and John  B took off ahead of me, experienced the same thing, but were able to keep from  hitting the ground.  Was not a fun experience, but it got our utmost  attention after that, and we learned a lot.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

  

  

  

  

 I am curious how you feel  "One reason is the outboard end of the wing does not  stall". 

  

   

Mike Welch

 

   [quote][b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:39 am Post subject: Spinning

did some stalls last week in mine and recorded it...take a look....and 

notice all the stalling I was doing..I lost no altitude..

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 chris ambrose


	




If your Kolb flies like my Kolb, the inboard end of the wings stalls first 

and the aircraft goes into a gentle mush/stall because the outboard end of 

the wing is still providing some lift.  A lot of Kolb aircraft have mushed 

into the ground in a level attitude, spread the gear or worse, and the 

pilots walked away, thinking they were still flying and wondering why they 

were losing altitude.  Some of those pilots did not walk away.



If you get enough angle of attack, the entire wing stalls.  The pilot will 

recognize this as a normal stall, like in a Cessna.   But with enough 

altitude, the Kolb will fly out of it.



Not long ago I was trying to get back into the groove after laying off 

flying since I returned from out West the end of May, getting ready to fly 

to Homer's in mid-July.  I was playing around with slow flight, stalls, 

steep turns, and placed the the flap handle between zero and 20 degrees, 

letting the handle float in that position.  As I approached the stall the 

flaps would shake.  In all the flying I have done in this airplane, this is 

the first time I had observed this.  As I got further into the stall the 

flaps would stop shaking, but the ailerons never shook.  That, to me, was an 

indication the inboard end of the wing is stalling before the outboard end.



I don't think I ever stalled a Kolb and not lost altitude.  Experiementing 

with the Kolb I can nibble at the mush/stall and it doesn't seem like I have 

lost any altitude because it is so gentle.  This can get pilots in trouble 

because the airplane remains in a level attitude, but it is in a stall.  Our 

head tells us we are flying because we are level.  Our heads are telling us 

if we were stalling, the nose would be down.



In the early years of flying Kolbs, I experimented quite a bit with 

different flying techniques, unusual attitudes, aerobatics, trying to learn 

all I could about flying these little airplanes.  A lot of the experimenting 

I did was well outside the design flight envelope, but I would not have 

found out how they flew if I had not gone there.  Would I do that kind of 

flying now that I have learned the hard way several times?  Not hardly, but 

I wouldn't give a million dollars for the experience.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:56 am Post subject: Spinning

Kolbers,



When I began flying lessons, recovery from spins was a requirement.  Later 

on I flew sailplanes for a a couple of years.  Since you are primarily in 

continuos slow flight just above stall most of the time, it was important to 

experience spins and recovery.



As I under stand it the FAA stopped requiring spin recovery training, due to 

the fact that most spins were experienced during transition to and from the 

ground.  And since most of the resultant effects could not be countered did 

not feel that training was essential.



I still believe that spin and spin recovery should be taught, as it can give 

you a lot of important information about your aircraft.  My original 

FireFly, was very twitchy and when I would pull it up into a low powered 

stall, I had to kick rudder to pick a wing as it mushed forward.  If I 

didn't it would roll over into a spin.  Later I mounted VG's and it improved 

the airflow over the ailerons, so that a wing would not drop, and the 

FireFly just went into a forward mush.  The twitchyness went away.  One 

could advance the throttle and hold altitude, and with a little aileron 

input, rotate the FireFly without dropping a wing.  One had to force it into 

a spin.  Then I mounted the Victor 1+ and I moved the propeller off to one 

side to prevent the addition of a trim tab to the rudder.  This improved 

overall cruise performance but the asymmetrical thrust over the wings 

dramatically changed the stall characteristics.  The left wing receives 

greater propeller coverage, and so the right wing will always stall first.  

With little power, one can hold it up with rudder.  Under power the right 

wing will warn you with a "wump" and then the flow will re-attach, and it 

you persist in adding more back stick, the right wing will drop and over you 

go.



This is the price I have to pay for asymmetrical thrust to keep weight down 

and to increase cruise performance.  But I would not have found how the 

FireFly would respond if I had not taken it up to altitude and checked it 

out.  



FWIW



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: Spinning

My original

 	  Quote: 	
		   FireFly, was very twitchy and when I would pull it up into a low powered

 stall, I had to kick rudder to pick a wing as it mushed forward.  If I

 didn't it would roll over into a spin.



 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN


	




Jack H:



Wouldn't the aileron hold your FF level in a low powered mush?



I never got a chance to "horse around" with the FF more than I could do in 

the traffic patterns of OSH and LAL.  Been so long since I flew it I can't 

remember, but there was something a little unusual about it when slipping, I 

think.  I never flew the original with the huge ailerons, only the ones with 

smaller ailerons.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Spinning

 	  Possums wrote: 	
		  

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=897400447222498104



	




Possums,



What a ride !!!  With no window or anything forward of you in your firestar, you are hanging by your belts looking down at nothing but air in front of you for 2000 feet     I have done hundreds of spins in a Cessna 150 Aerobat, but your position and view in the spin is just insane crazy.  Do you do that often ?  How many turns have  you done ?   That is a really cool video, I hope you keep making new ones.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Spinning

 	  russ(at)rkiphoto.com wrote: 	
		  



I do think a spin is a stable maneuver in that it doesn't change by  

itself. The pilot can either let the aircraft keep spinning, or bring  

it out of the spin.

	




A spin is usually fatal, be it in a biplane, cub, or any other airplane.  Just like the non aviation witness be the best to determine how an airplane was flying before a crash, don't believe everything you hear and read.



The above is not true, a spin can and usually does change a lot depending on how many turns you go through.  This is why many people do not spin past 3 turns or so, spins have a very bad habit if tightening up, getting flatter, and doing all sorts of strange things depending on the airplane and how it is loaded.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:41 am Post subject: Spinning

 	  Quote: 	
		   Mike

You say "A spin is usually fatal, be it in a biplane, cub, or any  

other airplane".  Where did THAT come from ?

Sorry, but I don't believe that for a minute. Not even a half-minute.  

I've seen LOTS of planes spun, with no fatalities.

Even done a few myself, and  I'm still here.

On Aug 16, 2009, at 12:33 PM, JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 russ(at)rkiphoto.com wrote:

> I do think a spin is a stable maneuver in that it doesn't change by

> itself. The pilot can either let the aircraft keep spinning, or bring

> it out of the spin.

>

 A spin is usually fatal, be it in a biplane, cub, or any other  

 airplane.  Just like the non aviation witness be the best to  

 determine how an airplane was flying before a crash, don't believe  

 everything you hear and read.

 The above is not true, a spin can and usually does change a lot  

 depending on how many turns you go through.  This is why many  

 people do not spin past 3 turns or so, spins have a very bad habit  

 if tightening up, getting flatter, and doing all sorts of strange  

 things depending on the airplane and how it is loaded.

 Mike

 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

 as you could have !!!

 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 57990#257990

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject: Spinning

On Aug 16, 2009, at 3:33 PM, russ kinne wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



> Mike

 You say "A spin is usually fatal, be it in a biplane, cub, or any  

 other airplane".  Where did THAT come from ?

 Sorry, but I don't believe that for a minute. Not even a half- 

 minute. I've seen LOTS of planes spun, with no fatalities.

 Even done a few myself, and  I'm still here.



 On Aug 16, 2009, at 12:33 PM, JetPilot wrote:



> 

> russ(at)rkiphoto.com wrote:

>>

>>

>> I do think a spin is a stable maneuver in that it doesn't change by

>> itself. The pilot can either let the aircraft keep spinning, or  

>> bring

>> it out of the spin.

>>

> A spin is usually fatal, be it in a biplane, cub, or any other  

> airplane.  Just like the non aviation witness be the best to  

> determine how an airplane was flying before a crash, don't believe  

> everything you hear and read.

>

> The above is not true, a spin can and usually does change a lot  

> depending on how many turns you go through.  This is why many  

> people do not spin past 3 turns or so, spins have a very bad habit  

> if tightening up, getting flatter, and doing all sorts of strange  

> things depending on the airplane and how it is loaded.

>

> Mike

>

> --------

> &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

> as you could have !!!

>

> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 57990#257990

>

>

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject: Spinning

At 10:22 AM 8/16/09 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Wouldn't the aileron hold your FF level in a low powered mush?



I never got a chance to "horse around" with the FF more than I could do in 

the traffic patterns of OSH and LAL.  Been so long since I flew it I can't 

remember, but there was something a little unusual about it when slipping, I 

think.  I never flew the original with the huge ailerons, only the ones with 

smaller ailerons.




	


John H,



I could not hold the wings level in a low powered mush with the original 

ailerons or the shortened ailerons.  After I mounted the VG's, I did not 

have to worry about picking up a wing with the rudder as the ailerons were 

much more effective.



With the VG's, the FireFly side and forward slips very well with or without 

flaperons. In a side slip one can hold landing strip alignment into a 20 mph 

cross wind.  My rudder is a little longer than that used in the original 

design.  I did not like the bow over the top of the rudder and so I added 

that cut off area to the trailing edge.  After adding streamlining to the 

trailing edge, I believe the trailing edge has been displaced two inches to 

the rear.



Some one on the list asked me about how the FireFly reacted to stalling in a 

side slip during a landing approach.  I added that subject to my short list, 

but I have not gotten around to running the test as I was finishing fuel 

flow tests with the Victor 1+.  When I finish mounting the MZ 34, I will 

climb to altitude and perform the test.



As far as mounting the MZ 34, it is on the cage and everything is mounted.  

I am building up the start and magneto kill switches and the regulator 

mounting plate.  When this is mounted, I can complete all engine wiring.  To 

save weight, I have stripped out all the old Victor 1+ control guides, as I 

have only three control functions instead of six.  And I have to come up 

with some way to control low and high speed air mixture controls inside the 

cockpit.



Off Kolb subject, today I purchased a disassembled Thundergull.  Some hangar 

rash, but nothing serious.  Will put it into the barn until I get the 

FireFly back into the air.  It looks like a nice way to get back into winter 

flying.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

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